Delta Pilots don't check for frost on wings

[ex-nutjeter]

I give up, you have one guy VOR who has no Reason other than to dig up whatever he feels like without putting any input of his own, just another Jerry Springer wanna be...Then you got someone else that tells me you can't use hot water when the FAA and Transport Canada say you can, and have a manual for it.

And for your info, no, I have most of my experience in P135 ops, not much different than P121 ops, in some ways, more restrictive.

To VOR, I am not Batsky200 and I don't care either way who he is, I was just adding to the discussion of the topic, you seem to want to bring a Jerry Springer show to the forum... Good Luck with that!!

 

[ultrarunner]

..hen you got someone else that tells me you can't use hot water when the FAA and Transport Canada say you can, and have a manual for it....

Who cares what manuals the FAA and the Canuks have! Really!

What matters is WHAT is the the DAL FOM! Got it!

And if hosing down the top of the wing with hot water aint in the FOM, that's that!

WHY is that so hard to understand?

 

[ableone]

I believe that the hot water treatment is prohibited at most if not all 121 operations.

 

[General Lee]

Remember this was DAL. Good goes around, great lands on Mike...

Couldn't resist, sorry.

Didn't you just go off the runway in Peoria? Sorry, couldn't resist, and you guys obviously have more experience than a mainline crew flying from LAX to JFK. Sorry, couldn't resist, again.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Metrojet]

Since everyone seems to have not liked the poster's thread, most of the reply's have been against him, and not about the topic. I want to get back to the topic at hand.

I am curious about something, if a passenger tells you they see frost, so you walk back with a flashlight and look out, make the decision to taxi back to the ramp, but don't go out to do a physical inspection yourself and just decide to wait for the sun? Would it not have made sense to do a tactle touch of the surface as required by the regs? Do they not have ladders at DAB? And I don't remember anything in the regs that says you can't use hot water to get rid of frost?, In places like DAB, that is your only choice, the original poster said the temp was above freezing, so the water would not freeze back anyways.

I guess that is the difference between corporate aviation and airline, we improvise to solve a problem to get out on time, I am not trying to add more fuel to the fire, but com'on guys, there are always ways to make things happen. It is too bad that the old days where the airlines would look out for their number 1 commodity are long gone, the days where they would hold a flight a few minutes so that a passenger would not have to miss their connection, things like that, now we are used to paying for everything and getting bad service for it.

If your company sends an aircraft to a station that doesn't have the capability to de-ice/anti -ice, and you encounter ground icing conditions - then you cannot depart. End of story. Because if you decide to go - and this passenger expert has a smart phone with a video - the next thing you know - it will be on you-tube with your flight and date. Is your license worth taking a chance like that in todays world?

This is the real world we operate in today - and you have to understand that when you go to work.

Metrojet

 

[kmox29]

The experience level at the FAA has dropped to an astonishing low as evidenced by their worries about frost. I'm hearing about FED's for major 121 carriers with no 121 or large airplane experience at all.

I disagree. I'm not sure what you mean by "as evidenced by their worries about frost", but I can say in our office we have a very good experience level. Additionally, in our office, every Inspector assigned to an air carrier has 121 experience.

 

[kmox29]

Who cares what manuals the FAA and the Canuks have! Really!

What matters is WHAT is the the DAL FOM! Got it!

And if hosing down the top of the wing with hot water aint in the FOM, that's that!

Absolutely correct. Operations Specifications A023 gives an operator the authorization to operate in known icing conditions. In that Ops Spec, it details the program the authorization is granted under (usually titled 'XYZ Airlines Ground Deicing Program').

If hot water deicing is not part of the A023 program, it doesn't exist for that operator.

 

[UALRATT]

You beat me to it! The only Idiot, Moron, etc... is the original poster. More and more pax these days are becoming beligerent "Backseat" drivers. I would be willing to bet that this specific situation didn't go down exactly like you described it. More than likely the original poster missed his (or her) connection and is a little pi$$ed.

Solution: Stop booking 30 min connections at some of the largest & busiest airports in the world!!! Problem solved! Some of you people sound like my wife...

"why would we take this flight? We are going to have to sit for an hour and 15 mins in detroit when we could take flight "XYZ" and we only have to stay in Detroit for 25 mins"

I have ZERO sympathy for you!!!! Coming on here and blasting a professional flight crew for what sounds to me to be a very suspect senario only shows your ignorance! Do us all a favor and please fly Southwest Airlines next time! They do not get frost!

You know some of the post on here does make sense but your's just sound like it coming from guy who's wife is holding out on him.

First your comment about more and more passengers these days are... I think the poster said that it was a passenger who passed the message of frost on the wing to the FA. Like a true professional the pilot came out to assessed it himself, and using prudent judgement elected to delay the departure (Clean wing policy).

Secondly, you were not present so be quiet.

Third, I have never known of a customer booking a connection. That's taken care of by the airline themselves. Besides, time is money and it's only us pilots who like to sit around airports twiddling our thumbs.

Ok, we don't have to sympathize with them when all most really ever think about is a cheap fare and then get out to the plane expecting whatever.

Look, it sums up everything that is wrong with the system. The mentality that the climate will VFR, 59 degrees C and 29.92 inches of mercury, 365 days of the year so no need to provide the basic of equipment to efficiently conduct your business. A system that measures it's performance on the time it pushes pack from the gate. A system that has to subsidizes it's sale of cheap seats by cutting of most of its fingers.

The question is had the passenger not told the FA about the frost on the wing would it have been a successful takeoff? We'll never know the answer to that but what we do no is that it doesn't take very long for the smallest issue to disrupt our daily patterns. A proper prefight requires visually checking the wing, and using ones understanding of existing limitations such as low light or visibility challenges, along with the knowledge of current atmospheric conditions it would be prudent to uses alternative methods like viewing through the cabin window or heck request a ladder. Fact is it needs to be checked as clean, and viewing limitations doesn't excuse it.

So you should be a bit forgiving to the poster.

 

[Glacialfury1906]

I am curious about something, if a passenger tells you they see frost, so you walk back with a flashlight and look out, make the decision to taxi back to the ramp, but don't go out to do a physical inspection yourself and just decide to wait for the sun? Would it not have made sense to do a tactle touch of the surface as required by the regs? Do they not have ladders at DAB? And I don't remember anything in the regs that says you can't use hot water to get rid of frost?, In places like DAB, that is your only choice, the original poster said the temp was above freezing, so the water would not freeze back anyways.

I guess that is the difference between corporate aviation and airline, we improvise to solve a problem to get out on time, I am not trying to add more fuel to the fire, but com'on guys, there are always ways to make things happen. It is too bad that the old days where the airlines would look out for their number 1 commodity are long gone, the days where they would hold a flight a few minutes so that a passenger would not have to miss their connection, things like that, now we are used to paying for everything and getting bad service for it.

A couple quick questions and no flamebait... When was the last time you did a physical inspection of your 767 wing? How did you get up there? Do you feel like telling the fed that you just "threw some hot water on it" would pass the BS test? I'm honestly curious.....

And honestly, if the (so called) number 1 commodity actually cared about anything outside of how cheap they can get from A to B, they wouldn't wear flip flops, pajama pants, and baggy jeans on the plane. My grandfather always used to say, "you get what you pay for." As long as they can walk off the plane at their destination, I can keep my job/ticket and they can use the plane again, everything else doesn't really matter to me...

 

[ableone]

I disagree. I'm not sure what you mean by "as evidenced by their worries about frost", but I can say in our office we have a very good experience level. Additionally, in our office, every Inspector assigned to an air carrier has 121 experience.

We have an inspector who's heaviest airplane was a king air.

She was not the only one.