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DAL/NWA SLI Hearings in a nutshell

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Just a thread to compare notes on what we are reading from the hearings. This is just my interpretation of the hearings and could be incorrect. Does anyone know of a source for the actual exhibit documents?
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Pilot staffing:

Beginning on a baseline of July 2008, Delta’s pilot staffing needs will increase as follows:
by 2010 + 407
by 2011 + 506
by 2012 + 518

Northwest’s staffing will decrease:
by 2010 (+106 International – 800 domestic) = - 695
by 2011 – 647 (or ~ 48 more pilots than required in 2010)

If DC9’s remain at 61 jets and 747-200’s stay
by 2010 – 398
by 2011 - 93

Then the following day, October 4th, corrections were made generally changing NWA’s numbers plus 90 pilots, reflecting the fact that the NWA baseline DC9 fleet was already smaller than the economist expert had believed to be the case.

* anyone know the status of NWA's staffing shortfall under DAL's minimum staffing models? I had always thought this was a red herring, but am surprised no mention has been made of this so called 400 pilot shortfall in the SLI discussions.....

DAL SLI Methodology: (relative seniority by category)

Delta: 6,555 revenue pilots in service (not counting long term leaves, disability, etc…)
NWA: 4,271 “” “”

747-400 top 3.6%
777-200 top 3% and so on ….

Relative seniority, grouped by:
International Captain (777, 767-400, 767ER & 747, A330 and some 757’s)
Domestic Large Gauge Captain (ie 767, 757)
Domestic Medium Gauge Captain (737, A320, MD88/90)
Domestic Small Gauge Captain (DC9) and International First Officer
Domestic Large Gauge First Officer
Domestic Medium Gauge First Officer
Domestic Small Gauge First Officer

Three year fence. NWA pilots can bid across fence into DAL open pilot slots when there are insufficient Delta pilots bidding the slots. (I'm guessing the 787 is a NWA category, or a new category)

Rationale: “We saw information presented about
[FONT=&quot]10 [/FONT]the markets that the aircraft had been used
[FONT=&quot]11 [/FONT]in, the way that the DC-9 is used and the
[FONT=&quot]12 [/FONT]tremendous similarity between it and the
[FONT=&quot]13 [/FONT]76-seater. They are basically interchangeable
[FONT=&quot]14 [/FONT]in Northwest usage right now and that is the
[FONT=&quot]15 [/FONT]fair and equitable place for them to be.”

…. the 12th year captain pay rate
[FONT=&quot]7 [/FONT]on the DC-9 is about $5 less and it's real
[FONT=&quot]8 [/FONT]close to the 76-400 12th year pay rate. But
[FONT=&quot]9 [/FONT]when we analyzed the list, the July 1st list
[FONT=&quot]10 [/FONT]that was provided to us by the Northwest
[FONT=&quot]11 [/FONT]merger committee representatives, we found
[FONT=&quot]12 [/FONT]that despite the pay rate on the Northwest
[FONT=&quot]13 [/FONT]side of a DC-9 captain being slightly higher
[FONT=&quot]14 [/FONT]than a first officer on the 737-400, the
[FONT=&quot]15 [/FONT]seniority, the average seniority of the pilots
[FONT=&quot]16 [/FONT]that were serving in positions as a DC-9
[FONT=&quot]17 [/FONT]captain was junior to not only the 747-400
[FONT=&quot]18 [/FONT]first officers and not only the 747-200 first
[FONT=&quot]19 [/FONT]officers, but also junior to the A-330-first
[FONT=&quot]20 [/FONT]officers.
[FONT=&quot]21 [/FONT]So there was a very clear, if you
[FONT=&quot]22 [/FONT]want to say, bidding choice that the more
[FONT=&quot]23 [/FONT]senior pilots chose to remain as first
[FONT=&quot]24 [/FONT]officers on international wide-body
[FONT=&quot]25 [/FONT]operations,


NWA SLI Methodology:

Date of Hire
 
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Fubijaakr

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Enough
DoH won't fly. Learn from history, boys.
 

ACL65PILOT

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I like what DALPA proposed. It is a top to bottom ratio.
 

~~~^~~~

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Will NWA present witnesses?

Anyone know of a schedule for each side's presentations?
 

FDJ2

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Will NWA present witnesses?

Anyone know of a schedule for each side's presentations?

NALPA will have equal time to present their position and witnesses. The next arbitration hearing will be October 20-24.
 

Flying the Line

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So DC-9 captains to be junior to all int'l f/o's? That's a screw job.
 

FDJ2

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So DC-9 captains to be junior to all int'l f/o's? That's a screw job.

DC-9 Captain positions would be merged with wide bodied first officer positions, not below them. Based on pay and historic bidding paterns, similarly, 747-200 second officer positions would be merged with 767/757 first officers.
 

BigMotorToter

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What happens to the furloughed Delta pilots who bypassed recall and still have several years to go untill their recall rights expire? Do they get integrated or stapled?
 

ACL65PILOT

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They are merged just like your pilots on bypass recall. If you are on the list you are part of the plan. Not just active.
I thought that the list was very fair.
 

hockeypilot44

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Nice of the Delta guys to staple 403 Northwest pilots below the last Delta pilot hired almost a month after the merger was officially announced. It was extremely nice of the Delta pilots to place pilots hired at Northwest in early 2000 behind every single Delta pilot also. Northwest was hiring until the merger was announced. This list is extremely fair.
 

AirportBum

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DC-9 Captain positions would be merged with wide bodied first officer positions, not below them. Based on pay and historic bidding paterns, similarly, 747-200 second officer positions would be merged with 767/757 first officers.

The HUGE flaw I see with this approach is it gives no consideration to guys bidding QOL.

There are newhires at DAL in widebody positions while more senior guys are flying narrowbodies for QOL. Will your method attempt to put them ahead, just because they are flying a 767 by default? I asked a stupid question here because it points to a big concern.

It will be hard to draw the line when merging in NWA guys to say who deserves to be more senior based on what they're currently flying, or even could hold, because that's all relative to the ENTIRE group's QOL preferences. It could be argued that DAL pilots value QOL more than NWA pilots (ie not wanting to sit reserve in NYC) and this is the main reason widebodies have gone so junior at DAL. A widebody is much more senior at NWA than DAL. Are you saying a newhire 767 FO should be senior to (or merged in with) an 18 year DC-9 CA at NWA?

Don't think DOH is fair, but I see some problems with DAL's opener too. (HINT: that's what they're supposed to be doing to end up near a middle ground)
 

ACL65PILOT

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Ratio based upon equipment all the way down. (Once the list was rationalized that is)

I still think that everyone will be within 1 or 2 percentage points of current seniority. I have done a few spot checks and it holds true.
 

ACL65PILOT

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The lists are rationalized prior to this. IE Bid the most senior position you can hold, with no regard for base. That way it takes care of what you are worried about. Same with your list.
 

nwaredtail

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They are merged just like your pilots on bypass recall. If you are on the list you are part of the plan. Not just active.
I thought that the list was very fair.

Sure you did, because you will get to move up 2000 numbers in the next 5-10 years that you would not have had the merger not happened. I, on the other hand, lose 3 years of seniority and only move up 1/2 of what I would have.

I am sure the 2001 hires that are below the DAL pilot hired 5 months ago appreciate where they are at also.

Don't think for a second this is what will be awarded. This is DAL's dream shot.
 

Superpilot92

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Dunno?
DC-9 Captain positions would be merged with wide bodied first officer positions, not below them. Based on pay and historic bidding paterns, similarly, 747-200 second officer positions would be merged with 767/757 first officers.


Wont work because the Junior position at NWA is the SO position. Your logic puts junior nwa pilots above more senior nwa pilots that are on the DC9. Both MEC's wish lists are BS and neither will end up the "winner" It will fall in the middle somewhere.
 
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ThisistheDream

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This is what bargaining is like you ask for more than what you will take so when you come down its still somewhat okay. I am sure when the NWA dream idea is put out it will seem way unfair. Then they will meet half way. I think alot of pilots bid equipment for QOL and what ever you can hold to be based at home!!!!I wont be surprised to see alot of pilots bidding to smaller equipment once all has settled and there are aircraft being moved to new bases..Ex NWA 330 going to ATL or DAL 777 going to DTW.. If your a NWA 330 FO living in DTW and based there and the the A330 moves to ATL or most of them so you would have to commute, alot would bid a smaller plane to stay based in DTW, like 320, md88, 737 FO. Just like some senior DAL FO bidding smaller planes for QOL of life allowing more junior pilots to get a 767 slot when they would normally be a md 88 FO. Trying to base seniority on what you fly today when people bid for QOL is not reflecting true seniority. What really matters about seniority is if furlough happens then it doesnt matter what your flying if your number is called then you get the furlough.
 
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~~~^~~~

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As others have noted, we have yet to see NWA's presentation. It would be smart to keep the emotions in check and look at the objective data.

Delta's position is relative seniority based on equipment and flying category. This is similar to most arbitration rulings and provides for the least disruption of current bidding patterns.

If anyone wanted my opinion, it is that Delta again headed for the middle of the road, which might not help their case with either side. The NWA pilots here obviously don't appreciate the larger and growing equipment categories. At the same time the Delta pilots who think this through will realize that the percent or two increase in relative seniority is not enough compensation for the smaller and shrinking NWA fleet that results in at least 470 more pilots than available jobs in the short term.

It is my opinion that the Delta opener, and the logic used to arrive at this position, is EXACTLY what I would expect an arbitration panelist to award. This was probably done with the realization at the end of the day the DAL MEC will represent the NWA pilots and frankly needs their votes to stay in office.

Both sides are doing an excellent job thus far. I'm open minded and look forward to learning the perspectives of the NWA witnesses.
 
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