DAL/NWA SLI Hearings in a nutshell

[nonstop]

I thought that the list was very fair.

I'm afraid you're in for a big disappointment.

 

[Superpilot92]

Just a thread to compare notes on what we are reading from the hearings. This is just my interpretation of the hearings and could be incorrect. Does anyone know of a source for the actual exhibit documents?
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Pilot staffing:

Beginning on a baseline of July 2008, Delta’s pilot staffing needs will increase as follows:
by 2010 + 407
by 2011 + 506
by 2012 + 518

Northwest’s staffing will decrease:
by 2010 (+106 International – 800 domestic) = - 695
by 2011 – 647 (or ~ 48 more pilots than required in 2010)

If DC9’s remain at 61 jets and 747-200’s stay
by 2010 – 398
by 2011 - 93

Then the following day, October 4th, corrections were made generally changing NWA’s numbers plus 90 pilots, reflecting the fact that the NWA baseline DC9 fleet was already smaller than the economist expert had believed to be the case.

* anyone know the status of NWA's staffing shortfall under DAL's minimum staffing models? I had always thought this was a red herring, but am surprised no mention has been made of this so called 400 pilot shortfall in the SLI discussions.....

DAL SLI Methodology: (relative seniority by category)

Delta: 6,555 revenue pilots in service (not counting long term leaves, disability, etc…)
NWA: 4,271 “” “”

747-400 top 3.6%
777-200 top 3% and so on ….

Relative seniority, grouped by:
International Captain (777, 767-400, 767ER & 747, A330 and some 757’s)
Domestic Large Gauge Captain (ie 767, 757)
Domestic Medium Gauge Captain (737, A320, MD88/90)
Domestic Small Gauge Captain (DC9) and International First Officer
Domestic Large Gauge First Officer
Domestic Medium Gauge First Officer
Domestic Small Gauge First Officer

Three year fence. NWA pilots can bid across fence into DAL open pilot slots when there are insufficient Delta pilots bidding the slots. (I'm guessing the 787 is a NWA category, or a new category)

Rationale: “We saw information presented about
[FONT=&quot]10 [/FONT]the markets that the aircraft had been used
[FONT=&quot]11 [/FONT]in, the way that the DC-9 is used and the
[FONT=&quot]12 [/FONT]tremendous similarity between it and the
[FONT=&quot]13 [/FONT]76-seater. They are basically interchangeable
[FONT=&quot]14 [/FONT]in Northwest usage right now and that is the
[FONT=&quot]15 [/FONT]fair and equitable place for them to be.”

…. the 12th year captain pay rate
[FONT=&quot]7 [/FONT]on the DC-9 is about $5 less and it's real
[FONT=&quot]8 [/FONT]close to the 76-400 12th year pay rate. But
[FONT=&quot]9 [/FONT]when we analyzed the list, the July 1st list
[FONT=&quot]10 [/FONT]that was provided to us by the Northwest
[FONT=&quot]11 [/FONT]merger committee representatives, we found
[FONT=&quot]12 [/FONT]that despite the pay rate on the Northwest
[FONT=&quot]13 [/FONT]side of a DC-9 captain being slightly higher
[FONT=&quot]14 [/FONT]than a first officer on the 737-400, the
[FONT=&quot]15 [/FONT]seniority, the average seniority of the pilots
[FONT=&quot]16 [/FONT]that were serving in positions as a DC-9
[FONT=&quot]17 [/FONT]captain was junior to not only the 747-400
[FONT=&quot]18 [/FONT]first officers and not only the 747-200 first
[FONT=&quot]19 [/FONT]officers, but also junior to the A-330-first
[FONT=&quot]20 [/FONT]officers.
[FONT=&quot]21 [/FONT]So there was a very clear, if you
[FONT=&quot]22 [/FONT]want to say, bidding choice that the more
[FONT=&quot]23 [/FONT]senior pilots chose to remain as first
[FONT=&quot]24 [/FONT]officers on international wide-body
[FONT=&quot]25 [/FONT]operations,

NWA SLI Methodology:

Date of Hire

Now compare the retirement numbers at NWA to the Numbers at DAL in the next 5,10, 15 years. Also the numbers dont consider that NWA was actively looking for the Mainline Replacement aircraft for the DC9. NWA hasnt pulled the trigger on which DC9 replacement aircraft it was going to go for but its no secret they were pursuing the C-Series.

Had there not been a merger NWA wouldn't and couldn't have just parked all the DC9s without replacing it with something at Mainline.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Sure you did, because you will get to move up 2000 numbers in the next 5-10 years that you would not have had the merger not happened. I, on the other hand, lose 3 years of seniority and only move up 1/2 of what I would have.

Sounds like a compelling argument for a big old long fence.

Give me a 25 year fence and you can have whatever seniority number you want. What would you think of that?

I think the most important aspect of this will be the conditions and restrictions that effect our bidding.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I can live with disappointment.
But that FIN states this looks like what an arbitrator would award. They make think differently of a few of the assumptions, but overall it is very close to what I would expect from this panel.

 

[xjhawk]

A solution to this entire thing? Let's be real here, it is NOT going to happen. Who will be happy? Maybe some Delta guys who scored a seniority number which would offer them a better position. A NWA pilot who now gets to be based at home at a new base. But for the most part, I think its a mudd sandwich for most. The real issue is here? How to make this go down without long term headaches like past integrations (red book/blue book etc). Seniority is everything, I have neither Delta or NWA seniority number and nothing at stake here unless some regionals are gobbled up and stuck at the bottom, but thats unlikely. But what I am saying is there does not seem to be a real fair way to get this done. So lets be hopeful they can minimize the damage at those meetings.

 

[AirportBum]

Sounds like a compelling argument for a big old long fence.

We've all seen what that does for pilot group unity. I think the best idea I've heard so far is the 3 year fence, to stabilize everything, then get the pain over with. No need to drag this out over 25 years.

 

[nonstop]

If anyone wanted my opinion, it is that Delta again headed for the middle of the road

You guys are a riot! Seriously, I love you guys. Keep up the posts.

Remember when you fly with NWA pilots in the future, be sure to tell them about your disappointment that 10% of their list wasn't stapled to yours.

 

[~~~^~~~]

NWA hasnt pulled the trigger on which DC9 replacement aircraft it was going to go for but its no secret they were pursuing the C-Series.

Had there not been a merger NWA wouldn't and couldn't have just parked all the DC9s without replacing it with something at Mainline.

The Canadians canceled the C Series when NWA made it clear they were not purchasers of that paper airplane.

The DC9 replacement is the so called 70 to 100 seat E Series and CRJ's.

Your side sold your flying down the river and my side came along and agreed with the outsourcing. IMHO our energies are much more effectively directed to trying to get the E jets on the property than sitting around wishing for a DC9 replacement that isn't coming.

Did your Pediatrician give you a sucker right before administering your shot? Well the "DC9 replacement" is your lolly pop. Not only was the thing never ordered, those who sold your representatives that story aren't even in the position to effect the decision that is made.

 

[Superpilot92]

The Canadians canceled the C Series when NWA made it clear they were not purchasers of that paper airplane.

The DC9 replacement is the so called 70 to 100 seat E Series and CRJ's.

Your side sold your flying down the river and my side came along and agreed with the outsourcing. IMHO our energies are much more effectively directed to trying to get the E jets on the property than sitting around wishing for a DC9 replacement that isn't coming.

Don't get the political eyewash (like RJ's going away due to fuel prices) confused with the facts (the RJ is morphing into a mainline domestic narrowbody jet and if management had their way, we would be a small division of a travel brand management company).

IMHO the C-series isnt going to happen because NWA backed out of it because of the upcoming merger. You may see geared engines on the Airbus's in the future though.

The FACTS are that NWA couldnt just replace all the DC9s with "RJ's" and NOW DAL cant either based on the current environment and scope limitations. You seem to overlook that the company does have its hands tied in a couple different ways in regards to replacing the DC9's with "RJ's".

It is ALL of our Jobs to ensure that the protections we have now and the future protections we can get are treated as a priority.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Remember when you fly with NWA pilots in the future, be sure to tell them about your disappointment that 10% of their list wasn't stapled to yours.

Well 10%, or 11%, would correlate to the DC9's.

Instead you have 2% for a much larger fleet of widebodies, longevity bumps that result in 36% pay increases for many near the bottom, an opportunity to fly for a growing (instead of shrinking) airline, very significant pay raises, a better working environment, and much better job security.

I'm surprised none of the NWA pilots are appreciative of the place they find themselves in. After all, they sure voted for that JPWA.

I plan on keeping to happy talk on the airplane and expect others to do the same. Otherwise they might have to call a reserve up for the return leg.

Flightinfo is the place for debate, not the flight deck.