Delta TA on SCOPE

[General Lee]

Do you think it will get too 200-300 before it is cut off due to staffing issues?

Depends. There is a wide number of Capts and FOs that probably qualify on different fleets. I've flown with 767 Captains that could hold the 744 but chose not to. There are senior FOs on the 330 that might look at it too, just for the insurance. Critical staffing? You mean SD's email? Delta is still fat on pilots until possible 717s come. This Summer we'll still be down a few percentage points compared to last Summer. Look at the Europe pull down.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Gennerall Lee and Speed Tape,

You both must understand regionalism is here to stay unless we kill it now when we have negotiating leverage. Delta is at a tipping point with spiking costs of an aging 50 seat fleet don't give DAL an out.

Otherwise, DAL, UAL and AMR will establish Ab Initio Programs for their regionals—they won't let their investments die.

If you want to stop puppy pilot regional farms than do so now. The 717s are needed to replace DC9s, they're not all growth. If Delta needs the airframes than they will get them regardless how DALPA votes on this TA.

.

There are only 17 DC9 left, and 88 717s coming over the next three years, plus 25 MD90s this year alone. There are also some routes that can't sustain a 717 or 319, and creating a 76 seat regional airline flown by mainline would be prohibitively expensive, primarily because there would be more than mainline pilots working there, with FAs, mechanics, gate agents, and rampers also. That means mainline wages for everyone, which would be well over and above what current regionals are paid. As a business looking to make profits, that would be unwise, and probably turned down by any board of directors.

The best we can do is try to bring down the numbers in total, get a solid number for a cap, and keep a ratio that finally favors mainline pilots. Any parking of mainline planes would result in parking of RJs. Then, we need tighter scope on INTL joint ventures and domestic code shares like Alaska Air. Those things endanger careers too, even for the RJ guys who eventually want to fly for mainline and want to fly widebodies to far away places. This TA does all of that, with a 19% raise over 3 years. That is pretty good.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Dan Roman]

Again PCL- treat me like a 3rd grader

How does this TA improve scope?

Wave, you often have a lot of good posts on here. However, in this instance PCL has spelled it out pretty clearly with facts and a realistic perspective on scope and DAL's TA. You, on the other hand, are coming across as a bit of a broken record. You are coming across as someone who will attack anything ALPA, no matter what they do.
DAL bumped up the hourly rate for 737 flying (thank you SWAPA for moving it up when you guys were negotiating), they also are turning the scope pendulum around.
We all want to see any airline make gains (as DAL has done), whether we compete with them our not.

 

[waveflyer]

No Dan, I think the current generation of ALPA pilots has done a great disservice to their predecessors- even APA- I don't believe in outsourcing.
First, PCL has not made his case, ive just been enjoying Memorial day. But I'll get to that.

Again, it's ethical-DALPA has stated over and again that they need a false market, created by them and their bosses, where all employees will be constantly whipsawed against each other to artificially keep wages low while simultaneously dangling the "one day you might get to work at mainline" carrot to keep a fresh crop of hopefuls applying, in order to make an expensive 17c/asm airplane profitable. - which I disagree that it ever is- no RJ has ever turned a profit on a leg or route - even with that whipsawed labor market- its the network in total that is profitable- passengers must connect, and frequency must be achieved for that to make sense- but ultimately, don't fool yourself about what the regionals are- a money drain that devalues the profession- it splits the seniority lists and allows startups to have qualified apps who are willing to fly for less than majors, as long as its more than their regional-

But look at the selfishness here as well- they want artificially low wages at regionals in order to make profits that they can take for themselves. ???? WTF is that? How about earning your own profits General? You basically espoused outright theft of other pilots efforts by keeping them institutionally disenfranchised.
Those regional pilots will not get the vote you are about to cast. Remember that. The pilots you throw under the bus for your ********************ING pay raise will never get to vote on how much flying they do so you can steal any profits!!

Then view this in context- all the legacies are currently fighting one scope battle-> LARGER RJs. That's where the fight is at all airlines right now. This DALPA TA makes gains in the 50 seat war that isn't really being fought by anyone- but it consummates the 2006 BK deal that allowed a very non-standard -900 to be flown at regionals. Delta is the strongest legacy right now and it will be very hard for either UAL or AA in weaker bargaining positions to keep -900's in house. And they won't necessarily get the gains at the bottom end- all the BK judge will notice is that the company profiting a $1Billion/year is allowing -900's why shouldn't AA.

 

[General Lee]

Wave,

It's great you are trying to "fight the good fight" here, but why don't you turn your efforts to something you can actually do to benefit people in your own company and future new hires there? Fight the "pay for your own type rating" scheme at SWA! What a crock that is. SWA can afford to pay for their own pilots ratings. Admit it, it is ridiculous. Good luck.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[WolfManPack]

.

There are only 17 DC9 left, and 88 717s coming over the next three years, plus 25 MD90s this year alone. There are also some routes that can't sustain a 717 or 319, and creating a 76 seat regional airline flown by mainline would be prohibitively expensive, primarily because there would be more than mainline pilots working there, with FAs, mechanics, gate agents, and rampers also. That means mainline wages for everyone, which would be well over and above what current regionals are paid. As a business looking to make profits, that would be unwise, and probably turned down by any board of directors.

The best we can do is try to bring down the numbers in total, get a solid number for a cap, and keep a ratio that finally favors mainline pilots. Any parking of mainline planes would result in parking of RJs. Then, we need tighter scope on INTL joint ventures and domestic code shares like Alaska Air. Those things endanger careers too, even for the RJ guys who eventually want to fly for mainline and want to fly widebodies to far away places. This TA does all of that, with a 19% raise over 3 years. That is pretty good.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Who says that all employees that work in or around the RJ have to be mainline employees? Is this part of the certificate for operating them. I know the idea has been tossed around at other shops of basically just having the pilots (and maybe the flight attendants) who operate / work in the airplane would be mainline pilots and everybody else can be outsourced.

Alot of the places we all fly now anyway are outsourced ground workers, maintenance, gate agents, etc. so indeed not everybody affiliated with the operation of a small jet / big jet HAS to be mainline employees is the point here so your premise is incorrect.

Besides, if every mainline carrier brings all the flying onto their property then any competitive disadvantage disappears at that time.

With all due respect General, your assumptions are suspect and if the Delta pilots vote this TA in you will have lowered the profession to another low. One of the Canadian major carriers (Air Canada maybe) flies 70 seat airplanes with mainline employees and they fly them profitably and so can the US carriers. Where are the studies and where are the numbers that say that mainline carriers cannot fly these airplanes profitably? Management could tell us today that pink elephants can fly but that doesn't make it so does it? I don't trust anything management tells me but maybe you do? Let's see the numbers, let's see the proof. All arguments are not valid and I've heard this whole mainline can't fly these airplanes profitably for years but I've never seen proof. I have seen proof that Canadian carriers can fly them and somehow stay in business.

A better overal strategy in my opinion is get those airplanes on a mainline property at a competitve hourly rate and THEN make improvements to rates, etc. over time.

 

[WolfManPack]

Its not, All rates are higher than a regional airline. Pilots (rates and work rules), FA's, Mechanics etc. All lower costs for the 900 than if a mainline did it. Otherwise the regionals would not have been given that flying in the first place.

This is just simply incorrect.

The outsourcing of jobs is not JUST about rates, work rules, etc. It's about CONTROL over pilots, etc. so that there can be whipsawing and an absolute rock bottom cost / liability to the company.

If the pilots would give up their widebodies to be outsourced, then management would take them up on it and form a "shell" company. The sooner you realize that by outsourcing any pilot job that you contribute to this whipsawing then the sooner you'll hopefully vote no to stop it.

 

[aircombat]

Prove me wrong, then. Explain how it's possible for mainline to fly the airplanes for the same cost.

I'm not going to pretend to know all the answers. I'm sure that there are multiple solutions. I do also realize that pilots aren't the only costs to take into consideration. I'm also equally confident that you don't know the individual cost structures. It would probably be much closer then you think when taken all of the overlapping cost into consideration such as multiple CEOs/management.

ALPA always says to their members you don't know the details but I am more than confident that they don't know either. From my experience they don't even know the details of our contract that they negotiated so how are they going to spend the time to be properly educated on cost structures.

If ALPA leaders are educated on these costs they sure do a good job of keeping it a secret from their members. So until they provide me with details I don't want to hear the soapbox speeches.

If I use your argument that mainline can't fly RJs because the regionals can fly them much cheaper I just have one question for you. Why aren't the 717s being awarded to the regionals? I'm sure they can fly those much cheaper as well.

What I do know is that if this profession is to be saved then this needs to be done. Your generation created this problem so the question is are you willing to fix it or is it going to be done the American way and just defer it to another generation?

 

[fam62c]

Wave,

It's great you are trying to "fight the good fight" here, but why don't you turn your efforts to something you can actually do to benefit people in your own company and future new hires there? Fight the "pay for your own type rating" scheme at SWA! What a crock that is. SWA can afford to pay for their own pilots ratings. Admit it, it is ridiculous. Good luck.


Bye Bye---General Lee

For that matter what about pilots who work for his own corporation for 30%-40% less flying 117 to 137 seaters? Show me another major airline pilots group who has allowed this to happen? How can you be proud that you have scope protection for RJ's that your company doesn't want to use anyway yet accept the current situation with AT?

If you want to complain about injustice and be idealistic clean up your own house first. The fact that that SWAPA and it's members are sitting around and watching what's happening (B-scale wages, work rules and constantly declining QOL) at AT and allowing it to happen is a shame upon them.

Stop worrying about Delta; if you want to do some good become the leader of a drive to help your brother and sister pilots within your own corporation who you will be flying with someday. SWAPA is happy to comment on their good fortune of getting many more CA seats as the 717's go away but there wasn't one word about the negative consequences to the AT pilots as the intergation plan keeps changing. How can you call the Delta pilots selfish when you look at the SW/AT situation, are you blind?

 

[Crizz]

This is just simply incorrect.

The outsourcing of jobs is not JUST about rates, work rules, etc. It's about CONTROL over pilots,

I think you're right about control. I have been pondering the pros/cons of continuing the outsource game from DAL management's perspective and wonder this:

In 5 years time, WHO will be flying the new 76 seaters? Have any of you been to your local municipal airport lately? Most flight training FBOs have been boarded up, and the ones still running are a ghost town. Just in my homestate there have been two large university aviation programs that have folded in the last 2 years. The ones still going are surviving on foriegn ab-initio contracts. According to a FED in my jumpseat not long ago, commercial pilot certificate issuances has dropped over 80% from year 2000 levels. And we are about to mandate an ATP for all airline crews.

Supposedly DAL has 6000 applications on file. Fedex has about the same. Southwest has thousands too... Of those applicants, how many overlap? Id argue the ratio of people applying everywhere is very high. Almost every RJ guy I know has their app in at a dozen places right now. So, in 5 years time when every major airline, cargo airline, and LCC is froced into full hiring mode each taking 50-100 a month just to staff attrition (save growth!), how long does this "glut" of applicants remain a "glut." Every day that goes by decreases the likelihood that many senior RJ guys will even want to leave or even apply. Why leave if you are making 100k with a good schedule flying a nice jet to nice places?


I'll never be convinced the costs to outsource these jets is overwhelmingly cheaper than having mainline operate them. Parallel management, training, maintnence, ground ops isnt cheap.

Why cant we be forward looking enough to realize the most control of this feed lies in house -right now- when we can control hiring and ensure our network remains stable.

So I pose this question to DAL management. If control is what you seek, cant you see the writing on the wall? I feel if this TA is approved, we will see an entire segment of our company completely OUT of control within a 5 year time horizon.

 

[Speedtape]

Gennerall Lee and Speed Tape,

You both must understand regionalism is here to stay unless we kill it now when we have negotiating leverage. Delta is at a tipping point with spiking costs of an aging 50 seat fleet don't give DAL an out.

Otherwise, DAL, UAL and AMR will establish Ab Initio Programs for their regionals—they won't let their investments die.

If you want to stop puppy pilot regional farms than do so now. The 717s are needed to replace DC9s, they're not all growth. If Delta needs the airframes than they will get them regardless how DALPA votes on this TA.

With all due respect, you are mistaken if you think there is enough negotiating leverage to eliminate regionals. First, the law would not allow it. Only future growth can be controlled in negotiations, and only to a limited degree. Regionals are here to stay--for now. Pilot shortage and attrition at the bottom will take care of the issue in the long run--at no contractual cost to you.

Your future is in a true mainline aircraft with commensurate pay and benefits and that is what this Contract addresses, with some meaningful scope provisions.

Pick the battles you can win and if your enemy is defeating himself, don't get in the way!

 

[WolfManPack]

Pick the battles you can win and if your enemy is defeating himself, don't get in the way!

The battle is winnable but folks like you have to have the resolve to win it. I'm willing to walk for it, are you?

Pay rates don't mean anything if you have no jobs left to pay you the rate. UAL parked their ENTIRE FLEET of 737 aircraft because of the 70 seat plane.

This is a critical juncture in the profession. What DAL does here will either make it easier, more much more difficult for UAL, et al. to reign in scope.

Remember, today it's the small jet, tomorrow it's the airplane your flying. Protect all mainline jobs NOW!

 

[tomgoodman]

If I use your argument that mainline can't fly RJs because the regionals can fly them much cheaper I just have one question for you. Why aren't the 717s being awarded to the regionals? I'm sure they can fly those much cheaper as well.

Similar thoughts have occurred to others. Shortly after the DAL/WAL merger, a Western Captain warned: "Watch out for Grinstein. He thinks that mainline Delta shouldn't operate anything smaller than a 757."

 

[waveflyer]

Nice distraction General and Fam-
I will not drift toward whatever issues you might have with Swa - I'm speaking from the experience of 6 airlines, including a legacy.
You want to hate on Swa - start another thread and hate on them all day long.
As coach just said- we ALL ARE ACCOUNTABLE IN THIS BUSINESS.
And your distractions are not the issue at hand- do not pretend that the CURRENT DELTA TA WILL NOT HAVE RAMIFICATIONS FOR ALL OTHER CARRIERS- it is absolutely every pilots business what you do -and we're all curious if this generation of DALPA pilots will live up to its responsibilities as the most influential pilot union in the US.
Or do you just want all the pride of being DALPA with none of the responsibility?

What you do now gives every other airline permission to go a step further.

-900's were only allowed under bankruptcy- if you allow more -900's in exchange for 50's you can bet every other major will have leverage and a good argument to do the same-

Or, you can fly the new -900's yourself and apply your own leverage to get that done

 

[xjhawk]

wolfmanpack, I must say you confuse me. The whipsaw game can only occur at regionals and the start of the whipsaw can only occur if two things happen. First, mainline pilots must give up the scope (willingly or unwilling) and the rates must be cheaper to begin with at regionals. How are you saying I am wrong that the rates at regionals are cheaper than at the majors? I am just saying. You are blind to all other posts unless it fits your agenda. IN the past I have not been a fan of some of the things ALPA has done, but I see this as a good start to recapture scope for Delta pilots. You must also realize that this is a Delta pilot decision and one they will make in their best interest. ALPA is set up where each pilot group has its own agenda and will fight for it the best they can. ALPA national can do a lot for us as a group but it cannot make its members do anything.

It would be nice to see ALPA set a bar on healthcare, 401k, sick time, vacation, and you stay at an alpa carrier those go with you. ANything more intrusive of seniority would not be welcomed my most ALPA members as no one wants a new hire to out bid you just because they spend 15 years at a regional ALPA carrier. I went off topic here...sorry. I am just saying you need to open your eyes to what people are saying