DAL/NWA SLI Hearings in a nutshell

[ThisistheDream]

DAL and NWA both are taking delivery delays next year due to the strike at boeing​

By Marilyn Adams, USA TODAY
One month after more than 26,000 Boeing (BA) commercial aircraft workers walked off their jobs, the strike at the world's top-selling plane maker is starting to hurt its airline customers and suppliers.
Members of Boeing's International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers walked out of factories in Washington, Oregon and Kansas on Sept. 6 after contract talks broke down over job security and pay. It's the third strike by Boeing's machinists in 13 years.
No negotiations are scheduled. Boeing says it offered the union the richest contract in the industry, including pay raises for the next three years and a richer pension plan. Union leaders disagree.

Five factories have been idle for a month, and the impact is beginning to be felt. During the third quarter, Boeing delivered only 84 planes, down from 109 in the year-ago quarter. The strike is affecting assembly of Boeing's new 787 Dreamliner — already a year behind schedule — along with 737s, 777s, 767s, and 747s.
Delta Air Lines (DAL), the USA's No. 3 carrier, was expecting this fall to receive four long-range Boeing 777s and 737-700s, for a total of 10 new jets this year. "All I can tell you is we are expecting some delay in our deliveries," Delta spokeswoman Betsy Talton said

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Yes, and all of them are in or near final production. If this strike is ended sooner rather than later, most of these will have minimal delay.

 

[Superpilot92]

There are other things you have to consider, like current pay, number of widebodies, future orders, and career expectations with regard to the DC9s and 742s. Sorry, DOH has nothing to do with this, and the USAir East guys learned that quick. Our list was relative seniority along with protection for our junior guys if the 742s and some DC9s were parked (sounds very plausible)---hence the bottom 400 all NWA. It would NOT be fair for any of our people to be furloughed thanks to NWA planes going away. And even if we have nobody furloughed, the list should still reflect that possibility. The Nicelau award had the top 500 all USAir East because of a certain type of flying that was "different" to AWA's, and the bottom 400 here reflect the possibility of a furlough.(very very good chance the cargo ops plus the 742s are bye bye soon)


Bye Bye--General Lee

DAL pilots can have protection from "Assumed" DC9 parkings over the next 4 years without Stapling the bottom 10% of NWA pilots below them for the rest of their careers. Fence it up as a protection but a staple of those pilots because DAL pilots want near term protection for "what ifs" doesnt warrant long term seniority loss for the NWA pilots.

 

[Superpilot92]

Yes, and all of them are in or near final production. If this strike is ended sooner rather than later, most of these will have minimal delay.

Notice that the "What ifs" are always assumed to have positive outcomes if it involves the Delta side, yet the "what ifs" for the NWA side are always assumed worst case scenario as far as the Delta side is concerned? Wonder why

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Not true. Fact is that the 742's and DC-9's are the oldest in the fleet. The MD-88 is next along with the 320.
It is wise to assume that the two airframes that are the oldest are going to leave the soonest. In addition this, the DAL fleet plan has the 88 staying to 2018. Phase out at 2015 if fuel goes North of 150 again.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

What exactly do you mean? Did not look at all areas of dalpas proposed sli closely except for mine. Doh I am roughly 6800, straigh percentage 7300(500 with dohs junior to me now senior) and dalpas stovepipe about 7800(almost 1100 junior, now senior). Out of my hands.

And if you look closely at the fleets and then take this SLI and marry up each position with the next person in line you will be able to be in the same relative position in your equipment that you could hold today, assuming everyone bid the most senior position.

 

[AirportBum]

You obviously know this, but many other things such as vacation, days/holidays off, etc are affected by seniority. To tell Cobra that his losing 1100 numbers is fine because he will keep his seat doesn't show the whole picture.

You guys keep mentioning it, but has there been a phasing out date for the -200's? I know there's been some talk of losing some cargo contracts, but I haven't heard anything concrete about the fleet being parked.

 

[AirportBum]

This situation is so dynamic, and much of NWA's management moves have been affected by this merger. They're now planning based on what the new DAL wants (whether anyone will admit it or not, we're still two separate entities right???) This has been going on since long before the merger was officially announced.

One could argue (and I will be surprised if our lawyers don't) that our management has been intentionally NOT replacing the -9 because they know/knew the merger was coming.

No one knows what the standalone NWA plan would have been without the merger because they've known, since long before we have, that this merger was coming. You can argue all day long that we're shrinking down to nothing, and I can just as easily say that if it weren't for Delta, we would already have a replacement ordered.

Tell me, was it NWA that didn't want the C-Series jet, or was it new DAL management that was actually making the call? I know what the press release said, but that was after the merger had been announced right?

Just something to think about. Northwest would have been just fine (probably without furloughing 500 pilots) without this merger, and to staple based on "what might be" is not right. I have faith that the arbitrators will see this.

 

[PuffDriver]

Notice that the "What ifs" are always assumed to have positive outcomes if it involves the Delta side, yet the "what ifs" for the NWA side are always assumed worst case scenario as far as the Delta side is concerned? Wonder why

NWA's whole rebuttal is what if. Delta's case is what IS. There is a huge difference. Your 15 minutes are over newbie.

 

[PuffDriver]

You obviously know this, but many other things such as vacation, days/holidays off, etc are affected by seniority. To tell Cobra that his losing 1100 numbers is fine because he will keep his seat doesn't show the whole picture.

You guys keep mentioning it, but has there been a phasing out date for the -200's? I know there's been some talk of losing some cargo contracts, but I haven't heard anything concrete about the fleet being parked.

It was stated by a Delta manager today, publicly, that the -200s are going away. There goes some of that super duper wowsy wubsy flying...and with them, those super duper premium jobs.

 

[Superpilot92]

NWA's whole rebuttal is what if. Delta's case is what IS. There is a huge difference. Your 15 minutes are over newbie.

Yeah and DALPA's sudden assumption of parking DC9s and 747-200's immediately isnt a what if? There is NO actual concrete publication from the company that those planes are getting parked right now. DAL has mentioned the -9's to stick around till 2012 and some random talks about DELTAS plans for the 747-200s being retired at some point but NWA hasnt said they are parking all the 200's. Should we take the brunt because YOUR (soon our) company MAY reduce or retire those planes POST merger?

Oh and thanks for the heads up on the 15 minute thingy oh super senior crusty Delta pilot Loosen those double breasted buttons up puffy, lets at least attempt to keep this a somewhat intelligent debate and not an unproductive flame fest. Thanks for your help.

 

[Superpilot92]

It was stated by a Delta manager today, publicly, that the -200s are going away. There goes some of that super duper wowsy wubsy flying...and with them, those super duper premium jobs.

Again decisions YOUR current management makes post merger should equally be OUR problem. Pre-merger those planes had no definite date of retirement until the 787 was to arrive as far as NWA was concerned.

 

[Fly4hire]

NWA's whole rebuttal is what if. Delta's case is what IS. There is a huge difference. Your 15 minutes are over newbie.

Fortunately you don't get to decide what "fact" is or is not. If you think you can "read" the arbitrators you are in for a surprise.

All your back slapping and self congratulating is a little premature - If you think you are actually going to get that proposed list or anything remotely close I think you need to be drug tested.

Here's a hint - your proposed list, or an equivalently lopsided one to our favor would result in the operational implosion - think NWA Roberts/USAir acrimony several orders of magnitude. The arbitrators know this, as does RA, Moak and Prater.

Despite the rhetoric this is an opener - risky move by DALPA as we are not in negotiations.

I'll enjoy seeing you eat crow

 

[licorice]

DAL pilots can have protection from "Assumed" DC9 parkings over the next 4 years without Stapling the bottom 10% of NWA pilots below them for the rest of their careers. Fence it up as a protection but a staple of those pilots because DAL pilots want near term protection for "what ifs" doesnt warrant long term seniority loss for the NWA pilots.

That may be a compromise position, super. The only problem would be when the -9's/-200's actually leave, and furloughs were required, the bottom of the list would furlough out of seniority order. (DL pilots being protected by a fence, per your suggestion) This would draw out a lot of gnashing of teeth on the NW side, even, I suspect, if it had been agreed to in writing previously...maybe not. In any event, there is no furloughing for 24 mos. after DCC as a strict result of the merger...New can of worms...would NW have got rid of them as a stand alone? -yes, eventually, obviously. -Or will their demise only come as a result of the merger? The bottom line is IF, and much more likely WHEN, the NW -9's go away for whatever reason under the sun, are not replaced, and whether it would have happened as a stand alone or as a result of DL getting rid of an uneconomical liability that was brought over to the new company by NW, the Delta pilots should be protected from those job losses... I think you've agreed with this premiss, it is just a matter of executing the appropriate protections. FWIW, I agree with you that fences for as long as the -9's are around, would be more appropriate than stapling the bottom 400.---(I say that at great risk from my brother Delta pilots on this forum-maybe I should get a medal or a certificate or something for my courageous stand)

 

[123]

We did keep some rules though, and they are now extended to you, whether you like them or not (like manning rules to boost your Captain numbers on flights over 12 hours).


Bye Bye--General Lee

Uhm....actually they are not extended to us. At least not for the purpose of SLI. Take a read of the arbritation, last day, and see what your captain on the stand has to say about the staffing as it pertains to the NWA aircraft. So, thanks for extending the benefit but not actually accounting for it in the SLI.