Delta Pilots don't check for frost on wings

[relief tube]

I think I speak for most airline pilots.....I don't give a sh-t if you make your connection. My job is to get you there alive and well.

exactly. we dont pick those 35 minute connenctions on orbitz for you. Hell, if there was no orbitz and no internet fare searches you'd actually be paying a fare that actually covers the cost and we wouldn't have lost 40% of our paychecks in this industry.

 

[Wesb737fo]

As far as the original poster, I read about half of his post and the " furloughed DL pilot " indicator lit up. Only to be confirmed by Voice of Reason a few post later.

I guess we haven't heard form Batsky because he checked into the funny farm after realizing what a tool he was. He's probably sitting in front of the television quoting TOP GUN lines....." Maverick...you'll get your RIO when you get to your ship...if not...call me ....I'll fly with you."

 

[Mike man]

I guess we haven't heard form Batsky because he checked into the funny farm after realizing what a tool he was. He's probably sitting in front of the television quoting TOP GUN lines....." Maverick...you'll get your RIO when you get to your ship...if not...call me ....I'll fly with you."

No way...he will post in a day or two with some terrific story about how he was doing something in China or Inner Mongolia for some fractional with growth opportunity, and didn't have internet because it was too primitive of a place but somehow has a need for a GV to fly in executives from Europe to go on a skiing trip with their family.

Or something like that...

 

[ex-nutjeter]

Since everyone seems to have not liked the poster's thread, most of the reply's have been against him, and not about the topic. I want to get back to the topic at hand.

I am curious about something, if a passenger tells you they see frost, so you walk back with a flashlight and look out, make the decision to taxi back to the ramp, but don't go out to do a physical inspection yourself and just decide to wait for the sun? Would it not have made sense to do a tactle touch of the surface as required by the regs? Do they not have ladders at DAB? And I don't remember anything in the regs that says you can't use hot water to get rid of frost?, In places like DAB, that is your only choice, the original poster said the temp was above freezing, so the water would not freeze back anyways.

I guess that is the difference between corporate aviation and airline, we improvise to solve a problem to get out on time, I am not trying to add more fuel to the fire, but com'on guys, there are always ways to make things happen. It is too bad that the old days where the airlines would look out for their number 1 commodity are long gone, the days where they would hold a flight a few minutes so that a passenger would not have to miss their connection, things like that, now we are used to paying for everything and getting bad service for it.

 

[volav8r1]

Since everyone seems to have not liked the poster's thread, most of the reply's have been against him, and not about the topic. I want to get back to the topic at hand.

I am curious about something, if a passenger tells you they see frost, so you walk back with a flashlight and look out, make the decision to taxi back to the ramp, but don't go out to do a physical inspection yourself and just decide to wait for the sun? Would it not have made sense to do a tactle touch of the surface as required by the regs? Do they not have ladders at DAB? And I don't remember anything in the regs that says you can't use hot water to get rid of frost?, In places like DAB, that is your only choice, the original poster said the temp was above freezing, so the water would not freeze back anyways.

I guess that is the difference between corporate aviation and airline, we improvise to solve a problem to get out on time, I am not trying to add more fuel to the fire, but com'on guys, there are always ways to make things happen. It is too bad that the old days where the airlines would look out for their number 1 commodity are long gone, the days where they would hold a flight a few minutes so that a passenger would not have to miss their connection, things like that, now we are used to paying for everything and getting bad service for it.

I was going to ignore this but i just can't. I'm curious where you flew all those airplanes in your profile?

1.) Assuming their is any validity to the original post (which I highly doubt), the crew would have requested a "tactile inspection" of the upper wing. If there was something there they would have de-iced. End of story! If there wasn't deiceing fluid available then there really isn't much choice but to wait till the contaminant melted.

The reason I ask where you flew all those big airplanes, is I would love to know which airline has a "Just throw some hot water on the wing" clause in their deice specs. Maybe the temp was above freezing, but even boiling hot water will cool very quickly when thrown on a cold soaked wing! especially when you take into account there is freezing cold fuel in that wing. Congratulations! You succeeded in melting the frost, but now you have a sheet of clear ice on a criticle surface! Seriously? You have never seen in the regs where it prohibits this?! Think about that statement! The regs don't specifically state I can't shut down both engines at 10,000 feet and coast in to the airport then restart & taxi to the gate either, but would that be a good idea?

Maybe in the Corporate Aviation world there is "always a way to make things happen". But in the "Airline World" we operate under a little thing called "SOP" (Standard Operating Proceedure). Maybe you are willing to put your ticket on the line to get "Mr. CEO" to TEB on time, but I am not at all willing to do the same to get people like the original poster to ATL in time to make a connection that he really had NO WAY of making anyway.

"Throw some hot water on it"!.....HA, that's a good one!!

 

[ex-nutjeter]

I wasn't looking at picking a fight, but how do you know that the fuel was freezing? Is it stored above ground, underground?? makes a difference..

Also, I never relied on someone else doing the "Tactle Inspection", I guess you are willing to risk you ticket on someone else telling you it is OK? You are the PIC, you are solely responsible, the blame will be on you no matter what someone else tells you.

You will loose your ticket for taking off with a contaminated wing, but to remove the contamination with hot water is not illegal, I have never seen that written in any SOP's that I have copies of. I have a copy of a Hot Water deicing procedures manual if you want. It is co-written by Transport Canada and the FAA. I have asked this question to a POI that I know, not illegal as long as it is not forbiden in your specific SOP's...

As to this guys flight, He said he was leaving DAB at 0600, if you look up the flights on delta.com, simple check, he would have had over an hour to make his connection to SMF, that is not tight, pretty normal, would have been easy to check before everyone nailed him for making a tight connection

 

[volav8r1]

I wasn't looking at picking a fight, but how do you know that the fuel was freezing? Is it stored above ground, underground?? makes a difference..

Also, I never relied on someone else doing the "Tactle Inspection", I guess you are willing to risk you ticket on someone else telling you it is OK? You are the PIC, you are solely responsible, the blame will be on you no matter what someone else tells you.

You will loose your ticket for taking off with a contaminated wing, but to remove the contamination with hot water is not illegal, I have never seen that written in any SOP's that I have copies of. I have a copy of a Hot Water deicing procedures manual if you want. It is co-written by Transport Canada and the FAA. I have asked this question to a POI that I know, not illegal as long as it is not forbiden in your specific SOP's...

As to this guys flight, He said he was leaving DAB at 0600, if you look up the flights on delta.com, simple check, he would have had over an hour to make his connection to SMF, that is not tight, pretty normal, would have been easy to check before everyone nailed him for making a tight connection

Not trying to pick a fight either. I have been doing this a long time so maybe i am just jaded by the airline game. There is a reason this is the safest sysyem in the world, its because we do NOT allow our pilots to just make up thier own proceedures. Throwing Water on a contaminated wing is NOT a good option. If it is cold enough for frost to form (whatever caused it) then introducing water without some form of Glycol mixed in, is a BAD idea, period! I am going to go out on a limb here and state that I doubt you will find a single OPS Spec at any 121 carrier that allows throwing water of any kind on the wings to melt ice. I can't believe i'm even having this discussion.

As far as relying on someone else to do your wing inspection, thats the way we do it at the airlines. We are not talking about wings that you can see the top of from the ramp. We are talking about Commercial Airliner wings that are between 10 and 30 feet in the air. I spent a lot of years on the 747 flying out of Anchorage. You couldn't see the top of that wing from the ramp if you wanted to. Much less put your hand on it to check it! When the conditions warranted we called for an "Upperwing Inspection". We rely on the trained personnel to tell us if we are contaminated or not. This is the approved proceedure by the FAA and our airline. NWA/DAL tells me this is how its done so thats the way I do it. On the other hand, if a pilot notices ice of any kind (outside our approved tolerances, in our ops specs) then we deice no matter what.

You are comparing Part 121 ops to, what i'm assuming, is Part 91 ops. Totally different animals!!! I will end this discussion from my end by emphasising that throwing water on a wing is NOT an approved proceedure at a 121 airline (for Damn good reason). Even if you could find enough hot water it is a bad idea for a myriad of reasons! I would think someone with the "Big" airplane experience you claim to have would understand 121 ops a little better. Or where those airplanes all flown in Part 91 ops.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

No time today...just a couple of many shenanigans

Hey all looks like the OP, batsky2000 has another screen name
ex-nutjeter instead of coming back as "himself". No time for the whole thing but here's two that point to same person...many others, including many airline bashing ones and bragging of many FF points and claiming whatever experience a given thread calls for

ex-nutjeter[/B];1954857]Since everyone seems to have not liked the poster's thread, most of the reply's have been against him, and not about the topic. I want to get back to the topic at hand.

I am curious about something, if a passenger tells you they see frost, so you walk back with a flashlight and look out, make the decision to taxi back to the ramp, but don't go out to do a physical inspection yourself and just decide to wait for the sun? Would it not have made sense to do a tactle touch of the surface as required by the regs? Do they not have ladders at DAB? And I don't remember anything in the regs that says you can't use hot water to get rid of frost?, In places like DAB, that is your only choice, the original poster said the temp was above freezing, so the water would not freeze back anyways.

I guess that is the difference between corporate aviation and airline, we improvise to solve a problem to get out on time, I am not trying to add more fuel to the fire, but com'on guys, there are always ways to make things happen. It is too bad that the old days where the airlines would look out for their number 1 commodity are long gone, the days where they would hold a flight a few minutes so that a passenger would not have to miss their connection, things like that, now we are used to paying for everything and getting bad service for it.

5-16-2006 Just to mix things up a bit, Frontier has some real winners for captains, a captain who will remain nameless, while checking for contamination on the wings, could not see past the frost on the window at the emergency exit, opened the window and inflated the slide over the wing, well I guess it became contaminated then with a slide

"well folks we have a winner"

02-22-2007, 23:53 #15 ex-nutjeter
Registered User

Posts: 62
Civ/Mil: Both
A/C Flown: B-757,B-767,B-727,B-737,A319,CE-750
Ratings: ATP - look above
Total Time: 12,000


Just to give you guys a heads up on how fast the process is, I went to the Decenber 12th open house, was invited for a Feb. 2nd interview, got the e-mail that I passed phase 1 a week later on Feb. 9th, got a call from a recruiter on Feb. 13th that offered me an A320 class that starts Feb. 28th.

They are filling classes for both aircraft, just depends on your background, I have A320 time and Heavy PIC time in a B737, so I got the A320.

The speed in which you get a class depends on how fast you get through the background checks, I only had my current and 1 other employer since they only go back 5 years, and they both responded rather quickly with the PRIA paperwork.

Besides that, I was still suprised that I was offered a class that fast, in the e-mail that I got that said that I passed phase 1, it said that it could take up to 2 months to get a class, but then again, if your backgrond check go's smothly, then all is good.

Hope to get FLL Base, I am only 2 hours drive from there, so for any of the B6 pilots out there, how soon could I expect FLL as a newhire?

Good luck to you guys

 

[Griswold]

Hey all looks like the OP, batsky2000 has another screen name
ex-nutjeter instead of coming back as "himself". No time for the whole thing but here's two that point to same person...many others, including many airline bashing ones and bragging of many FF points and claiming whatever experience a given thread calls for





02-22-2007, 23:53 #15 ex-nutjeter
Registered User

Posts: 62
Civ/Mil: Both
A/C Flown: B-757,B-767,B-727,B-737,A319,CE-750
Ratings: ATP - look above
Total Time: 12,000


Just to give you guys a heads up on how fast the process is, I went to the Decenber 12th open house, was invited for a Feb. 2nd interview, got the e-mail that I passed phase 1 a week later on Feb. 9th, got a call from a recruiter on Feb. 13th that offered me an A320 class that starts Feb. 28th.

They are filling classes for both aircraft, just depends on your background, I have A320 time and Heavy PIC time in a B737, so I got the A320.

The speed in which you get a class depends on how fast you get through the background checks, I only had my current and 1 other employer since they only go back 5 years, and they both responded rather quickly with the PRIA paperwork.

Besides that, I was still suprised that I was offered a class that fast, in the e-mail that I got that said that I passed phase 1, it said that it could take up to 2 months to get a class, but then again, if your backgrond check go's smothly, then all is good.

Hope to get FLL Base, I am only 2 hours drive from there, so for any of the B6 pilots out there, how soon could I expect FLL as a newhire?

Good luck to you guys

Did you not want to wait for your SW class

 

[volav8r1]

I still want to know where he got his B-757/767, B737, B727, A320, etc.. time. Some of the things he said just don't add up to come from someone with all that experience. All in all I guess it doesn't matter.

Have a good weekend guys