DAL/NWA SLI Hearings in a nutshell

[Superpilot92]

With all due respect "Superpilot" much of the time you come off as a snot nosed kid. Your arguements are charged with adolscent emotion and missconstrued facts. Just my opinion which I have no doubt you will dissagree with.

You couldn't be more wrong. Here is the deal, i am junior now and will likely be junior afterwards therefore you wont see much flaming and bs posted from me. I dont know why you feel i post with "adolescent emotion" because i dont get emotional about this crap. Also my posts arent any more adolescent or snot nosed than anyone else, i guess you only mention that because i have mentioned i am "younger" . How old are you? Does your age make your posts anymore worthy of FI standards? I am here for the long haul regardless and I have way to much time left with this new company to let this stuff get to me. Does it get to you? Does the fact that i am "younger" bother you? IMHO, you either read to much into my posts or you dont like my optimism about this whole circus?

With that said thanks for the flame, i hope you feel "older" and more Crusty for doing so.

Take Care :beer:

 

[General Lee]

This is just a DALPA pipe dream. Not a chance this will fly. You can make numbers say whatever you like, as DAL is trying to do with these BS numbers. The expert witnesses DAL put on had to be a complete embarrassment as Mr. Katz ripped apart and easily disproved these so called "facts" and DAL numbers. I guess you can't blame DALPA for shooting for the moon. At least the NWALPA is positioning themselves for a middle of the road position which is much more likely to look like the final award.

Schwanker

Middle of the road? DOH? Come on now! USAir East asked for the same, and got relative seniority, which is a HECK OF A LOT closer to our proposal. And, everyone knows that the 742s and some of the DC9s are going away, which could have meant job losses, hence the bottom 400 or 500 being NWA pilots. Career expectations you know.... You can say that your side has a bunch of retirements coming up, and you should benefit from that. What about the same amount we have leaving 5 years after that? Can we benefit from those please? You have more senior pilots, with a frozen pension. That cancels that argument. Regardless, your side showed up looking sloppy, with a thin argument (we are older, we bring in more money(?), and the 787= DOH). It will be interesting indeed. I can't wait to buy all you guys beers in Bismark. (3rd and 5th rounds, actually)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Schwanker]

Middle of the road? DOH? Come on now! USAir East asked for the same, and got relative seniority, which is a HECK OF A LOT closer to our proposal. And, everyone knows that the 742s and some of the DC9s are going away, which could have meant job losses, hence the bottom 400 or 500 being NWA pilots. Career expectations you know.... You can say that your side has a bunch of retirements coming up, and you should benefit from that. What about the same amount we have leaving 5 years after that? Can we benefit from those please? You have more senior pilots, with a frozen pension. That cancels that argument. Regardless, your side showed up looking sloppy, with a thin argument (we are older, we bring in more money(?), and the 787= DOH). It will be interesting indeed. I can't wait to buy all you guys beers in Bismark. (3rd and 5th rounds, actually)


Bye Bye--General Lee

SS-
I didn't realize you viewed NWA as a USAIR East equivalent. As far as retirements, you benefit from yours from now thru infinity. That's fine with me. At the same time we should benefit from NWA retirements indefinately. Sounds good to me. You won't get anything close to what your proposing. It's as lopsided of a proposal as anyone could envision. Your witnesses sure struggled on cross as they not only couldn't defend this proposal, but they couldn't defend any of the numbers that were manipulated to build this BS list. I'm looking forward to the end as I expect these experienced arbitrators to do the right thing.

Schwanker

 

[PCL_128]

PCL:

You start by putting pilots in the most senior equipment they can hold, if everyone were bidding the most senior equipment they could hold.

Ahhh, that makes much more sense. Thanks for the explanation, Fins. Sounds like a fair proposal to me, but I'd have to hear the NWA arguments to see what their objections are.

 

[General Lee]

SS-
I didn't realize you viewed NWA as a USAIR East equivalent. As far as retirements, you benefit from yours from now thru infinity. That's fine with me. At the same time we should benefit from NWA retirements indefinately. Sounds good to me. You won't get anything close to what your proposing. It's as lopsided of a proposal as anyone could envision. Your witnesses sure struggled on cross as they not only couldn't defend this proposal, but they couldn't defend any of the numbers that were manipulated to build this BS list. I'm looking forward to the end as I expect these experienced arbitrators to do the right thing.

Schwanker

I would guess you might not have reviewed your NWALPA proposal, since it looked like a term paper done the night before it was due. As far as what you deserve, you should get what your future fleet plan would look like in two years, and yours is losing planes. Our retirements will match yours in 5 years, and you getting credit for yours will equal what we should get for ours. So, that would be a wash there. USAir East ASKED FOR DOH, which is the same thing you did. How did they do? They got pretty close to what we are asking for. Your older pilots will leave with a frozen pension, and that is significant, since you got our better rules (and pay---even though you lost some things like minimum hours and time and a half after 80 hours), and we don't get a pension, ever. I hope the arbitrators look at our proposal and see that it really is middle of the road. If we had gone full tilt like you guys with DOH, we would have asked for a staple.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Ahhh, that makes much more sense. Thanks for the explanation, Fins. Sounds like a fair proposal to me, but I'd have to hear the NWA arguments to see what their objections are.

We supposedly have a '97 hire who is a 767 domestic Captain in LA. We hired a bunch in '96 (me included). We have guys who were furloughed after 9-11 that are MD88 Captains now too, and they pay a heck of a lot more than a DC9.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Schwanker]

I would guess you might not have reviewed your NWALPA proposal, since it looked like a term paper done the night before it was due. NWALPA didnt have to put in a bunch of smoke and mirrors in an effort to support fabricated numbers.
As far as what you deserve, you should get what your future fleet plan would look like in two years, and yours is losing planes. Per who? Your expert witness?
Our retirements will match yours in 5 years, and you getting credit for yours will equal what we should get for ours. So you'd be fine with a dynamic list if that's the case.
USAir East ASKED FOR DOH, which is the same thing you did. How did they do? We ain't USAir! I thought you might know the difference. They got pretty close to what we are asking for.
Your older pilots will leave with a frozen pension who cares?, and that is significant, since you got our better rules (and pay---even though you lost some things like minimum hours and time and a half after 80 hours), and we don't get a pension, ever. I thought all the pay/workrules were negotiated as part of the JOINT pilot working agreement. Some would argue them being better though. I hope the arbitrators look at our proposal and see that it really is middle of the road. They will look at it and won't find it anywhere near "middle of the road." Your guys couldn't even defend it. If we had gone full tilt like you guys with DOH, we would have asked for a staple. Full tilt? If we had, we'd have asked for a staple! DOH is middle of the road.


Bye Bye---General Lee

SS-
Nice try, but the arrogance by your side is going to do them more harm than good.

Schwanker

 

[FDJ2]

The HUGE flaw I see with this approach is it gives no consideration to guys bidding QOL.

There is no reordering of the lists. A position on the new seniority list is not determined by what a pilot chooses to fly, but rather what his seniority is capable of holding if everyone bid what their seniority can hold.

 

[FDJ2]

Wont work because the Junior position at NWA is the SO position. Your logic puts junior nwa pilots above more senior nwa pilots that are on the DC9. Both MEC's wish lists are BS and neither will end up the "winner" It will fall in the middle somewhere.

1. It is not a wish list.

2. It was the NWA pilots who claimed that the second officer position is equal to a NWA 757 first officer.

3. You aren't integrated by what you hold, but by what your seniority could hold in a stove pipe. IOW, strict seniority bidding.

 

[FDJ2]

Now compare the retirement numbers at NWA to the Numbers at DAL in the next 5,10, 15 years.

The numbers also don't reflect a shrinking NWA mainline, a growing DAL mainline, more DAL orders, more DAL options, more DAL rolling options, the disproportionate pay raise the NWA pilots get or that by adopting DAL scheduling rules and manning formulas NWA pilots will realize a need for 350-500 additional positions.


Also the numbers dont consider that NWA was actively looking for the Mainline Replacement aircraft for the DC9. NWA hasnt pulled the trigger on which DC9 replacement aircraft it was going to go for but its no secret they were pursuing the C-Series.

Had there not been a merger NWA wouldn't and couldn't have just parked all the DC9s without replacing it with something at Mainline.

The replacement aircraft for the DC-9 was going to be 77-110 seaters, all paying significantly less than the DC-9 and "super" less than the MD-88. It would still be the most junior equipment on the property and therefore should be ranked as such.

 

[FDJ2]

This is what bargaining is like you ask for more than what you will take so when you come down its still somewhat okay. I am sure when the NWA dream idea is put out it will seem way unfair. Then they will meet half way.

This is not a bargaining position. In an arbitration proceeding, where you get one shot to present a position based on ALPA merger policy, you balance the equity value of each position at each airline and present the most compelling position you can based on the goals set forth in ALPA merger policy. You don't squander it on a dream idea.

The arbitrators are not there to split the difference between each position.

 

[Schwanker]

The numbers also don't reflect a shrinking NWA mainline, a growing DAL mainline, more DAL orders, more DAL options, more DAL rolling options, the disproportionate pay raise the NWA pilots get or that by adopting DAL scheduling rules and manning formulas NWA pilots will realize a need for 350-500 additional positions. Shrinking NWA mainline? Maybe if you believe your less than credible witness. It's amazing how those claimed DAL aircraft orders don't really exist either. Your guy didn't fair too well.

The replacement aircraft for the DC-9 was going to be 77-110 seaters, all paying significantly less than the DC-9 and "super" less than the MD-88. It would still be the most junior equipment on the property and therefore should be ranked as such. It's nice you have more knowledge of NWA fleet plans than NWA executives. Maybe you should give Steenland a call and fill him in.

Schwanker

 

[Schwanker]

This is not a bargaining position. In an arbitration proceeding, where you get one shot to present a position based on ALPA merger policy, you balance the equity value of each position at each airline and present the most compelling position you can based on the goals set forth in ALPA merger policy. You don't squander it on a dream idea.

The arbitrators are not there to split the difference between each position.

It that's the case, it makes you wonder why DALPA took such an extreme preposterous position.

Schwanker

 

[Noserider76]

It that's the case, it makes you wonder why DALPA took such an extreme preposterous position.

Schwanker

Just wondering what makes relative position by equipment more extreme/preposterous than DOH with super-premium widebody flying? Come to think of it I don't know what we think we're going to accomplish with this discussion anyway.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Nice try, but this is about what I assumed it would be two to three years before all of this came out.
I think that the arbitrators will agree.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

We will accomplish nothing, but Relative by equipment is not extreme. It is a moderate position. We could have gone off in left field and asked for a staple. It is apparent that DALPA is trying to be realistic in its goals.

 

[~~~^~~~]

FDJ2 and ACL65,

Thanks for posting.

 

[Bluto]

You aren't integrated by what you hold, but by what your seniority could hold in a stove pipe. IOW, strict seniority bidding.

So, why organize it based on aircraft category at all? Why not just use the seniority list as a whole? Is there any benefit to the theoretical bid position? Aside from making my blood pressure skyrocket for a few hours while I contemplate a panic-bid to a wide-body commute?

 

[General Lee]

SS-
Nice try, but the arrogance by your side is going to do them more harm than good.

Schwanker

Come on man. Arrogance? I would say thinking DOH would work was arrogance. USAir East tried that too (not comparing you directly, rather your position), and it didn't work. Let's look at what you bring to the table, including aircraft and future orders, current expansion plans, hubs and viability of hubs (DTW looks like a winner with the auto industry), and retirements (we both have large chunks, so a dynamic list just wouldn't work---you could move up, then we would move back to the original positions a few years later---NAH) I am not trying to be offensive here, but rather practical. As I stated on the previous page, your extremism for DOH could have been countered by us asking for a staple, and that wouldn't have been nice. (Southern Hosipitality and all)

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[ACL65PILOT]

You can do that, and you should have that option if you did prior to DCC.
That is the point. The same bidding power from one day to the next. Even after DCC and SOC. It keeps career expectations similar.