DAL/NWA SLI Hearings in a nutshell

[ThisistheDream]

DAL and NWA both are taking delivery delays next year due to the strike at boeing​

By Marilyn Adams, USA TODAY
One month after more than 26,000 Boeing (BA) commercial aircraft workers walked off their jobs, the strike at the world's top-selling plane maker is starting to hurt its airline customers and suppliers.
Members of Boeing's International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers walked out of factories in Washington, Oregon and Kansas on Sept. 6 after contract talks broke down over job security and pay. It's the third strike by Boeing's machinists in 13 years.
No negotiations are scheduled. Boeing says it offered the union the richest contract in the industry, including pay raises for the next three years and a richer pension plan. Union leaders disagree.

Five factories have been idle for a month, and the impact is beginning to be felt. During the third quarter, Boeing delivered only 84 planes, down from 109 in the year-ago quarter. The strike is affecting assembly of Boeing's new 787 Dreamliner — already a year behind schedule — along with 737s, 777s, 767s, and 747s.
Delta Air Lines (DAL), the USA's No. 3 carrier, was expecting this fall to receive four long-range Boeing 777s and 737-700s, for a total of 10 new jets this year. "All I can tell you is we are expecting some delay in our deliveries," Delta spokeswoman Betsy Talton said

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Yes, and all of them are in or near final production. If this strike is ended sooner rather than later, most of these will have minimal delay.

 

[Superpilot92]

There are other things you have to consider, like current pay, number of widebodies, future orders, and career expectations with regard to the DC9s and 742s. Sorry, DOH has nothing to do with this, and the USAir East guys learned that quick. Our list was relative seniority along with protection for our junior guys if the 742s and some DC9s were parked (sounds very plausible)---hence the bottom 400 all NWA. It would NOT be fair for any of our people to be furloughed thanks to NWA planes going away. And even if we have nobody furloughed, the list should still reflect that possibility. The Nicelau award had the top 500 all USAir East because of a certain type of flying that was "different" to AWA's, and the bottom 400 here reflect the possibility of a furlough.(very very good chance the cargo ops plus the 742s are bye bye soon)


Bye Bye--General Lee

DAL pilots can have protection from "Assumed" DC9 parkings over the next 4 years without Stapling the bottom 10% of NWA pilots below them for the rest of their careers. Fence it up as a protection but a staple of those pilots because DAL pilots want near term protection for "what ifs" doesnt warrant long term seniority loss for the NWA pilots.

 

[Superpilot92]

Yes, and all of them are in or near final production. If this strike is ended sooner rather than later, most of these will have minimal delay.

Notice that the "What ifs" are always assumed to have positive outcomes if it involves the Delta side, yet the "what ifs" for the NWA side are always assumed worst case scenario as far as the Delta side is concerned? Wonder why

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Not true. Fact is that the 742's and DC-9's are the oldest in the fleet. The MD-88 is next along with the 320.
It is wise to assume that the two airframes that are the oldest are going to leave the soonest. In addition this, the DAL fleet plan has the 88 staying to 2018. Phase out at 2015 if fuel goes North of 150 again.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

What exactly do you mean? Did not look at all areas of dalpas proposed sli closely except for mine. Doh I am roughly 6800, straigh percentage 7300(500 with dohs junior to me now senior) and dalpas stovepipe about 7800(almost 1100 junior, now senior). Out of my hands.

And if you look closely at the fleets and then take this SLI and marry up each position with the next person in line you will be able to be in the same relative position in your equipment that you could hold today, assuming everyone bid the most senior position.

 

[AirportBum]

You obviously know this, but many other things such as vacation, days/holidays off, etc are affected by seniority. To tell Cobra that his losing 1100 numbers is fine because he will keep his seat doesn't show the whole picture.

You guys keep mentioning it, but has there been a phasing out date for the -200's? I know there's been some talk of losing some cargo contracts, but I haven't heard anything concrete about the fleet being parked.

 

[AirportBum]

This situation is so dynamic, and much of NWA's management moves have been affected by this merger. They're now planning based on what the new DAL wants (whether anyone will admit it or not, we're still two separate entities right???) This has been going on since long before the merger was officially announced.

One could argue (and I will be surprised if our lawyers don't) that our management has been intentionally NOT replacing the -9 because they know/knew the merger was coming.

No one knows what the standalone NWA plan would have been without the merger because they've known, since long before we have, that this merger was coming. You can argue all day long that we're shrinking down to nothing, and I can just as easily say that if it weren't for Delta, we would already have a replacement ordered.

Tell me, was it NWA that didn't want the C-Series jet, or was it new DAL management that was actually making the call? I know what the press release said, but that was after the merger had been announced right?

Just something to think about. Northwest would have been just fine (probably without furloughing 500 pilots) without this merger, and to staple based on "what might be" is not right. I have faith that the arbitrators will see this.

 

[PuffDriver]

Notice that the "What ifs" are always assumed to have positive outcomes if it involves the Delta side, yet the "what ifs" for the NWA side are always assumed worst case scenario as far as the Delta side is concerned? Wonder why

NWA's whole rebuttal is what if. Delta's case is what IS. There is a huge difference. Your 15 minutes are over newbie.

 

[PuffDriver]

You obviously know this, but many other things such as vacation, days/holidays off, etc are affected by seniority. To tell Cobra that his losing 1100 numbers is fine because he will keep his seat doesn't show the whole picture.

You guys keep mentioning it, but has there been a phasing out date for the -200's? I know there's been some talk of losing some cargo contracts, but I haven't heard anything concrete about the fleet being parked.

It was stated by a Delta manager today, publicly, that the -200s are going away. There goes some of that super duper wowsy wubsy flying...and with them, those super duper premium jobs.

 

[Superpilot92]

NWA's whole rebuttal is what if. Delta's case is what IS. There is a huge difference. Your 15 minutes are over newbie.

Yeah and DALPA's sudden assumption of parking DC9s and 747-200's immediately isnt a what if? There is NO actual concrete publication from the company that those planes are getting parked right now. DAL has mentioned the -9's to stick around till 2012 and some random talks about DELTAS plans for the 747-200s being retired at some point but NWA hasnt said they are parking all the 200's. Should we take the brunt because YOUR (soon our) company MAY reduce or retire those planes POST merger?

Oh and thanks for the heads up on the 15 minute thingy oh super senior crusty Delta pilot Loosen those double breasted buttons up puffy, lets at least attempt to keep this a somewhat intelligent debate and not an unproductive flame fest. Thanks for your help.

 

[Superpilot92]

It was stated by a Delta manager today, publicly, that the -200s are going away. There goes some of that super duper wowsy wubsy flying...and with them, those super duper premium jobs.

Again decisions YOUR current management makes post merger should equally be OUR problem. Pre-merger those planes had no definite date of retirement until the 787 was to arrive as far as NWA was concerned.

 

[Fly4hire]

NWA's whole rebuttal is what if. Delta's case is what IS. There is a huge difference. Your 15 minutes are over newbie.

Fortunately you don't get to decide what "fact" is or is not. If you think you can "read" the arbitrators you are in for a surprise.

All your back slapping and self congratulating is a little premature - If you think you are actually going to get that proposed list or anything remotely close I think you need to be drug tested.

Here's a hint - your proposed list, or an equivalently lopsided one to our favor would result in the operational implosion - think NWA Roberts/USAir acrimony several orders of magnitude. The arbitrators know this, as does RA, Moak and Prater.

Despite the rhetoric this is an opener - risky move by DALPA as we are not in negotiations.

I'll enjoy seeing you eat crow

 

[licorice]

DAL pilots can have protection from "Assumed" DC9 parkings over the next 4 years without Stapling the bottom 10% of NWA pilots below them for the rest of their careers. Fence it up as a protection but a staple of those pilots because DAL pilots want near term protection for "what ifs" doesnt warrant long term seniority loss for the NWA pilots.

That may be a compromise position, super. The only problem would be when the -9's/-200's actually leave, and furloughs were required, the bottom of the list would furlough out of seniority order. (DL pilots being protected by a fence, per your suggestion) This would draw out a lot of gnashing of teeth on the NW side, even, I suspect, if it had been agreed to in writing previously...maybe not. In any event, there is no furloughing for 24 mos. after DCC as a strict result of the merger...New can of worms...would NW have got rid of them as a stand alone? -yes, eventually, obviously. -Or will their demise only come as a result of the merger? The bottom line is IF, and much more likely WHEN, the NW -9's go away for whatever reason under the sun, are not replaced, and whether it would have happened as a stand alone or as a result of DL getting rid of an uneconomical liability that was brought over to the new company by NW, the Delta pilots should be protected from those job losses... I think you've agreed with this premiss, it is just a matter of executing the appropriate protections. FWIW, I agree with you that fences for as long as the -9's are around, would be more appropriate than stapling the bottom 400.---(I say that at great risk from my brother Delta pilots on this forum-maybe I should get a medal or a certificate or something for my courageous stand)

 

[123]

We did keep some rules though, and they are now extended to you, whether you like them or not (like manning rules to boost your Captain numbers on flights over 12 hours).


Bye Bye--General Lee

Uhm....actually they are not extended to us. At least not for the purpose of SLI. Take a read of the arbritation, last day, and see what your captain on the stand has to say about the staffing as it pertains to the NWA aircraft. So, thanks for extending the benefit but not actually accounting for it in the SLI.

 

[AirportBum]

FWIW, I agree with you that fences for as long as the -9's are around, would be more appropriate than stapling the bottom 400.---(I say that at great risk from my brother Delta pilots on this forum-maybe I should get a medal or a certificate or something for my courageous stand)

One of the more reasonable DAL positions I've seen over this. Sounds like a much more middle ground solution which is probably close to where we'll end up.

Stapling our bottom 10% just because "DC-9's are old and will probably go away soon" sounds as ridiculous to us as DOH because "our pilots are old and will go away soon" does to you guys.

It's getting cliche but seniority is forever. If your concerns about near-term furloughs can be alleviated without a long-term punishment (staple) incurred by our side, it should be explored. Fences around the -9's and out of seniority furloughs (IF they ever were to happen) due to the crusty old -9's may be good compromise.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

That is simplistic, but it is because it is the most junior equipment. I do not see and 88 drivers bidding to it.

 

[ugasucks]

Superpilot, Have you done the math, what % would you be on the proposed list and what percent are you on the NWA list now. So if 400 NW guys aren't on the bottom, do you think 400 Delta guys should be?

 

[AirportBum]

Superpilot, Have you done the math, what % would you be on the proposed list and what percent are you on the NWA list now. So if 400 NW guys aren't on the bottom, do you think 400 Delta guys should be?

I don't think anyone should be stapled from either side. The integration regardless of the format, must go all the way through. The guys that are getting spanked the hardest are 2000 and 2001 NWA guys with several hundred 2007-08 DAL hires in front of them.

I'm not arguing for DOH, but if the relative integration really was relative, they wouldn't be losing out so badly. By doing this proposed integration + staple, most NWA guys are losing 1-2%, while DAL guys potentially gain 1-2%. When applied to 12,500+ pilots that equals several hundred numbers. Or another way of looking at it: working holidays, winter vacations, etc. . . . . 300-400 numbers is a very big deal. Just because it may only be 2.5% doesn't make it right.

 

[ugasucks]

So what is the % for you, I keep hearing about guys losing 2 to 3 % but what about you or superpilot, have you done the math. What happens if yall get rid of the 200's which our company has said they are not in the plan, then what. Not saying staple but what is fair if we are suppose to grow and you are suppose to shrink?

 

[AirportBum]

I will lose around 1% or 150ish numbers vs. straight percentage integration. How much of a % bump has the bottom DAL guy gotten to suddenly have ~500 pilots stapled behind him? Again, it's the 2000 and 2001 guys that are the big losers with this method.

How do you do percentage-wise? Do you gain much? I keep hearing everyone within 1-2%, but it seems to depend where you are on the list.

By the way I love your screenname. Too many Dawgs fans around here.

 

[vprMatrix]

Wasn't my point.

My point is a newhire DAL pilot only has "expectations" of flying a 767 because no one senior to him bid that position (or maybe by default as you point out because you needed to staff quickly; either way it has created artificial expectations due to this unique scenario.)

I disagree with your assessment. It is unlikely that every pilot is going to bid a larger piece of equipment just because they can hold it.

With that being said, Delta has hired enough pilots to staff every M88 position system wide plus most of the ATL 737 positions. Due to the number of pilots who will not bid off the M88 or 737 due to their "equipment seinority" there is no reason why newhires shouldn't be holding 767.

 

[AirportBum]

Just did the math:

To answer ugasucks' question. The first NWA staple pilot will lose 4.61%, and it will gradually get better the farther down the list. That's a pretty hard spank.

 

[123]

deleted...not worth it

 

[nonstop]

Just did the math:

To answer ugasucks' question. The first NWA staple pilot will lose 4.61%, and it will gradually get better the farther down the list. That's a pretty hard spank.

You think that's a hard spank, that's not even the worst of it. Do the math 10 years from now. Everyone on here is debating about what the SLI looks like tomorrow. As lopsided as the DAL proposal is tomorrow say with your figure of -4.61% for the NWA guy, his relitave seniority gets significantly worse as time goes on, while the DAL guys only gets better.

 

[General Lee]

I don't think anyone should be stapled from either side. The integration regardless of the format, must go all the way through. The guys that are getting spanked the hardest are 2000 and 2001 NWA guys with several hundred 2007-08 DAL hires in front of them.

I'm not arguing for DOH, but if the relative integration really was relative, they wouldn't be losing out so badly. By doing this proposed integration + staple, most NWA guys are losing 1-2%, while DAL guys potentially gain 1-2%. When applied to 12,500+ pilots that equals several hundred numbers. Or another way of looking at it: working holidays, winter vacations, etc. . . . . 300-400 numbers is a very big deal. Just because it may only be 2.5% doesn't make it right.

Your cargo ops is bleeding money, and we know the world economy is slowing, so very good chance the 742s will go away soon. That equals 350 pilots. IF you don't get the 787s you were planning, then where would those go? We know some of the DC9s are going away. That will also add to the number of people who might get affected. As far as I know, we aren't parking any extra airplanes at DL, and even with the Boeing strike, we should get new 777s and more 737-700s fairly quick after the strike ends. So, we are expanding, and we know you are contracting. Is it fair to any DL pilots to lose their jobs (even temporarily) when they interviewed and were hired at an airline in expansion mode? Serious questions here. You can't just blend the lists and possibly furlough people who never signed up for that. Sorry.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

You think that's a hard spank, that's not even the worst of it. Do the math 10 years from now. Everyone on here is debating about what the SLI looks like tomorrow. As lopsided as the DAL proposal is tomorrow say with your figure of -4.61% for the NWA guy, his relitave seniority gets significantly worse as time goes on, while the DAL guys only gets better.

We are retiring just as many pilots as you are, but 5 years after. You thought they would all be gone soon (at age 60 initially), but with this economy tanking and the stockmarket and 401Ks lowering in value, those guys may not retire until closer to 65. That throws every plan off. You can't say that you "would have benefited" since nobody will for awhile. Eventually, every one of those senior guys will retire, on both sides, and we will ALL move up. Look at USAir East and how that arbitration was handled. It was very close to relative seniority, with the top 500 all USAir East due to a different type of flying (INTL). We have almost the same thing, except the bottom 400 would be all NWA, since those pilots are flying or could fly planes that may go away sooner than later. (or are in the "number" of jobs for those planes---ie ANC=350 pilots, the DC9s=50 or more)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[800Dog]

We are retiring just as many pilots as you are, but 5 years after. You thought they would all be gone soon (at age 60 initially), but with this economy tanking and the stockmarket and 401Ks lowering in value, those guys may not retire until closer to 65. That throws every plan off. You can't say that you "would have benefited" since nobody will for awhile. Eventually, every one of those senior guys will retire, on both sides, and we will ALL move up. Look at USAir East and how that arbitration was handled. It was very close to relative seniority, with the top 500 all USAir East due to a different type of flying (INTL). We have almost the same thing, except the bottom 400 would be all NWA, since those pilots are flying or could fly planes that may go away sooner than later. (or are in the "number" of jobs for those planes---ie ANC=350 pilots, the DC9s=50 or more)


Bye Bye--General Lee

General beat me to it. Delta guys gain from NWA retirements and 5 years later, NWA guys benefit from DAL retirements.

 

[AirportBum]

Your cargo ops is bleeding money, and we know the world economy is slowing, so very good chance the 742s will go away soon. That equals 350 pilots. IF you don't get the 787s you were planning, then where would those go? We know some of the DC9s are going away. That will also add to the number of people who might get affected. As far as I know, we aren't parking any extra airplanes at DL, and even with the Boeing strike, we should get new 777s and more 737-700s fairly quick after the strike ends. So, we are expanding, and we know you are contracting. Is it fair to any DL pilots to lose their jobs (even temporarily) when they interviewed and were hired at an airline in expansion mode? Serious questions here. You can't just blend the lists and possibly furlough people who never signed up for that. Sorry.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Exactly why this will end up decided by the arbitrators.

I love how you keep telling yourself the same old story about the -9's and -200's. That is not the only factor at play here, and does not justify us paying for the rest of our careers with a staple.

Will you at least concede the point that NWA management is currently, and has been for a long time, making decisions knowing that they will be the New Delta soon?

It is very likely that the "New" management team has decided not to make fleet adjustments at NWA until after the merger to make the logistics easier. This keeps financing, training, maintenance, integration, etc much simpler if fleet adjustments are made post-merger. NWA is not shrinking into oblivion, and would have been just fine on our own. Is it fair that we should take a staple because our (read New Delta) new management doesn't want to replace anything until post-merger??

If you're making assumptions that the -200's (which to my knowledge have not been announced) and -9's were going to go away unreplaced, then you need to give some thought as to why that might be.

Nice opener though, I like where this is going . . . .

 

[123]

Your cargo ops is bleeding money, and we know the world economy is slowing, so very good chance the 742s will go away soon....So, we are expanding, and we know you are contracting.

Oh, the slowing world economy only impacts NWA?

... and even with the Boeing strike, we should get new 777s and more 737-700s fairly quick after the strike ends.

How are those talks going over at Boeing?

Is it fair to any DL pilots to lose their jobs (even temporarily) when they interviewed and were hired at an airline in expansion mode? Serious questions here. You can't just blend the lists and possibly furlough people who never signed up for that.

I thought there was a no furlough clause, what happened to that?