DAL/NWA SLI Hearings in a nutshell

[~~~^~~~]

We need an employee number thread to avoid the complete crazies.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Funny. Not a bad idea.

 

[AirportBum]

There is no reordering of the lists. A position on the new seniority list is not determined by what a pilot chooses to fly, but rather what his seniority is capable of holding if everyone bid what their seniority can hold.

I'll buy that. Sounds much better when explained that way.

Next question: If the 88's and -9's are the same "category" for integration purposes, shouldn't the most junior DAL 88-holding pilot be down at the bottom with the -9 guys? Still looks like a staple for the bottom 10%. I don't see anything relative about it.

Still optimistic for a middle ground . . . .

 

[AirportBum]

Disregard my above question. I re-read the original post and see that the -9 guys are conveniently the only "small guage" (doesn't do much for the ego ) aircraft.

That certainly justifies a STAPLE of ~ 500 pilots

 

[Truckdriver]

Next question: If the 88's and -9's are the same "category" for integration purposes, shouldn't the most junior DAL 88-holding pilot be down at the bottom with the -9 guys? Still looks like a staple for the bottom 10%. I don't see anything relative about it.

Why should the -9 guys be integrated with the 88 guys. When they park the 9's and furlough 450 guys in the next two years there would be 100 NWA guys furloughed and 350 DAL guys. Pre merger career expectations are a big part of this deal and no pre merger Delta guy should be furloughed as a result of a shrinking NWA DC-9 fleet. That is the whole reason for two days of testimony on the -9 and how it is being replaced by Compass and Mesaba flying. Pre-merger Delta guys shouldn't take the hit for that anymore than we should get the benefit for the NWA retirements.

 

[FDJ2]

quote=Schwanker
The replacement aircraft for the DC-9 was going to be 77-110 seaters, all paying significantly less than the DC-9 and "super" less than the MD-88. It would still be the most junior equipment on the property and therefore should be ranked as such. It's nice you have more knowledge of NWA fleet plans than NWA executives. Maybe you should give Steenland a call and fill him in.

Schwanker, maybe you should review your own MEC's "Across the Table" publication, March 2006 I believe, where it states that the replacement aircraft for the DC-9 will be 77-110 seaters, all of which will pay less than the DC-9.

 

[FDJ2]

It that's the case, it makes you wonder why DALPA took such an extreme preposterous position.

Schwanker

It's consistant with the most recent interpretation of ALPA merger policy, hardly an "extreme".

 

[FDJ2]

So, why organize it based on aircraft category at all? Why not just use the seniority list as a whole?

Not all aircraft categories have the same value. Does the DC-9 position have the same value as the "super premium" 747?

 

[FDJ2]

Next question: If the 88's and -9's are the same "category" for integration purposes, shouldn't the most junior DAL 88-holding pilot be down at the bottom with the -9 guys? Still looks like a staple for the bottom 10%. I don't see anything relative about it.

Still optimistic for a middle ground . . . .

The DC-9 F/O position is the least paying position, on the smallest and oldest airframe, with the shortest range in the combined fleet. Additionally, the DC-9's replacement, according to NALPA, is an even smaller aircraft, that will pay even less.

 

[Superpilot92]

We will accomplish nothing, but Relative by equipment is not extreme. It is a moderate position. We could have gone off in left field and asked for a staple. It is apparent that DALPA is trying to be realistic in its goals.

Stapling the bottom 400 NWA pilots, putting 99 NWA hires behind 2007 DAL hires and 85 NWA hires behind 88 DAL hires is not a "realistic" goal :nuts: . Its ridiculous and i am sure the arbitratiors will see right though the BS that both sides will try and present.

 

[Superpilot92]

Why should the -9 guys be integrated with the 88 guys. When they park the 9's and furlough 450 guys in the next two years there would be 100 NWA guys furloughed and 350 DAL guys. DAL plan is for DC9s to be around till 2012 Pre merger career expectations are a big part of this deal and no pre merger Delta guy should be furloughed as a result of a shrinking NWA DC-9 fleet. Then would you agree that i should be 45% on the list in the next 10-12 years. Afterall that was my pre-merger expectation . That is the whole reason for two days of testimony on the -9 and how it is being replaced by Compass and Mesaba flying. Thats against OUR scope in the new contract and our previous scope language. Pre-merger Delta guys shouldn't take the hit for that anymore than we should get the benefit for the NWA retirements.

Waiting for the middle ground....

 

[FDJ2]

Stapling the bottom 400 NWA pilots, putting 99 NWA hires behind 2007 DAL hires and 85 NWA hires behind 88 DAL hires is not a "realistic" goal :nuts: . Its ridiculous and i am sure the arbitratiors will see right though the BS that both sides will try and present.

The arbitrators will see what the value of each position brought to the merger is and award accordingly. The fact is that a DC-9 F/O position will be the least paying job, on the oldest airframe, with the shortest range in the combined fleet and the DAL '88 hire brings an " extra special super premium wide bodied" captain position to the merger and the NWA '85 hire only brings a "super premium" captain position.

Preserving DOH seniority is not a goal of ALPA merger policy, but preserving status is, so I please explain the relevance of an 88 hire vs a 85 hire outside of the "status" their seniority number at their airline brings to the merger.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Superpilot:

Really, why should Delta pilots be effected at all by the fate of the DC9?

What is your expectation and how high a price should I be expected to pay to protect you from your own aircraft?

In my view it is only logical that as many DC9 pilots as there are, that an equal number of those pilots are on the bottom of the list.

 

[ExAF]

I thought that the list was very fair.

And that's exactly why it is in arbitration. I'm sure the NWA starting proposal will look just as onerous to you as the DAL proposal looks to me. It's all a matter of perspective.

 

[123]

I would guess you might not have reviewed your NWALPA proposal, since it looked like a term paper done the night before it was due.

What was it that caused it to look so bad? The formatting? Length? Poor spelling? Weak grammar?

As far as what you deserve, you should get what your future fleet plan would look like in two years, and yours is losing planes.

If that is what you believe, then I why should all of the current DC-9 pilots be placed at the end of the list? I haven't read anywhere that we are loosing all of the DC-9's in the next 2 years, s

Our retirements will match yours in 5 years, and you getting credit for yours will equal what we should get for ours. So, that would be a wash there.

Would PAM spit out numbers that back up this theory?

Your older pilots will leave with a frozen pension, and that is significant, since you got our better rules (and pay---even though you lost some things like minimum hours and time and a half after 80 hours), and we don't get a pension, ever.

I don't get a pension either, nope zero. Oh, by the way, this merger was not intended to fix the fact that your senior DAL brothers and sisters left early during bk and thus bankrupted your pension plan. We shouldn't have to pay for that, just like you shouldn't have to fix the red/green issue.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

We will agree to disagree. I side with FDJ2. As he states pre-merger expectations need to be kept and this proposal does that.
I can hold a line on the ER in ATL, JFK and I think LAX. Can any 07 or 08 hire at NWA do that. Can an 01 hire do that? I am not sure. (I am not talking about SO positions)

 

[Superpilot92]

Superpilot:

Really, why should Delta pilots be effected at all by the fate of the DC9?

What is your expectation and how high a price should I be expected to pay to protect you from your own aircraft?

In my view it is only logical that as many DC9 pilots as there are, that an equal number of those pilots are on the bottom of the list.

As far as we know the DC9s arent going anywhere for another 4 years in which time a replacement will be decided upon. You want protection from that and we want protection for our Career expectations. My personal expectation as well as most of our list were scheduled to move rapidly up the list in the coming years while gaining massive amounts of seniority below us. Your sides list protects ONLY the DAL side on "expectations", which is expected. When ours comes out you will also say WTF, thats just how this goes. Your sides list proposal isnt "fair" unless you are a DAL pilot. Reverse this and pretend for a second you were on the other side and it is easy to see the lopsidedness. Stapling the bottom 10% of the NWA list because of your assumptions of what could happen wont hold water. It also doesnt protect career expectations for the majority of the NWA pilots. (Yes we have expectations even though you want to pretend we would have just shrunk to nothing while never ordering another aircraft. )

I know why your side is defending this "proposal" i mean why not, its a prime example of a seniority grab for your pilots.

 

[Superpilot92]

We will agree to disagree. I side with FDJ2. As he states pre-merger expectations need to be kept and this proposal does that.
I can hold a line on the ER in ATL, JFK and I think LAX. Can any 07 or 08 hire at NWA do that. Can an 01 hire do that? I am not sure. (I am not talking about SO positions)

Pre-merger expectations may show on that list for DAL pilots but it absolutely does not for NWA pilots. Your "right now" isnt a clear representation of what our expectations are. Stapling 400 NWA pilots behind the last DAL pilot doesnt protect the career expectations of 10% of the NWA list. Does that seem fair? Did that last DAL pilot have better "Career or Pre-merger expectations" than those 400 pilots? The whole thing is a seniority grab at best.

 

[AirportBum]

I can hold a line on the ER in ATL, JFK and I think LAX. Can any 07 or 08 hire at NWA do that. Can an 01 hire do that? I am not sure. (I am not talking about SO positions)

I agree with you most of the time and like your level-headed points, but here you're back to the old argument again. You guys have been explaining that this is not how the integration is being determined.

Once again, for those not paying attention: new DAL pilots are flying the 767 because more senior guys don't want it. NWA pilots have different values as a group. I was told a few posts ago that it doesn't matter what you "are" holding, DAL's position is what you "could" hold if everyone bid the most senior position available to them. True or not???

 

[General Lee]

What was it that caused it to look so bad? The formatting? Length? Poor spelling? Weak grammar?
Probably all of the above. Shoddy.

If that is what you believe, then I why should all of the current DC-9 pilots be placed at the end of the list? I haven't read anywhere that we are loosing all of the DC-9's in the next 2 years, s

It is the lowest paid plane, and will be exiting the fleet first. Yes, before the MD88s. Nobody can say otherwise. Also, before the DL merger plan the NWA plan had more of your DC9s leaving. That gave carreer expectations, and the 742 fleet aint looking good either.

Would PAM spit out numbers that back up this theory?

We all know how many pilots will leave, it is in the computer. When they leave, is another question, which actually hurt your cause. We all knew people would have to leave by age 60, so that was easy to see. Now, you can't claim that, since they COULD stay now until 65, and with this bad economy, more may. Nobody can say "when" you were going to benefit now, since nobody knows for sure when they will leave. You can guess, I guess.


I don't get a pension either, nope zero. Oh, by the way, this merger was not intended to fix the fact that your senior DAL brothers and sisters left early during bk and thus bankrupted your pension plan. We shouldn't have to pay for that, just like you shouldn't have to fix the red/green issue.

Great, some of you join the rest of us. Not all of you, though, especially the senior. And yes, a lot of people left early, along with a lot of our large airplanes at the same time.(Md11s, 762s, and plenty of 737s) Not many benefited from that at all, except not to get furloughed. We did keep some rules though, and they are now extended to you, whether you like them or not (like manning rules to boost your Captain numbers on flights over 12 hours).


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

I agree with you most of the time and like your level-headed points, but here you're back to the old argument again. You guys have been explaining that this is not how the integration is being determined.

Once again, for those not paying attention: new DAL pilots are flying the 767 because more senior guys don't want it. NWA pilots have different values as a group. I was told a few posts ago that it doesn't matter what you "are" holding, DAL's position is what you "could" hold if everyone bid the most senior position available to them. True or not???

If that was the case the last Delta pilot wouldbt be in front of 400 NWA pilots. uke:

 

[General Lee]

I agree with you most of the time and like your level-headed points, but here you're back to the old argument again. You guys have been explaining that this is not how the integration is being determined.

Once again, for those not paying attention: new DAL pilots are flying the 767 because more senior guys don't want it. NWA pilots have different values as a group. I was told a few posts ago that it doesn't matter what you "are" holding, DAL's position is what you "could" hold if everyone bid the most senior position available to them. True or not???

They are flying it mainly because we got 17 757-200ER from AA (all ex TWA birds) quickly, and expanded rapidly. There are plenty of newhires now that are line holders in NYC, and that discounts the theory that all of them are on reserve and hating it. It is probably some of the best flying in the system, but you might have to fly it in NYC, and that, like DTW, may not be liked by some. If you want to blame bad bases, well, you guys have Snowtown, Notown, and Motown.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[AirportBum]

Wasn't my point.

My point is a newhire DAL pilot only has "expectations" of flying a 767 because no one senior to him bid that position (or maybe by default as you point out because you needed to staff quickly; either way it has created artificial expectations due to this unique scenario.)

In either case, you guys have been telling me that your proposal uses the "stovepipe" method, so we're just pi$$ing into the wind here.

For what it's worth, I agree with your integration method with the exception of the ~500 staple. The method was designed to put furlough fodder below all DAL pilots. I get it that this is an opener, but the true middle will lie somewhere closer to "stovepiping" all the way down.

DOH won't fly with you guys, and a staple won't with us. Fortunately for everyone, the arbitrators will have to decide where the middle is.

(Standing by for the same old rhetoric about the -9's and -200's ALL going away, and how we would be lucky to be Compass pilots by Christmas )

 

[General Lee]

Wasn't my point.

My point is a newhire DAL pilot only has "expectations" of flying a 767 because no one senior to him bid that position (or maybe by default as you point out because you needed to staff quickly; either way it has created artificial expectations due to this unique scenario.)

In either case, you guys have been telling me that your proposal uses the "stovepipe" method, so we're just pi$$ing into the wind here.

For what it's worth, I agree with your integration method with the exception of the ~500 staple. The method was designed to put furlough fodder below all DAL pilots. I get it that this is an opener, but the true middle will lie somewhere closer to "stovepiping" all the way down.

DOH won't fly with you guys, but a staple won't with us.

(Standing by for the same old rhetoric about the -9's and -200's ALL going away, and how we would be lucky to Compass pilots by Christmas )

I can understand that, but it is what it is. If there are any future airplane parkings (and we KNOW that the 742s and some of the DC9s are going away---we do), our guys shouldn't have to take part in that. Those planes were going away regardless. Now, we may get enough planes to cover for those pilots (new 777s etc) that will save them, but if we did not, those pilots had career expectations of being temporarily furloughed, and that has to be addressed. None of our pilots should lose a job due to one of your planes going bye bye. Sad, but true. If those planes were leaving in 5 years, it may not be like that. But, from what I am hearing, some of your planes may be gone fairly soon. Incontrast, we MAY BE getting some MD90s (I keep hearing 25 based in MSP sooner than later), and they would be flown on our side until the certificates are merged, along with new 777s and 737-700s (all arriving sooner than your 787s (you may not get any), as soon as the Boeing strike is resolved). Future expansion is currently one sided, but will benefit us all after the SLI.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Yes and those airplanes do not have anything replacing them coming to mainline do they?

If the 717's do come I am sure that the issue of furlough will be negated and DC-9 pilots will fly them.

 

[ThisistheDream]

I see some ratio like 7 to 5 for DAL with little more or less in some parts to make a middle ground intergration. Along with that Fences that protect current DAL and NWA pilots in the aircraft they are currently holding so as long that pilot doesnt not bid out of that 767 or A330 they can have it for 20 years or how long they want. The merger with Usair and AWA is a mess since Usair has a very very old pilot group and AWA had a very young group. Plus Usair had over 1000 pilots on furlough with 12 plus years of seniority where 12 yr AWA pilots where captains. Going by DOH would have been more of a staple in that scenario. NWA DAL overall have a better way to merge in a middle ground with a ratio tied to DOH than Usair AWA ever could. Also in the USA today a few days ago it said that with boeing on strike the 787 delivery is being delayed more along with DAL deliveries of 4 777 and some 757/737 for a total of 10 DAL delayed aircraft. So its look like not much growth from either side going into next year

 

[General Lee]

I see some ratio like 7 to 5 for DAL with little more or less in some parts to make a middle ground intergration. Along with that Fences that protect current DAL and NWA pilots in the aircraft they are currently holding so as long that pilot doesnt not bid out of that 767 or A330 they can have it for 20 years or how long they want. The merger with Usair and AWA is a mess since Usair has a very very old pilot group and AWA had a very young group. Plus Usair had over 1000 pilots on furlough with 12 plus years of seniority where 12 yr AWA pilots where captains. Going by DOH would have been more of a staple in that scenario. NWA DAL overall have a better way to merge in a middle ground with a ratio tied to DOH than Usair AWA ever could.

There are other things you have to consider, like current pay, number of widebodies, future orders, and career expectations with regard to the DC9s and 742s. Sorry, DOH has nothing to do with this, and the USAir East guys learned that quick. Our list was relative seniority along with protection for our junior guys if the 742s and some DC9s were parked (sounds very plausible)---hence the bottom 400 all NWA. It would NOT be fair for any of our people to be furloughed thanks to NWA planes going away. And even if we have nobody furloughed, the list should still reflect that possibility. The Nicelau award had the top 500 all USAir East because of a certain type of flying that was "different" to AWA's, and the bottom 400 here reflect the possibility of a furlough.(very very good chance the cargo ops plus the 742s are bye bye soon)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I agree, but we will not have to leave it up to the arbitrator.
The want a bump they may get it.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Don't you know that only the nwa 787s will be affected by the strike, not any of the aircraft delta has on order. Oh, don't forget all the md90s and 717s that they are getting.

I see some ratio like 7 to 5 for DAL with little more or less in some parts to make a middle ground intergration. Along with that Fences that protect current DAL and NWA pilots in the aircraft they are currently holding so as long that pilot doesnt not bid out of that 767 or A330 they can have it for 20 years or how long they want. The merger with Usair and AWA is a mess since Usair has a very very old pilot group and AWA had a very young group. Plus Usair had over 1000 pilots on furlough with 12 plus years of seniority where 12 yr AWA pilots where captains. Going by DOH would have been more of a staple in that scenario. NWA DAL overall have a better way to merge in a middle ground with a ratio tied to DOH than Usair AWA ever could. Also in the USA today a few days ago it said that with boeing on strike the 787 delivery is being delayed more along with DAL deliveries of 4 777 and some 757/737 for a total of 10 DAL delayed aircraft. So its look like not much growth from either side going into next year

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

What exactly do you mean? Did not look at all areas of dalpas proposed sli closely except for mine. Doh I am roughly 6800, straigh percentage 7300(500 with dohs junior to me now senior) and dalpas stovepipe about 7800(almost 1100 junior, now senior). Out of my hands.

I agree, but we will not have to leave it up to the arbitrator.
The want a bump they may get it.