Delta Connection Academy...THOUGHTS????

[CFI'er]

DCA's Own Numbers

It is DCA's own figures from their website and magazine ads. Do the math. They have 16 years of business and have only 754 students that have graduated. That figures out to only, on average, 47 students per year. What I can't seem to find out is what do they mean by "graduate" and "guarantee Interview"?

 

[CFI'er]

The Real Question

Found this interesting response on another aviation website. You should consider the cost of an "Academy" before you make that jump.

"My question to you: Can you afford a student loan payment of $600/month and still live, while only earning $1,833/month gross, First Officer's pay? Take home pay is estimated at only $1,166. Take a look at what it will cost you per month on average.

Loan............$600
Car payment..$300
Car Ins.........$300
Apartment.....$500
Food.............$400
Utilities..........$200

Total............$2300

More than likely the example is conservative and it probably will cost you more to live than what I estimated. I did not include monthly items such as clothing, gas, beer, movies, tolls, diapers, A lot depends on base domicile
Where are you going to get the extra $1,184 take home pay per month for living expenses? Is you wife working full time?

Even the loan companies say that a student loan payment per month should not be more that 10% of monthly gross pay. "

 

[huncowboy]

Re: DCA's Own Numbers

It is DCA's own figures from their website and magazine ads. Do the math. They have 16 years of business and have only 754 students that have graduated. That figures out to only, on average, 47 students per year. What I can't seem to find out is what do they mean by "graduate" and "guarantee Interview"?

yada yada yada... Where does it say 12000 students enrolled in 16 years? I don't see that anywhere.

 

[SMOE]

Re: Re: DCA's Own Numbers

yada yada yada... Where does it say 12000 students enrolled in 16 years? I don't see that anywhere.

Where are you getting 12000 from? Math is not my strong suite but 754 x .06 (6%) = 45.24

How could 6% of a number be larger than the original number?

That 754 would be the number of "graduates" who were hired as instructors and logged 800 dual given at slave wages. Who were good little robots, who never spoke up when they saw something done wrong or saw a student getting screwed, who played the game all for an early interview.

 

[172driver]

No, math isn't your strong point. CFI'er is saying that 754 graduates is 6% of total students since 1987. 754 is 6% of roughly 12,000. 754/.06=12,567. Again, where does it say that 12,000 students enrolled since 1987?

CFI'er: I am indeed living on a FO salary and making my loan payment. Your figures are wildly exaggerated. Here's what I spend and how I make it...

Salary is roughly $1700/mo. plus per diem. Lowest take home around $1700, sometimes more.

Loan......................$400 ($50K loan)
Car payment..........$0
Insurance.............. $110 (full coverage)
Apartment..............$300 (with master bedroom and bath)
Food.......................$400 (your number)
Utilities....................$200 (with digital cable and h/s internet)

Total.......................$1410

Don't forget that second year pay will go up to about $3200/mo, not including per diem. There are indeed some lean times, especially instructing at the academy but it is definitely possible.

Where did you get your figure of 6%?? I suspect it is another exaggeration but probably not wildly off the mark. Maybe closer to 25%. However, what you're not pointing out is the normal attrition rate at any FBO, academy, college, etc. who does flight training. To be fair to DCA, you ought to post accurate numbers from at least one of each. I am positive you would find similar results.

Almost all of the attrition I saw at DCA was students with an attitude like yours. 'I can do it cheaper elsewhere.' "I don't like the schedule.' 'The airplanes are old.' 'The academy is charging too much.' Well, these things are all true but they are selling a superior product...excellent training, proven success of grads at the top regional, the interview. I might point out that those who stick it out and don't exercise the 'greener grass' option are 97% successful at the interview.

I moved out from the west coast to attend DCA. Had not a penny to my name and parents who were unable to help financially. I had to succeed or kiss away the money I borrowed. It was the scariest and the best choice I ever made. I love my job.

Many who left did so because they were too young or immature to handle it, didn't plan well financially, weren't cut out to be pilots. But the most common thing I saw was a simple lack of motivation, work ethic, study habits, leading to spending way more than expected.

BTW, Timebuilder, you'll be happy to know that the students are now in uniform.

 

[de Pez]

CFI'r

It is expensive..I worked two jobs to make ends meet, lived on no sleep, and had one true day off a month. However the majority of instructors there have some other support mechanism (parents, wife), but it can be done...

Also, their marketing department does just what they are paid to do....sell. In fact, even their numbers seem inflated. However, for those "6%" who do make it through, what is the value of getting your flight time and being hired by a regional within 18 months or so? It's enormous...because it gives you a seniority number 2 years before most of your peers who've been slogging it out at an FBO, creating the potential to be a Captain by the time you're contemporary is just getting hired.

Now for the other 94%, it may seem ridiculously expensive, and not worth it, but value is a relative thing. Apparently the market continues to support the opportunity, despite the sobering statistics.

 

[CFI'er]

Here is a direct copy from DCA's website.

Delta Connection Academy has more than 750 students. Our main campus in Sanford Florida, near Orlando. A wholly owned subsidiary of Delta, Delta Connection Academy has produced more FAA certificated pilots in the past four years than any other flight school in the world. With a fleet of more than 110 aircraft, Delta Connection Academy has trained students from 86 different countries and has placed pilots with 26 airlines.

All I'm saying is to be cautious when considering the high priced Academies.

A new ad states: "Delta Connection plans on hiring over 1000 pilots and adding over 100 new jets in the next 12 months alone." Here is another statement in the same ad that needs explaining: "Delta Connection Academy is owned by Delta. As a result, we are the ONLY school authorized to service the entire Delta Connection System. Pilot positions are reserved for Academy graduates". The way the ad reads, it makes readers believe DCA is the only school to supply pilots to these listed airlines: Comair, ASA, ACA, SkyWest, and Chautauqua Airlines. This is totatly false advertising. Other "Academy" schools supply pilots to these airlines. Go to the big name "Academy" website and check for yourself. Either DCA is fabricating the ads or the other Academies are. Who is telling the truth? It is a twisted word ad. Word phrases that tend to twist the truth are: "ONLY school", "We have the seats", "hiring over 1000 pilots in the next 12 months",

No one has answered my two questions. What requirements are necessary to "graduate", and what is a "guaranteed"
interview? I'm not bitter because I did not attend DCA. I went to another big name "Academy", thank you! I'm bitter because I talked with enough former DCA students that got the runaround and felt that DCA-CAA was nothing but a money pit. As a matter of fact, I flew with a former DCA-CAA student who was one of the best pilots I've had the opportunity to fly with. He left the Academy and continued his flight training at another school. He is currently flying as as FO at one of the above mentioned airlines.

 

[de Pez]

Not sure about current requirements, however "graduate" previously meant completing Phase 1 and 2. Phase one being completion of required certifications, particularly the CFI's at the school. (There have been limited exceptions to this rule) Phase 2 is the completion of the instructor's course and being hired to instruct for a thousand hours. (Without getting the ax) I knew one guy who was "let go" the day before his airline interview.

After succesful completion or "graduation" from these phases, you were "guaranteed" an interview with one of several regionals.

 

[huncowboy]

CFIer,

You see this is the problem with these posts that keep popping up about DCA or about other "big" 141 academies. Most of the negative comments I see come from people who have not attended the specific school. A few come from those who have dropped out. Those at least include some valid points, but they are full with frustration at the same time. Any intelligent candidate should be able to read into the lines between the extreme frustration and the extreme euphoric posts.

There are plenty ex or current DCA folks who have already provided detailed info on DCA. I would say 90% of the opinions I have seen from guys who have attended DO include some negatives, but in overall those who made it through are mostly positive about the experience, and about the deal as a whole. I have never said DCA was a perfect place but when I see my ex CFIs getting hired one by one I can’t think of it as a bad decision. And those guys are no flying Gods either, just simple dudes who decided to stick it out and give their best shot.

If you ask me, I am an advocate for part 141 and I >>>think<<< it is better to not go the FBO way, still I never post anything about or against it. Why? Because I know nothing about the FBO way. I am also not experienced in aviation. So I simply STFU. But that is just me.

So with me it is all good that you went the FBO way, I can even see how it made more sense at a time when everyone was hiring. But please limit your info you provide about a school that you have not attended to the facts. Coming up with the 6% is quite a statement which you have not defended yet, and I would be very surprised if you could. Obviously the 6% was a flame bait (and an easy one) to anyone who actually went to DCA. As someone already pointed out you were not even taking into account the attrition. It is huge. It is probably higher than at an FBO. At DCA there is no red carpet treatment and the school is indeed fast paced at least in Sanford. Furthermore not every student wants to become an airline pilot. Many students come here to get a commercial or an IFR ticket or just do a flight review etc... My guess of what is the actual attrition of those who come here to do the full deal is somewhere around 30% where I am, it may be different in Sanford.

This may be discouraging for some but it is important to realize that there are very many quitters mostly for financial reasons. Also there are a few who are simply not made for it. I disagree that everyone can learn flying. Everyone might be able to get a private but learn flying? I have heard about private students who have never seen a compass rose at the age of 20. There are also quite a few who dropped out right the moment when the industry went down.

But I will argue anytime that those who are dedicated, and study hard can make it and their chance is not 30%. But if you are someone who has always been the last in the class but daddy threw in the 50k anyways then you better go PFT right away but chances are even that won’t help you much right now.

0.02

 

[huncowboy]

"guaranteed interview" is just that what it reads to me anyways. The interview is guranteed with one of the Delta connections, mostly Comair and Chautauqua (<- I know I have mispelled this). Meaning you will get an interview. It does not guarantee that you will be hired as a result of that interview.

"graduate the program" means that you are hired as a CFII and complete the dual give 800 and multi given 100 hours. Correct me if I am wrong with the numbers. When you meet the numbers you can apply and get into the interview.

BTW CFIer,

I thought you went the FBO way. So disregard those parts in my above post.

 

[rmanning]

Having some experience first hand with Delta Conn. I would say definitely do not listen to the salesman. The training program itself is pretty good. The Aircraft are pigs for the price. As an A&P trust me that most of the aircraft are not very good. They have finally gotten some new seminoles however. The instructors are like instructors at most large fligt schools-little experience themselves. The only real problem i had with the instructors themselves was that most seemed afraid to refuse anything such as bad aircraft because they were afraid it might hurt theirselves on an interview. Also about the guaranteed flight interview, that is only guarnteed if you go make it get hired as an instructor and then make it through their stands class. Also remember this, the school does know how many instructors approximately it will be losing to airlines with the guaranteed interviews so therefore the school is only going to hire the # of instructors they are going to need. I have several friends that went through the program and are still going and most would not recommend the school. I would suggest going somewhere else. Perhaps look at Embry Riddle in Daytona. They have a just a flight program also and the price is very competitive to comair. The aircraft are far superior. At Riddle you dont get the Instructor ratings but you do get an MD90 rating.

 

[de Pez]

rmanning has some good points. If you can find the same quality of training for less money, then go for it. However if you're trying to build a couple of thousand hours to be eligible to go to a regional airline, then CFI's are much more important than an MD90 type rating. At least you can build time with CFI's, not to mention understanding the regs at a more fundamental level. Anyone can go buy a type rating, it's experience that's difficult to come by. In fact many major airlines don't even recognize a type rating (with few exceptions) until you have several hundred hours in type to go with whatever little letters and numbers that happen to be printed on your certificate.

 

[crjfo2b]

Comair/DCa from the inside

ok, here it is from the insiders truth:

Comair/DCA is a good place to learn the craft if you are in a hurry. It is alot more expensive then any other place out there, and you dont get a degree at the end of it.

Also, having gone there as a student and worked there for a year and half as an instructor...I am in a position to say that they claim a 97% placement rate as f/o's....this is absolutely not true...

Especiallly lately, the last group of 8 went up to Chautauqua (instead of Comair..hmmm???), and were all turned down....

After you go, they dont even talk to you anymore....they promise placment assistance but do nothing to place you with any other airlines...

when i was there, they changed the policies midstream of the game about the time required to complete the program....when i started, you needed only to give them 800 hours of dual given with 100 hours of multi time to get the guaranteed interview.

I came into the program with time preexisting and did not need the multi time and was told so by the chief instructor and director of training.

Low and behold, after one of the instructors went to Comair the airline with 100 hours of multi time without ever getting his MEI, Comair questioned how he could get it. Well, he obtained it without being standz'd in the aircraft flying up to JAX and MIA to give checkrides as he was a check airman.

Since this happened, Comair had thought he had falsified his logbook and checked the times against the aircraft logs...they then changed the rules....everyone had to have their MEI and 50 hours of the 100 hours of multi time had to be dual given..no exceptions..

Welll, i appealed and was told i was out of luck, i had to go with the new rule..i wanted to be grandfathered since i had started prior to the problem and I already had my multi time...no luck...

This is typical for DCA, they are artitrary in what they do....**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** the individuals...

I'm not bitter ...just a bit disappiointed that they do not help out the students a bit more....

 

[de Pez]

I completely believe that CRJFO2B is telling the truth. It seems to be dependent upon need. They need you, until they don't, then it's "tough luck"... However, if you happen to be there in an "upswing", all the instructor's are going to end up at the airline...Try to be the best...student...instructor...Whatever..If this is who you are, then this is who you will be...

 

[Mike man]

From the few people I have talked too Comair was not interviewing DCA guys. But several have gone to Chautauqua recently but the few people I knew at CHQ had nearly 2000 hours. All ATP's seems to have an excellent in at CHQ a few people have gone from ATP's to CHQ with just 1000 total time.

Plus I'm pretty sure there was a WMU CFI a few years back that came from DCA as an instructor who said they make people pay to become a DCA CFI (he was already a CFI and they made him pay to learn the DCA ways).

Whats wrong with Western?