Delta acquisition of NWA almost finalized!

[Cobraair75drvr]

General,

You have been around long enough to know pay comes and goes. Would you guys be saying the same as far as pay with a Luv merger? Doubt it, as their capt. rate over there currently pays more than anything at dal, including the jpwa rates.

That really is not fair because at NWA you have pent up seniority thanks to your redbook, greenbook situation. There are MANY DC9 Captains that are senior but could NEVER hold larger because the redbook guys were NEVER displaced. That was YOUR problem, created by YOU GUYS, and now you want to "set everything right" be releasing them on our widebodies, after you created the problem. Well, that is why using current salary is more fair---when looking at the SLI. It keeps people where they were before the merger, and keeps associated problems where they WERE originally. A DC9 Captain moving to the left seat of a 777 is a windfall, and you have plenty of those thanks to your mess up.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

General,

You have been around long enough to know pay comes and goes. Would you guys be saying the same as far as pay with a Luv merger? Doubt it, as their capt. rate over there currently pays more than anything at dal, including the jpwa rates.

I understand what you are saying. But, there is a problem, that you can probably see too, that there were a lot of greenbooks that were treated unfairly by the redbooks. They couldn't move to their "rightful" seat after the fences came down because there were no displacements for the redbooks, keeping a lot of those now senior greenbooks on narrowbodies. That could change quickly with lots of future acquisitions of our 777s (and your 787s I guess, although I don't know the status of that plane or replacements), and that would be a windfall, placed on us primarily. This SLI is a one time thing, looking at what is fair today. What are the current pilots at both airlines flying and making in salary NOW. Same at USAir and AWA---they were given relative seniority and relative position (the INTL guys at USAir were given the top 500 spots because they had positions and flying AWA didn't have). The Southwest guys would fit in differently because they don't have the INTL flying, although they would be put in the middle because of their salary. Both salary and flying would be taken into account---and that should be looked at here too. No windfalls should occur---again, in salary and position. Those senior greenbooks would get both, and although they were treated unfairly all along, it is not our job now to set it straight. SLI is a one time thing.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[123]

That really is not fair because at NWA you have pent up seniority thanks to your redbook, greenbook situation.

So you are a proponent of having the same situation at the new DAL?

There are MANY DC9 Captains that are senior but could NEVER hold larger because the redbook guys were NEVER displaced.

Not true, there may be a few, but there are not that many left on the -9. Most have moved on to other aircraft.

That was YOUR problem, created by YOU GUYS, and now you want to "set everything right" be releasing them on our widebodies, after you created the problem. Well, that is why using current salary is more fair---when looking at the SLI. It keeps people where they were before the merger, and keeps associated problems where they WERE originally. A DC9 Captain moving to the left seat of a 777 is a windfall, and you have plenty of those thanks to your mess up.


Bye Bye--General Lee

You can't necessarily look at which aircraft the person is sitting in. They may be bidding a junior piece of equipment for QOL, just as I am sure pilots do at DAL. That same person that may be going from the DC9 to the 777 (in your example) would actually most likely be going from the DC9 to the 787, 747 or 330 as 787s come on line (I know, I have heard your arguments about not getting 787's...).

 

[General Lee]

So you are a proponent of having the same situation at the new DAL?
Well, we had some problems with Pan Am guys moving around in seniority prior to the DL acquistion (The "Dirty 30" for example), but that was a problem that stayed with Pan Am---blamed on Pan Am pilots.


Not true, there may be a few, but there are not that many left on the -9. Most have moved on to other aircraft. On narrowbodies. That is the key. They may have moved on to the minibus (A320 or 319), and maybe some to the 757, but not many in the widebody categories---especially "premium" widebody posistions as you guys call it.


You can't necessarily look at which aircraft the person is sitting in. They may be bidding a junior piece of equipment for QOL, just as I am sure pilots do at DAL. That same person that may be going from the DC9 to the 777 (in your example) would actually most likely be going from the DC9 to the 787, 747 or 330 as 787s come on line (I know, I have heard your arguments about not getting 787's...). There is no guarantee that will happen, along with those senior guys in MEM on the DC9 waiting for ATL 777. Nobody knows, but we do know there is a lot of pent up seniority that was not exercised because of your fences recently coming down, and no displacements at the same time to allow the "true" seniority to show. No displacements equals no movement, until a merger. That hopefully will be looked at, because it is a windfall. Base it on current salary or a future salary, and then people don't get windfalls. Just like you say that you will have a large chunk of retirements coming up too. Guess what? We will have the same chunk of retirements about 5 years later. We will all move up due to both of those retirements. Windfalls can occur with large salary jumps, and that along with fixing a problem created by your pilots is not fair. The Pan Am guys (those Dirty 30) screwed their own pilots before getting on our list, and that was not fixed by us---it was an internal problem brought into our list, that was not fixed afterwards.

There you have it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[123]

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but just want to point out that I believe that the SLI agreement process does not allow pay rates to be used in comparing anything.

 

[General Lee]

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but just want to point out that I believe that the SLI agreement process does not allow pa

And I am not trying to fight with you. I am saying something has to be looked at because that problem with the fences and non displacements will fall on the rest of us. Suddenly there will be a large push towards upward movement on widebodies you guys never had, and the rest of us will only see movement to smaller planes for a long time. We know that the 742s may be going away, and we don't know when those 787s will ever get here. The only new planes coming that we know about are 777s and some 737s, and that is it. But, I have heard some new things about the MD90s. Supposedly we are still looking at them, and they would be based in MSP, because they would be able to hit both coasts from there, whereas the current ones based in SLC can only hit PIT and YYZ at most. So, they would move some MD90s to MSP, and move some A320s or A319s to SLC for more East Coast destinations. There you have it, some possible plans for us.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[123]

And I am not trying to fight with you.

I didn't know that we were fighting, I thought we were just having a discussion.

The only new planes coming that we know about are 777s and some 737s, and that is it.

I guess that I missed the announcement which cancelled the 787 orders.

 

[727RedTails]

General Lee,

All the DC9 Captains can hold the 330 fo and most the 744. They choose the DC9 for the same reason the MD80 fo's choose that over the 763.

 

[NuGuy]

General Lee,

All the DC9 Captains can hold the 330 fo and most the 744. They choose the DC9 for the same reason the MD80 fo's choose that over the 763.

Heyas 727,

Don't forget the reserve/block bidding skews the data even more.

Lot's of people won't bid a R position, even if they can hold it. There is an absolute mountain of people who can hold WB positions, but don't because they don't want to sit reserve.

Heck, I can hold a 330 spot if I want reserve.

When someone at DAL says they can hold a particular position, they lump both categories together.

Nu

 

[FDJ2]

Lot's of people won't bid a R position, even if they can hold it. There is an absolute mountain of people who can hold WB positions, but don't because they don't want to sit reserve.

The same can be said at most airlines with wide bodied fleets. Ultimately, what matters is how many jobs are brought to the merger and what the value of those jobs are.

 

[licorice]

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but just want to point out that I believe that the SLI agreement process does not allow pay rates to be used in comparing anything.

That's true, but it is only payrates from the new JPWA that can't be used. The pre-merger payrates are fair game to be used by negotiators to compare what "equities" each party brings to the table.

 

[123]

The pre-merger payrates are fair game to be used by negotiators to compare what "equities" each party brings to the table.

Where do you get this idea? I think you need to re-read the SLI no prejudice agreement.

 

[PuffDriver]

Where do you get this idea? I think you need to re-read the SLI no prejudice agreement.

I think you need to reread it, or ask Occam, Nu, DTW--they don't seem to know anything either.

 

[~~~^~~~]

What I've learned from this thread:
(1) DC9's last forever, never go away, and regardless of the price of fuel are a strategic advantage against airlines that chose to replace these airplanes decades ago. The cost of operation means nothing and they will replace RJ's, MD88's and 757's on most routes.
(2) No one at NWA has to bid the DC9. Flying this airplane out of the frozen north for 5 legs a day is something pilots aspire to fly just for the quality of life.
(3) Half of NWA's seniority list will retire next month and the other half is going out by Christmas. Only those who post on Flight Info are staying and none of them would be more than 20 numbers from the top if it wasn't for Delta.
(4) NWA is bailing Delta out
(5) Delta is growing purely by spending NWA's money
(6) Despite 47 airplanes are getting parked while 72 large RJ's show up to replace them, Delta has weak scope.
(7) Despite any and all evidence to the contrary, NWA pilots' contract paid the same as Delta's.
(8) Delta's uniforms are bad
(9) Delta's hats are worse
(10) We will witness a US Air type disaster
(11) The Delta MEC is responsible for everything
(12) Logic means nothing
(13) Precedent means nothing
(14) Status Quo is some silly talk that also, means nothing
(15) All Delta seats are belong to us
(16) Delta pilots are afraid of DC9's and can't fly them

What did I forget?

 

[Fly4hire]

Ultimately, what matters is how many jobs are brought to the merger and what the value of those jobs are.

Ultimately the ONLY thing that matters is how the arbitrators rule, and it's not based necessarily on what the SME's at either MEC think.

I think we (as in both sides) are very ill advised to be talking with such finality about this precedent or that and setting expectations based on previous cases. There has never been a merger of this size where the 2 parties are so similar.

I do feel confident that with a panel of 3 arbitrators a fair and equitable decision can be reached - this was one of the better things the 2 MEC's came up with.

We are still free to negotiate the SLI on our own if neither side don't like the results and both still want to sit down at the table.

(Looking foward to reading the arbitration hearing transcripts)

 

[~~~^~~~]

We are still free to negotiate the SLI on our own if neither side don't like the results and both still want to sit down at the table.

Oprah will have my baby, Obama will endorse McCain and the Wall Street derivatives brokers will start a self funded pool to pay back the taxpayers before that happens.

 

[NuGuy]

What I've learned from this thread:
(1) DC9's last forever, never go away, and regardless of the price of fuel are a strategic advantage against airlines that chose to replace these airplanes decades ago. The cost of operation means nothing and they will replace RJ's, MD88's and 757's on most routes.
(2) No one at NWA has to bid the DC9. Flying this airplane out of the frozen north for 5 legs a day is something pilots aspire to fly just for the quality of life.
(3) Half of NWA's seniority list will retire next month and the other half is going out by Christmas. Only those who post on Flight Info are staying and none of them would be more than 20 numbers from the top if it wasn't for Delta.
(4) NWA is bailing Delta out
(5) Delta is growing purely by spending NWA's money
(6) Despite 47 airplanes are getting parked while 72 large RJ's show up to replace them, Delta has weak scope.
(7) Despite any and all evidence to the contrary, NWA pilots' contract paid the same as Delta's.
(8) Delta's uniforms are bad
(9) Delta's hats are worse
(10) We will witness a US Air type disaster
(11) The Delta MEC is responsible for everything
(12) Logic means nothing
(13) Precedent means nothing
(14) Status Quo is some silly talk that also, means nothing
(15) All Delta seats are belong to us
(16) Delta pilots are afraid of DC9's and can't fly them

What did I forget?

Nope, I think you pretty much got it all.

I'm glad you made your peace with it. Takes a big man to admit it. Kudos...recognition: it is the first step to admitting you have a problem.

Nu

 

[~~~^~~~]

Cheers... I can be trained ... I think I'm figuring out how to pass my DC9 checkride... and I'd better add Superpilot's :beer: to the post. Now if I can figure out how to perform a walk around in the ice and avoid falling on my butt on the frozen lav juice.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Oprah will have my baby....

AHHHH SKEET SKEET SKEET YEEEAAAH I'M RICH!!!

 

[DTW320]

I think you need to reread it, or ask Occam, Nu, DTW--they don't seem to know anything either.

You mean THIS no prejudice SLI agreement?:

23 June 2008

This will confirm our agreement regarding the use of certain discussions, proposals and/or agreements occurring during negotiations for a joint collective bargaining agreement between Delta Air Lines and ALPA covering the combined Delta and Northwest pilot groups and preparation for such negotiations.
The Delta and Northwest MECs and their respective representatives agree that any discussions, written or oral proposals or agreements, or other communications of any kind (including any documents, exhibits and data) between or among Delta, ALPA, the Delta MEC and the NWA MEC and their representatives, employees or counsel regarding pay rates on any aircraft type shall not be used nor in any way referred to either directly or indirectly in any seniority list integration negotiation, mediation or arbitration proceeding between the pilot groups for the purpose of attempting to demonstrate that one or more aircraft type(s) should be considered or not considered the substantial equivalent of any other aircraft type(s).
Please indicate your concurrence by signing below.
Sincerely,
____________________ ___________________
Captain Donald L. Moak Captain Dave Stevens
Chairman, Delta MEC Chairman, Northwest MEC