Delta Connection Academy...THOUGHTS????

[bobbysamd]

Pressure environment v. oppressive environment

Oppressive environment, as aforementioned by the Denver Broncos guy, you mean pressure environment don't you? Your past experience is not what it is today. People are instructing for 10 months and then flying a . . . . CRJ, it's crazy good.

I mean exactly what I wrote. Oppression. Being treated disrespectfully and inconsiderately. Unfair treatment. As if you are being rubbed against a carborundum stone. For example, the stories about the Comair instructor candidates who lose out on "the interview," and, perhaps, Comair's "promise" of an airline job after but one standardization activity. My experience, after traveling two-thousand miles for a job interview and spending but less than a morning at the place, and not even being given the courtesy of a rejection letter or phone call.

That's what I mean by an oppressive environment.

The truth is that 141 programs are very different. The large, multi-million dollar schools have to worry about tighter FSDO standards, college accreditation, stricter ground schools and stringent 141 requirements.

Considering that I have three times in instructing time alone that you have in total time, with most of it in three separate 141 programs, including a university, an airline/college and a major commercial flight school, and as a stage check/pre-stage check pilot in two of the programs, I probably know more about 141 programs than you do.

All 141 schools, multi-million dollar or not, are under the supervision of FSDO. FSDO must approve a school's TCO and assign a principal operations inspector to each school. Therefore, be it an FBO with 141 training or Comair, 141 schools must meet the same standards. Places with self-examining authority will be under tight scrutiny. College accreditation is another matter.

The truth, again, is 141 programs have specific course outlines with specific numbers of lessons in each. Instructors push in 141 programs and if students are not prepared they will fall behind.

 

[standaman]

The truth, again, is 141 programs have specific course outlines with specific numbers of lessons in each. Instructors push in 141 programs and if students are not prepared they will fall behind.

Thats the way it should be.

 

[wrigley23]

What's up Stan, how's the Nati treating ya?

 

[skydesk]

Traveler's Guide to DCA Standz

Standz Interview Insights and a little Monte Cristo:

1. The Standardization process is two weeks long, you meet all the folks at the Academy, president, VP, etc. and take four written tests, which people rarely have problems with, however Bronco failed it's flight and it had to go home. That was the old-school way. It didn't get a letter telling it any answer which is very abnormal, and realistically a foul-up, you get one these days.
2. You're Standz flight takes place the weekend before class now and if you mess up you DO NOT fail! You get three chances. If you still fail you may Standz again the very next weekend. Do people not make it through? Yes. But most choose to leave because they cannot cope with the change in lifestyle, the hard work or the flight hours. One must have a good attitude and you will have positive focus. Help is everywhere at this place, you just have to ask for it.
3. Everything about the interview and Standz course is intended to be 'Airline identical', in that they don't tell you how you did on the written tests in Standz, like the airlines, but people know exactly how their flights went and that's a real stress reliever.
4. Now Boisterous Bronco - I thought hard about what you said and I apologize to those who must read your callous engagements. (To be fair it is Bronco, neither he nor she) Sadly it didn't get hired by what was then 'Comair', but it sure wanted to, I'm sure it is a good pilot, especially with so many hours, but that doesn't make it's stories quite up-to-date or it's knowledge of 141 regulations better than who it thinks its' talking to. Presumption kills partner, as does old, second-hand information and DA's in AGL. The distance you traveled to your interview matters not. 'Promises' are incorrect. And sadly, in your case, experience dosen't make you a chicken, although the feathers are a nice touch.
You argue to hear yourself and that is tragic as people here seem to be trying to find their way. Right now, I hear you typing away waiting to trounce those you mean to plunder.
Oppression is what your parents did to you by keeping you down in the basement for so many years, oppression is what is happening in Sudan, oppression is what happened and is happening to women and blacks (is this you) for so many centuries and is still happening today, oppression is what glass ceilings are all about, but it is not what is happening here now or what I argue happened to you on your trip to this place many years ago, depite what you say. If oppression to you is being rejected by 'Comair' or not getting a rejection letter (if you like I can write one for you) or a sales person being mean to you: get a dictionary and some scruples; seriously, that word for your meaning? You have semantic blockage. Your quote:

"Considering that I have three times in instructing time alone that you have in total time, with most of it in three separate 141 programs, including a university, an airline and a major commercial flight school, and as a stage check/pre-stage check pilot in two of the programs, I probably know more about 141 programs than you do."
​

I have a 10 year-old friend who speaks a foreign language and the aforementioned is called koshar sher. It means: I can't wait to get home to my warm plate of s**t. Or I prefer: I have nothing better to do than give you my resume in hopes that someone will listen to me or: I can see your Schwartz is as big as mine. Listen.......................,.......................Stick with tax law you are far too bitter to be flying for a living Botacious Bronco.

 

[standaman]

What's up Stan, how's the Nati treating ya?

Doing good Wrig.

Nice picture.

Just sent you a private message.

 

[bobbysamd]

Standz Interview Insights

and a little Monte Cristo:

1. The Standardization process is two weeks long, you meet all the folks at the Academy, president, VP, etc. and take four written tests, which people rarely have problems with, however Bronco failed it's flight and it had to go home. That was the old-school way. It didn't get a letter telling it any answer which is very abnormal, and realistically a foul-up, you get one these days.
2. You're Standz flight takes place the weekend before class now and if you mess up you DO NOT fail! You get three chances. If you still fail you may Standz again the very next weekend. Do people not make it through? Yes. But most choose to leave because they cannot cope with the change in lifestyle, the hard work or the flight hours. One must have a good attitude and you will have positive focus. Help is everywhere at this place, you just have to ask for it.
3. Everything about the interview and Standz course is intended to be 'Airline identical', in that they don't tell you how you did on the written tests in Standz, like the airlines, but people know exactly how their flights went and that's a real stress reliever.
4. Now Boisterous Bronco - I thought hard about what you said and I apologize to those who must read your callous engagements. (To be fair it is Bronco, neither he nor she) Sadly it didn't get hired by what was then 'Comair', but it sure wanted to, I'm sure it is a good pilot, especially with so many hours, but that doesn't make it's stories quite up-to-date or it's knowledge of 141 regulations better than who it thinks its' talking to. Presumption kills partner, as does old, second-hand information and DA's in AGL. The distance you traveled to your interview matters not. 'Promises' are incorrect. And sadly, in your case, experience dosen't make you a chicken, although the feathers are a nice touch.
You argue to hear yourself and that is tragic as people here seem to be trying to find their way. Right now, I hear you typing away waiting to trounce those you mean to plunder.
Oppression is what your parents did to you by keeping you down in the basement for so many years, oppression is what is happening in Sudan, oppression is what happened and is happening to women and blacks (is this you) for so many centuries and is still happening today, oppression is what glass ceilings are all about, but it is not what is happening here now or what I argue happened to you on your trip to this place many years ago, depite what you say. If oppression to you is being rejected by 'Comair' or not getting a rejection letter (if you like I can write one for you) or a sales person being mean to you: get a dictionary and some scruples; seriously, that word for your meaning? You have semantic blockage. Your quote:

"Considering that I have three times in instructing time alone that you have in total time, with most of it in three separate 141 programs, including a university, an airline and a major commercial flight school, and as a stage check/pre-stage check pilot in two of the programs, I probably know more about 141 programs than you do."
​

I have a 10 year-old friend who speaks a foreign language and the aforementioned is called koshar sher. It means: I can't wait to get home to my warm plate of s**t. Or I prefer: I have nothing better to do than give you my resume in hopes that someone will listen to me or: I can see your Schwartz is as big as mine.Listen.......................,.................... ...Stick with tax law you are far too bitter to be flying for a living Botacious Bronco.

These comments speak for themselves and reveal everything about their writer. Except for the fact that I do not practice tax law, I have no further response to this poster.

I stand by all of my representations on this topic.

 

[jppt2000]

Botacious Bronco,
AKA BoobySamd
Bitter and angry is an understatement, I was wondering,
Booby is very much against the evils of PFT, yet he was interviewing for a PFT outfit in the early 90's.

 

[SMOE]

Botacious Bronco,
AKA BoobySamd
Bitter and angry is an understatement, I was wondering,
Booby is very much against the evils of PFT, yet he was interviewing for a PFT outfit in the early 90's.

I never thought I'd be defending DCA after they flushed me down the toilet but I will say in their defense THEY ARE NOT PFT! They are more than happy to take an extremely large chunk of money from the ill-informed they rope in with the promise of an interview. However, they do provide excellent training NOT focused towards a particular operation/airline and you don't automatically land yourself in a right seat turbine job like Gulfstream or TAB.

jppt2000 and skydesk, how about showing some respect for others' opinions. I find it amazing that if someone posts an opinion not to your liking you resort to a 13 year old's maturity level and start name-calling. Are you guys DCA instructors? Real grade-school guys. If you read some more of his postings, you'll find Bobbysamd's info to be dead-nuts on target.

 

[bobbysamd]

Botacious Bronco,
AKA BoobySamd
Bitter and angry is an understatement, I was wondering,
Booby is very much against the evils of PFT, yet he was interviewing for a PFT outfit in the early 90's.

Answering this individual is not worth the time and bandwidth. Review of this thread will show that this person has at least a two-year record on this board of reveling in others' hard luck and fleeing when confronted.

Review of the facts will show that in 1991, when I interviewed at CAA, it was just a 141 program that offered Comair Airlines interviews and had no P-F-T program. CAA established its P-F-T program in 1992-'93 and eventually abolished that program.

By the way, the word is spelled "bodacious."

 

[saviboy]

DCA is doing PFT now?

Botacious Bronco,
AKA BoobySamd
Bitter and angry is an understatement, I was wondering,
Booby is very much against the evils of PFT, yet he was interviewing for a PFT outfit in the early 90's.

 

[bender]

4. Now Boisterous Bronco - I thought hard about what you said and I apologize to those who must read your callous engagements. (To be fair it is Bronco, neither he nor she) Sadly it didn't get hired by what was then 'Comair', but it sure wanted to, I'm sure it is a good pilot, especially with so many hours, but that doesn't make it's stories quite up-to-date or it's knowledge of 141 regulations better than who it thinks its' talking to. Presumption kills partner, as does old, second-hand information and DA's in AGL. The distance you traveled to your interview matters not. 'Promises' are incorrect. And sadly, in your case, experience dosen't make you a chicken, although the feathers are a nice touch.
You argue to hear yourself and that is tragic as people here seem to be trying to find their way. Right now, I hear you typing away waiting to trounce those you mean to plunder. Oppression is what your parents did to you by keeping you down in the basement for so many years, oppression is what is happening in Sudan, oppression is what happened and is happening to women and blacks (is this you) for so many centuries and is still happening today, oppression is what glass ceilings are all about, but it is not what is happening here now or what I argue happened to you on your trip to this place many years ago, depite what you say. If oppression to you is being rejected by 'Comair' or not getting a rejection letter (if you like I can write one for you) or a sales person being mean to you: get a dictionary and some scruples; seriously, that word for your meaning? You have semantic blockage

Dang, yur one of them angry tards ain't ya!

 

[jppt2000]

Where's the luv Booby?
Oh uh, Where's the love Booby?
Booby is a paralegal, not a tax lawyer.
Since those schools didn't hire him, he rants about age discrimination and the evils of PFT.
Boob, with your attitude,
I'm willing to bet your future at Comair along with whatever carrier you interviewed at was determined in the first few minutes of the interview.
It's hard to imagine spending 4, 5, 6 days out on the line with you.
The only person(s) I've argued with the most on a regular basis,
is you.
I think you have other login names also, along with some major issues.
Oh, I never take pleasure in someone's bad luck.
I do however get tired of people who blame the system rather than themselves.

 

[jppt2000]

By the way, the word is spelled "bodacious."[/QUOTE]

Yupper Boob, or Phil maybe?
just used the spelling of previous poster.

To borrow from your previous example:

con·de·scend


1. To descend to the level of one considered inferior; lower oneself. See Synonyms at stoop1.
2. To deal with people in a patronizingly superior manner.

Have you ever heard someone use this term when describing the way you speak to people?

Hanging around the legal eagles, I see you've picked up on on a popular scheme,
taking words out of context.

 

[bobbysamd]

Where's the luv Booby?
Oh uh, Where's the love Booby?
Booby is a paralegal, not a tax lawyer.
Since those schools didn't hire him, he rants about age discrimination and the evils of PFT.
Boob, with your attitude,
I'm willing to bet your future at Comair along with whatever carrier you interviewed at was determined in the first few minutes of the interview.
It's hard to imagine spending 4, 5, 6 days out on the line with you.
The only person(s) I've argued with the most on a regular basis,
is you.
I think you have other login names also, along with some major issues.
Oh, I never take pleasure in someone's bad luck.
I do however get tired of people who blame the system rather than themselves.

By the way, the word is spelled "bodacious."Yupper Boob, or Phil maybe?
just used the spelling of previous poster.

To borrow from your previous example:

con·de·scend


1. To descend to the level of one considered inferior; lower oneself. See Synonyms at stoop1.
2. To deal with people in a patronizingly superior manner.

Have you ever heard someone use this term when describing the way you speak to people?

Hanging around the legal eagles, I see you've picked up on on a popular scheme,
taking words out of context.

See my remarks, above, regarding this poster and those in response to "Skydesk," above, which I incorporate herein by reference.

 

[BODENE]

I must respond to this as I attended Delta Connection Academy and was a flight instructor there for about a year. I can tell you this place is not what it is cracked up to be! The training may be good but is extremely expensive for what it is worth. The way they run the school is hideous with outdated equipment and management that really does not know what is going on half the time. I would be extremely cautious about putting my money there. You may even run the risk of teaching at a satellite campus somewhere! I had a former student now instructor pass the Stands course and was offered a job in Boston....That was the only alternative after he invested over 100K.

I could not imagine paying over 7k for an MEI rating either! I can tell you that although I attended there, I did not need the academy to get a job! There are many ways of getting hired and many opportunties for everyone out there. I have spoken with many good pilots that have gone the Part 61 route and have been successful at the airline and the corporate market.

I hope everything works out for you!

 

[LXApilot]

The REAL DCA

I did my CFI and CFII at Comair Aviation Academy in Jacksonville, Florida while I was in the college program at JU. Let me give you some of my own personal observations and feedback:

PRO
1) Comair Aviation Academy (aka. Delta Connection Academy) is a good place to do your CFI ratings. The amount of technical knowledge they require you to know seems ridiculous, but you come away with a tremendous working knowledge. The structure and environment are good for CFI's who want to go on to instruct at other part 141 schools. When you finish your CFI/CFII you are knowlegeable, sharp, and on the ball - ready for a teaching job.

CON
2) My biggest problem with everyone involved with CAA in general was the fact that it is "the quick route" that yields little to no practical experience and therefore holds no real value in its flight time. I flew boxes and execs for a company I worked with in high school when I got my commercial ticket; the people at CAA frowned on that "outside" experience and were hostile to me because of it. They view outsiders as "not as good" and tend to think of themselves as the end all and be all of flight training. "Oh, you were part 61..." was something I heard a lot about me when I was there. Must have burst their bubble when I finished CFII in two days; an academy record that - at least to my knowledge- still holds. These people have 1000 hours in their logbook, but they have flown the same 1 hour 1000 times. Not 1000 different hours as their logs suggest. Ask them about flying into PDK, PTK, TEB, CHO, MEM, MCO, MIA, ORD, you name it... they've never been there, they don't have a clue, and they don't care which is the scariest part. There have been two times when I was embarrased about my past association with CAA. One was on the ramp at CRG when one of their CFI applicants asked me what a Citation looked like... this kid is going to be TEACHING students and he can't identify the most popular corporate jet in the world. The second was when a friend of mine started explaining the reasons for wanting to go rent a twin outside of Comair and fly into some "non CAA approved airports" to get some experience. One very misled CAA CFI looked at us and said "but thats stupid. Why do that? You dont need to do that to get hired to fly the RJ." I personally just couldnt stand the arrogance and clueless mentality that seemed to be so contagious there. CAA is such a small and fairly insignificant part of the flying world, but they believe that aviation revolves around them. When you add it all up, what does it mean? It means watch out when flying with anyone from CAA; not because they cant fly, but because its like flying with a student who just soloed. They think they are hot $hit; but their radios suck, their flight planning sucks, their aviation decision making sucks. They've never seen icing, they've never seen traffic, they've never seen engines crap out. They've never had to make any aeronautical decisions because all they know how to do is follow the "PIF".

PRO
I met a lot of really good friends while I was involved with their program. I made friends with several instructors and several students. Many of the guys in my hiring pool went on to work for CAA and eventually some of them have gone on to regional airlines. Its hard to find amongst the multitudes of completely inept and misguided army of potential aviators, but there are some there who really do have the "fire" and want to learn as much as they can about aviation and become the best pilots they can be. I've flown with a lot of guys that I really respected both in and outside the cockpit that got their start at CAA. Its a great place to be exposed to a very disciplined learning environment ; if you want to learn things like : at exactly what rpm the heading indicator gyro spins, or maybe, how many rivets are visible on the exterior of the C172. You guys think I am joking, but both of those items were required knowledge that could have BUSTED you on a checkride there if you didnt know it.

CON
No matter how much trivia you can vommit up about the C172 it is still just a 172. People in corporate, the airlines, or cargo dont care about how technical and deep your knowledge level goes concerning the impluse coupling or how much the magneto weighs. People who really fly airplanes for a living know that such knowledge is a waste to learn; sure its great to impress the non flying public, but what real use is it? All of the flying jobs I have ever had came from going out on the road with somebody and using your experience and knowledge to help them solve problems, get the pax where they needed to go, and get the airplane there safely and efficiently. Too many times I heard everyone flying at CAA tell me about how they were so proud to be sporting that new Commerical or Instrument certificate... but they had never really earned it. Part 141 is what is called "train to proficiency". Part 61 is what I call "train to experience". I liked flying part 61 much more because it asked me to face real challenges and let me build a wealth of experience you simply cannot do while at CAA or any part 141 environment. At CAA you paid a truck load of money for a rating.. and you got one. When they had paid enough money CAA passed them. My friends and I called the FSDO and the FAA many times on CAA graduates who were DANGEROUS and should not have held the certificates they did. We're talking about people who have CRASHED several times, tail struck, been violated by the FAA, busted airspace, let go of the flight controls while inflight in IMC conditions, and basicly demonstrated complete incompetence. However, somehow, they had crisp new CPLs from Comair.

PRO
Travel benefits. Need I say more? The guys who are hired as CFIs get employee pass travel benefits on Delta Airlines and its worldwide partners. Myself and several of the guys took trips all over North America and Europe on Delta's dime. This is probably the single best advantage to working at CAA. But you dont have good seniority and your priority code is low.

CON
If you go to CAA you will learn how to dance their way very quickly. Its a good old boy system where some people are quietly accepted for CFI positions while other strong canidates are turned away. Be wary of an alleged "confidential" out processing form. It is NOT confidential IN ANY WAY. They use the information you provide on that form against you in your HR interview with Jennifer - WATCH OUT that you dont tell the truth. best advice? Dont even fill it out. And if that isnt bad enough? They screw their employees royally on a daily basis. Signing the contract for 1000 dual @ $10 per hour also reads in small print that you will buy your MEI to the tune of $7000 ... when you do the math you are virtually working for free for two years if you are hired as a CFI with their company. Plan on spending LONG hours at the airport and not being paid for most of it. Be wary of management and their fickle employee relations. In 2003, they fired 40 instructors; some my good friends; over the summer months because of overstaffing. Completely fired them, no travel benefits, no cash, no interview with the airlines. That is when they found out that their certificates were trash because they had no hours and experience to back them up, they couldnt talk the talk or walk the walk because they had been taught the "comair way" which unfortunately does not jive with virtually anyone else in the business outside of Comair Airlines exclusively. CAA is also Delta's bastard step child. Although wholely owned by Delta, DAL makes absolutely no reference to them, never mentions their affiliation or taunts the business relationship. However, CAA will remind you every single day that you are "trained by Delta". When new potential losers come down to take a look at the academy, ambassadors show them a copy of the RJ FOM and show them the spot on the C172 checklist that says : "pushback - n/a" to make them feel all warm and fuzzy and believe that YES, they too can be a 777 Captain at age 22 and earn $350,000 per year so they can buy that "house on nantucket" you guys speak of. Its a business that has wretched Customer Service, a negative employee - management relationship, and a completely oblivious attitude. My favorite prank they pulled on the CFI's? We couldnt afford to put gas in the car to drive out to the airport so we asked for a little more $. Instead of giving us the money we needed they took everyone out to the bar for one night, let them get piss drunk, and then tauted it in front of us for the next year proclaiming that they had 'given us what we asked for' and spent 'a large sum'.

All in all, just stick out the normal route. Go to college if you want to and get your degree, then go start building flight time and experience outside of the training environment! Go fly freight, corporate, charter, whatever... build yourself up and learn something along the way. The reason the profession is in such shambles now is because of these CAA grads who jump into the cockpit not because they really want to, but because they thought it sounded good and have no other marketable skills after mommy and daddy footed the bill to put them through CAA's exorbitant fees and tuition. Calm down- wait your turn- and more than anything else - EARN IT!

 

[LXApilot]

Thats it, I'm done. If you do happen to go the "academy" keep your head bro. Go there and learn for what it is worth... its not the end all be all. Its a great place to START. Always be open to outside flying, get into some weather, fly a few different airplanes, apply all that goofy rote knowledge, and maybe someday you'll look back on it and value it for what is really is. FLIGHT SCHOOL. Look into yourself and ask yourself what kind of person you are deep down. This is a big decision that requires A LOT of coin. Are you someone who wants to earn their ratings and certificates and feel confident and proud in their skills and abilities, all the while building a story to tell? Or do you want the fast and easy way to the regional airline cockpit? its your choice. people have made it work either way - i'll leave it to you.

Fly Safe-
Colin

 

[bobbysamd]

Oppressive environment

The way they run the school is hideous with outdated equipment and management that really does not know what is going on half the time.

Its a business that has wretched Customer Service, a negative employee - management relationship, and a completely oblivious attitude. My favorite prank they pulled on the CFI's? We couldnt afford to put gas in the car to drive out to the airport so we asked for a little more $. Instead of giving us the money we needed they took everyone out to the bar for one night, let them get piss drunk, and then tauted it in front of us for the next year proclaiming that they had 'given us what we asked for' and spent 'a large sum' . . . .

In other words, an oppressive environment.

I rest my case. Thanks for posting.

 

[SMOE]

Bodean and LXApilot,
Hear, hear. I could have written those posts myself. Nothing more to add about the self-proclaimed "center of the aviation universe"...

 

[NuGuy]

In other words, an oppressive environment.

I rest my case. Thanks for posting.

Heyas Bobby,

Man, I wouldn't even argue with Skydesk or the other clowns...I mean, in 1991 he was probably watching some ABC After School Special or something while his mother whipped him up some mac and cheese and telling him to wipe his nose.

FWIW, I also interviewed at Comair in 1991, but fortunately I lived in FL at the time. I went to interview with a dude by the name of Fry. Not even a hint of a letter, phone call or anything. The place was chaos.

If you made it 24 months, you got the interview, 16 if you were a CFI at CAA. Didn't matter, you still had to pay the bucks for the job at Comair.

For those noobs, Comair was PFT back in the 1990's. The whole thing started when TWExpress (the wholly owned outfit...ex-Ransome, NOT TSA) contracted with FSI to do their new hire training. I still remember the article in Flying Magazine about it...First dude's name to do it was Hoadly, or something like that. Everyone soon jumped on the bandwagon, and Comair was the first in like. 12k, or something like that, got you in the E-120 or the Saab.

What everyone at this stage of the game needs to remember is all of aviation management is basically crisis management. Doesn't matter what you fly or where you fly it. AMR to Joe Bob's Flying Cheques Service....management is always stamping out fires.

Flight school management is the same except that A) the dudes in charge are basically making zero dollars for a PITA job (IE getting called by various ATC facilities, airport managements and/or the FSDOs on a weekly basis for some infractions or stunts); B)These same people are looking to split with a clean record OR trying to smooze into a higher paying job and C) the non-flying types are empire-builders and will make every effort to make their job more important than it really is, usually at your expense.

The primary job of any large 141 magagement type is to support the sales staff. Period. The sales staff has priority over everybody else. Operations, maintenece, ground support, everybody. Believe it or not, but the actual flight training is the red-headed step child of any large flight training outfit.

The primary job any Chief Instructor is to A) Keep the FAA off the backs of the school and B) Keep the disgruntled students (whether rightfully so or not) off the backs of the school and C) Fire or intimidate anyone who interferes with sales, or causes problems.

Administrative F*@# Ups happen all the time because the ground pounders don't do their jobs. Better grin and bear it.

It doesn't matter what your problem is. In such a closed enviroment, every slight, imagined or otherwise will be remembered and recorded. Trivial ground school items will be required, because that is all they know how to show dominion over students. Besides, you need to show all the other 500 hour Roosters how bad-a$$ you are by knowing how many rivets in a 172, but couldn't something do important like how to run a self-serve fuel pump or divert to a grass field.

Also, big school/little school doesn't matter. It all comes down to the individual CFI. If you luck out and hook up with a guy/gal you can stand who has more than a half hearted interest and you can keep your nose out of any trouble, you can do ok.

If I were to recommend anything to anyone it would be:

1) First, don't do it. Go to Law school (personal bankruptcy is a growth field) or Med school. Make some bank, date some hotties, get your own airplane, retire early and enjoy life.

2) If young, get your degree, and do your flying on the side part 61. Even if it's just your private or instrument. Get your feet wet to see if you like it or not. Don't get a degree in aviation unless it has some real world application away from airplanes like an A&P, accounting or management.

3) If you are older and/or have a family, you better be made of serious $$$$, because if you proceed, it will be a long and expensive route. If your spouse doesn't understand now, they never will and it will only get worse as the money flows.

3) If you are going to a big 141 school, don't bank on that interview. Only about 3 in 10 make it that far, so if you are going to go, go with that in mind and learn as much as you can about the outside aviation world. Hope you have some gold, cause it WILL cost you more than quoted.

4) No one gives two steaming grumpies about where your tickets came from. Quoting where you did your ratings only makes you look like an self-important twit.

Nu

 

[bobbysamd]

Comair

I wouldn't even argue with Skydesk or the other clowns...I mean, in 1991 he was probably watching some ABC After School Special or something while his mother whipped him up some mac and cheese and telling him to wipe his nose.

You're right. I shouldn't. But I like to feel there are at least a few people out there who are capable of rational discussion, and to those people I direct my comments.

I also interviewed at Comair in 1991, but fortunately I lived in FL at the time. I went to interview with a dude by the name of Fry. Not even a hint of a letter, phone call or anything. The place was chaos.

Once more, I rest my case. You still probably had to spend the day, at least, driving. No matter if you traveled twenty miles or two-thousand miles, there is no reason for such discourtesy, especially when the outfit holds itself out as the paragon of professional flight training.

Thanks for posting.

 

[NuGuy]

You're right. I shouldn't. But I like to feel there are at least a few people out there who are capable of rational discussion, and to those people I direct my comments. Once more, I rest my case. You still probably had to spend the day, at least, driving. No matter if you traveled twenty miles or two-thousand miles, there is no reason for such discourtesy, especially when the outfit holds itself out as the paragon of professional flight training.

Thanks for posting.

Absolutely...

When I was a real new guy, I would have given anything for a resource like this. Imagine...near real time gouge for addresses, interview info, working conditions and the straight dope from people who've been there and done that...FOR FREE!

Instead you have a clueless bunch of kids who are going to have to go out and re-invent the wheel for themselves and find out the hard way.

Yea, when I visited CAA in 91, I was pretty underwhelmed. They had a big fleet and were busy, but it was just a lot more of what I had already seen at other places...barely organized chaos.

By accident, I instead wound up at a mom & pop operation where I could have some input on what went on, and you were rewarded for solving problems instead of chastised for bringing them to light. No where near the size of CAA, but you could stay busy. They had 30 planes or so, and we turned out safe, knowledgable pilots who understood how the world worked when they were done. The students got the knowledge they needed, without any BS. They almost always got through nearly on time and nearly on budget. The CFI's there prided themselves on all "bringing something extra to the party" in the form of experience, instead of the rote regurgitation that passes for training these days.

Almost to the man/woman, the instructor corp that was there, and many of the students, are all on at majors or their job of choice now. Funny how the world works sometimes.

Sadly, it seems that these medium sized M&P operations are a thing of the past, except for very small operators.

Nu

 

[bobbysamd]

Flightinfo.com and Comair

When I was a real new guy, I would have given anything for a resource like this. Imagine...near real time gouge for addresses, interview info, working conditions and the straight dope from people who've been there and done that...FOR FREE!

I agree emphatically. The only gouge around in 1991 was outdated, obsolete and inauthentic Kit Darby FAPA notes, and rumors and gossip from associates who attended interviews previously.

Instead you have a clueless bunch of kids who are going to have to go out and re-invent the wheel for themselves and find out the hard way.

Yea, when I visited CAA in 91, I was pretty underwhelmed. They had a big fleet and were busy, but it was just a lot more of what I had already seen at other places...barely organized chaos.

Clueness is definitely the operative word, in more ways than one. Combative and belligerent, too, when confronted by information and opinions that opposes their company kool-aid. In other words, they don't want the facts to confuse their opinions.

I still like 141 schools, and do not doubt that Comair provides decent training. And, I'm sure schools that neither you nor I have heard of have similar cultures as Comair. There are also plenty of others that are non-oppressive and non-confrontational, and actually supportive of their endeavors.

There are plenty of training choices and plenty of schools. Flight training is expensive and requires a full commitment. Choose carefully - and listen and receive all input, even if it opposes your opinion.

 

[NuGuy]

I agree emphatically. The only gouge around in 1991 was outdated, obsolete and inauthentic Kit Darby FAPA notes, and rumors and gossip from associates who attended interviews previously.Clueness is definitely the operative word, in more ways than one. Confrontational, too, when accosted by information and opinions that opposes their company kool-aid. In other words, they don't want the facts to confuse their opinions.

I still like 141 schools, and do not doubt that Comair provides decent training. And, I'm sure schools that neither you nor I have heard of have similar cultures as Comair. There are also plenty of others that are non-oppressive and non-confrontational, and actually supportive of their endeavors.

There are plenty of training choices and plenty of schools. Flight training is expensive and requires a full commitment. Choose carefully - and listen and receive all input, even if it opposes your opinion.

Hey Bobby,

I like 141 schools, too, as long as they stick to their purpose...transfering information that is required and appropriate in a formal, organized format. For some people, especially younger guys who didn't have the benefit of college, THIS is the way to go. At the 141 school where I was, we had more than a few "youtes" that really needed the structure of the program.

What I don't like to see is a formal groundschool program turned into a game of "stump the dummy" or some kind of sick weeding out process where important information is lost in the course of memorizing the trivia.

On the other hand, for "mature" students or for folks with better-than-average motivational and orginizational skills, part 61 is probably a better way to go. I've found these people can absorb the book stuff in short order, and are best left to pick up the finer points one-on-one. In these cases, these guys are better off 61 without getting hung up on all the hoop jumping 141 requires.

These are the guys you can teach something to once or twice, and they are good to go onto the next item. I've had the pleasure of a couple of these types of students, and they are absolutely great to work with. They come prepared, have a bunch of questions to ask when they show up and have in THEIR head items they want to work on.

What I hate to see is these kinds of students spending obscene amounts of money on a program that doesn't suit them. A good FBO program, or maybe even ATPs Firehose would be the best, and much, much less expensive.

Shame of it is, is that I have never personally seen the "perfect" training program or facility. Usually, you see that either the school has nice facilities and/or aircraft, but cardiac-inducing prices (FSI), or they are more affordable (I hesitate to use that work in conjuction with most schools) with facilities better suited for a frat house on saturday morning. Most pay zero homage to the culture of aviation and have all the warmth and interest of a dentist's office .

As for the polarization (IE drunk with Kool-aid) that you have seen in the students and/or CFIs, that usually comes from one thing...inbreeding. No, not the kind that you see in Deliverance, but what happens when you recycle countless generations of students into CFIs with little or no effort to bring outside ideas into the mix to keep it fresh. I've seen some REALLY weird stuff come from this...

It's mostly a managament dillema...but sooner or later the FAA gets around to importing some new folks into the FSDO and they get a good case of "what the fcuk??" when they see how the school in question does some things.

ERAU and UND, as well as some other places, go through cycles of these, where the POI or CMO forces them to hire from outside. They do so, begrudgingly, and usually only a token amount. Soon, these new CFIs hoplessly outnumbered and totally neutered as to effecting any real change leave within 6 months when they are told in no uncertain terms that their presence is NOT welcome. The cycle then begins again...

Nu

 

[Doubleo6point9]

Personally I wouldn't go through DCA. During my final year at Metro State College of Denver they lobbied hard with the Dept Chair to turn Metro into one of DCA's remote campuses. They gave us their speach about how we'd be guarantee the interview but they never went into any detail other than "you'll be hired on as an instructor, build 900 hours total time and then you spend the next 100 building multi time as an instructor. At that point you're guaranteed an interview with one of our DCA airlines." Of course they didn't mention any of the negative things i've read on here.

The biggest thing about it was that they never brought any instructors or student for us to talk to and they repeatedly dodged some important questions that people were bringing up-as if they were trying to hide something, which now I know they were. If I remember correctly, alot of people wanted to know what the hire rate(for a CFI position) was for students who went through their program. They kept saying "97% of our hired instructors who interview end up with placement in a regional." BUT, they kept dodging the question by adding a vague description of how the training would go and everything. FINALLY, one of our most outspoken students stood up and said "Why is it that everytime we ask how many students are hired on as instructors after finishing your course you cannot give us a straight answer? And why are there no sucessful students present who have finished the entire course and made it through the program here today to answer any of our questions?" With that they were a bit befuttled and finally admitted that only 60% of their students are hired on as instructors. Then they were to quick to point out that out of those 60%, the ones (note that they didn't mention any numbers about how many instructors made it to the interview or were canned before the interview) that were interviewed had a 97% hire rate. After we brought up the questions about the other instructors who weren't hired they said "well you've had the best training available behind you so you will be hired at other schools and you'll have that training for life regardless of where you go."

Anyways, it was all very suspect and they were trying to guage interest to see if it was worth bringing it here to Denver or not. The Department Chair was all for it and so were alot of us graduating students intially because we were promised that we'd be given an opportunity to interview with them as a CFI. But again, they said "we'll be bringing in our own CFI's and hiring some local ones due to the high altitude". The best #'s they gave us for that was "50/50 initially..But it can change depending on the situation.." But after awhile the interest faded with everyone because of the costs(minimum of 60k they were projecting) and because it defeats the purpose of that school in the first place: affordable quality education and flight training. The Dept Chair was trying too hard to be like ERAU or UND. Plus alot of us felt that any company willing to charge their students 60/hr for instruction and only pay the instructor 10 of it only cares about one thing: money and profits, not the students or the instructors.


Oh and the other big thing. None of the students would be allowed to use the planes for anything other than training purposes. Which sucks in my opinion because that takes out 90% of the fun of flying when you're learning and doesn't give you a whole lot of real world experience(as everyone else was saying). Personally I would have to say some of my most enjoyable moments in flying took place because I was able to take my friends and family up flying on cross country flights with me as I worked my way through my private, instrument, comm, cfi, etc.

 

[standaman]

The strong will survive

I worked for the academy for three years and I can tell you exactly about the placement rate of students to instructors. The students who should be instructors are instructors. The ones who should not are not. You do get a garunteed interview. In my opinion it is worth it's wait in gold. Expensive flight school heck yes. Does management do some strange things. They sure do. I can tell you this it is a quick route to the airlines. If and only if you are willing to live in the system they have.

 

[bobbysamd]

141

I like 141 schools, too, as long as they stick to their purpose...transfering information that is required and appropriate in a formal, organized format. For some people, especially younger guys who didn't have the benefit of college, THIS is the way to go . . . .

. . . . or even for those who have.

At the 141 school where I was, we had more than a few "youtes" that really needed the structure of the program . . . .

(emphasis added)

Agreed, wholeheartedly. That has been my point about why I like 141.

What I don't like to see is a formal groundschool program turned into a game of "stump the dummy" or some kind of sick weeding out process where important information is lost in the course of memorizing the trivia.

Agreed, again. You encounter a certain amount of this in 141, some more than others.

There are always dogmatic instructors/stage check pilots who love to ask, "How many rivets are there in a (school's trainer)?" Wouldn't a more productive question be, "What you would you do if you found missing rivets and/or loose or missing Dzus fasteners during your preflight?" Of course, going to whether the aircraft is airworthy and if the student would fly it.

On the other hand, for "mature" students or for folks with better-than-average motivational and orginizational skills, part 61 is probably a better way to go. I've found these people can absorb the book stuff in short order, and are best left to pick up the finer points one-on-one. In these cases, these guys are better off 61 without getting hung up on all the hoop jumping 141 requires.

Perhaps. But for those who have been out of school for a while, the discipline a school environment affords can still help them learn more, better and faster. I speak from personal experience, having returned to school full-time nearly eleven years ago after being out for twenty-one years.

As for the polarization (IE drunk with Kool-aid) that you have seen in the students and/or CFIs, that usually comes from one thing...inbreeding. No, not the kind that you see in Deliverance, but what happens when you recycle countless generations of students into CFIs with little or no effort to bring outside ideas into the mix to keep it fresh. I've seen some REALLY weird stuff come from this...

True. ERAU brought in outside instructors when I started there in 1988, but after it hired a few who refused the standardization, it went back to hiring only from within. I don't know if that had changed after I left there in 1991. As you put it:

ERAU and UND, as well as some other places, go through cycles of these, where the POI or CMO forces them to hire from outside. They do so, begrudgingly, and usually only a token amount. Soon, these new CFIs hoplessly outnumbered and totally neutered as to effecting any real change leave within 6 months when they are told in no uncertain terms that their presence is NOT welcome. The cycle then begins again...

. . . . and again, and again . . . .

 

[bobbysamd]

Metro

During my final year at Metro State College of Denver [DCA] lobbied hard with the Dept Chair to turn Metro into one of DCA's remote campuses . . . .

That would have been a pity. Metro has an excellent program. I knew one of its adjunct instructors, who was a retired United DC-10 captain and who was my father's college roommate in the '40s. I know of one of its other adjunct instructors, who is well known in Denver aviation circles, who flew traffic watch, and had been involved in Colorado CAP. Finally, I flew with a Metro aviation grad. This young man was an excellent pilot.

 

[thorrr]

Hey Bobby,
Shame of it is, is that I have never personally seen the "perfect" training program or facility. Usually, you see that either the school has nice facilities and/or aircraft, but cardiac-inducing prices (FSI), or they are more affordable (I hesitate to use that work in conjuction with most schools) with facilities better suited for a frat house on saturday morning. Most pay zero homage to the culture of aviation and have all the warmth and interest of a dentist's office .
Nu

. . .errrr.... this statement doesnt belong in a conversation about DCA, simply because the school meets neither one of these qualifications. Is DCA the exception in that it charges cardiac-inducing prices for facilities LEASED from the frat house ;-)

 

[SMOE]

I worked for the academy for three years and I can tell you exactly about the placement rate of students to instructors. The students who should be instructors are instructors. The ones who should not are not. You do get a garunteed interview. In my opinion it is worth it's wait in gold. Expensive flight school heck yes. Does management do some strange things. They sure do. I can tell you this it is a quick route to the airlines. If and only if you are willing to live in the system they have.

WTF are you smokin'? Let me guess, you were one of DCA's glorious "standz" pilots who swaggered around like Chuck frickin' Yeager thinking you had done all seen all...all from the confines of central Florida's airspace. Apparently you played the game like all good robots that DCA likes. Look in the mirror, I think theres still some brown stuff on the end of your nose and some white stuff still dribbling down your chin. Your a tool...