DAL/NWA SLI Hearings in a nutshell

[ACL65PILOT]

The lists are rationalized prior to this. IE Bid the most senior position you can hold, with no regard for base. That way it takes care of what you are worried about. Same with your list.

 

[nwaredtail]

They are merged just like your pilots on bypass recall. If you are on the list you are part of the plan. Not just active.
I thought that the list was very fair.

Sure you did, because you will get to move up 2000 numbers in the next 5-10 years that you would not have had the merger not happened. I, on the other hand, lose 3 years of seniority and only move up 1/2 of what I would have.

I am sure the 2001 hires that are below the DAL pilot hired 5 months ago appreciate where they are at also.

Don't think for a second this is what will be awarded. This is DAL's dream shot.

 

[Superpilot92]

DC-9 Captain positions would be merged with wide bodied first officer positions, not below them. Based on pay and historic bidding paterns, similarly, 747-200 second officer positions would be merged with 767/757 first officers.

Wont work because the Junior position at NWA is the SO position. Your logic puts junior nwa pilots above more senior nwa pilots that are on the DC9. Both MEC's wish lists are BS and neither will end up the "winner" It will fall in the middle somewhere.

 

[ThisistheDream]

This is what bargaining is like you ask for more than what you will take so when you come down its still somewhat okay. I am sure when the NWA dream idea is put out it will seem way unfair. Then they will meet half way. I think alot of pilots bid equipment for QOL and what ever you can hold to be based at home!!!!I wont be surprised to see alot of pilots bidding to smaller equipment once all has settled and there are aircraft being moved to new bases..Ex NWA 330 going to ATL or DAL 777 going to DTW.. If your a NWA 330 FO living in DTW and based there and the the A330 moves to ATL or most of them so you would have to commute, alot would bid a smaller plane to stay based in DTW, like 320, md88, 737 FO. Just like some senior DAL FO bidding smaller planes for QOL of life allowing more junior pilots to get a 767 slot when they would normally be a md 88 FO. Trying to base seniority on what you fly today when people bid for QOL is not reflecting true seniority. What really matters about seniority is if furlough happens then it doesnt matter what your flying if your number is called then you get the furlough.

 

[~~~^~~~]

As others have noted, we have yet to see NWA's presentation. It would be smart to keep the emotions in check and look at the objective data.

Delta's position is relative seniority based on equipment and flying category. This is similar to most arbitration rulings and provides for the least disruption of current bidding patterns.

If anyone wanted my opinion, it is that Delta again headed for the middle of the road, which might not help their case with either side. The NWA pilots here obviously don't appreciate the larger and growing equipment categories. At the same time the Delta pilots who think this through will realize that the percent or two increase in relative seniority is not enough compensation for the smaller and shrinking NWA fleet that results in at least 470 more pilots than available jobs in the short term.

It is my opinion that the Delta opener, and the logic used to arrive at this position, is EXACTLY what I would expect an arbitration panelist to award. This was probably done with the realization at the end of the day the DAL MEC will represent the NWA pilots and frankly needs their votes to stay in office.

Both sides are doing an excellent job thus far. I'm open minded and look forward to learning the perspectives of the NWA witnesses.

 

[nonstop]

I thought that the list was very fair.

I'm afraid you're in for a big disappointment.

 

[Superpilot92]

Just a thread to compare notes on what we are reading from the hearings. This is just my interpretation of the hearings and could be incorrect. Does anyone know of a source for the actual exhibit documents?
-----

Pilot staffing:

Beginning on a baseline of July 2008, Delta’s pilot staffing needs will increase as follows:
by 2010 + 407
by 2011 + 506
by 2012 + 518

Northwest’s staffing will decrease:
by 2010 (+106 International – 800 domestic) = - 695
by 2011 – 647 (or ~ 48 more pilots than required in 2010)

If DC9’s remain at 61 jets and 747-200’s stay
by 2010 – 398
by 2011 - 93

Then the following day, October 4th, corrections were made generally changing NWA’s numbers plus 90 pilots, reflecting the fact that the NWA baseline DC9 fleet was already smaller than the economist expert had believed to be the case.

* anyone know the status of NWA's staffing shortfall under DAL's minimum staffing models? I had always thought this was a red herring, but am surprised no mention has been made of this so called 400 pilot shortfall in the SLI discussions.....

DAL SLI Methodology: (relative seniority by category)

Delta: 6,555 revenue pilots in service (not counting long term leaves, disability, etc…)
NWA: 4,271 “” “”

747-400 top 3.6%
777-200 top 3% and so on ….

Relative seniority, grouped by:
International Captain (777, 767-400, 767ER & 747, A330 and some 757’s)
Domestic Large Gauge Captain (ie 767, 757)
Domestic Medium Gauge Captain (737, A320, MD88/90)
Domestic Small Gauge Captain (DC9) and International First Officer
Domestic Large Gauge First Officer
Domestic Medium Gauge First Officer
Domestic Small Gauge First Officer

Three year fence. NWA pilots can bid across fence into DAL open pilot slots when there are insufficient Delta pilots bidding the slots. (I'm guessing the 787 is a NWA category, or a new category)

Rationale: “We saw information presented about
[FONT=&quot]10 [/FONT]the markets that the aircraft had been used
[FONT=&quot]11 [/FONT]in, the way that the DC-9 is used and the
[FONT=&quot]12 [/FONT]tremendous similarity between it and the
[FONT=&quot]13 [/FONT]76-seater. They are basically interchangeable
[FONT=&quot]14 [/FONT]in Northwest usage right now and that is the
[FONT=&quot]15 [/FONT]fair and equitable place for them to be.”

…. the 12th year captain pay rate
[FONT=&quot]7 [/FONT]on the DC-9 is about $5 less and it's real
[FONT=&quot]8 [/FONT]close to the 76-400 12th year pay rate. But
[FONT=&quot]9 [/FONT]when we analyzed the list, the July 1st list
[FONT=&quot]10 [/FONT]that was provided to us by the Northwest
[FONT=&quot]11 [/FONT]merger committee representatives, we found
[FONT=&quot]12 [/FONT]that despite the pay rate on the Northwest
[FONT=&quot]13 [/FONT]side of a DC-9 captain being slightly higher
[FONT=&quot]14 [/FONT]than a first officer on the 737-400, the
[FONT=&quot]15 [/FONT]seniority, the average seniority of the pilots
[FONT=&quot]16 [/FONT]that were serving in positions as a DC-9
[FONT=&quot]17 [/FONT]captain was junior to not only the 747-400
[FONT=&quot]18 [/FONT]first officers and not only the 747-200 first
[FONT=&quot]19 [/FONT]officers, but also junior to the A-330-first
[FONT=&quot]20 [/FONT]officers.
[FONT=&quot]21 [/FONT]So there was a very clear, if you
[FONT=&quot]22 [/FONT]want to say, bidding choice that the more
[FONT=&quot]23 [/FONT]senior pilots chose to remain as first
[FONT=&quot]24 [/FONT]officers on international wide-body
[FONT=&quot]25 [/FONT]operations,

NWA SLI Methodology:

Date of Hire

Now compare the retirement numbers at NWA to the Numbers at DAL in the next 5,10, 15 years. Also the numbers dont consider that NWA was actively looking for the Mainline Replacement aircraft for the DC9. NWA hasnt pulled the trigger on which DC9 replacement aircraft it was going to go for but its no secret they were pursuing the C-Series.

Had there not been a merger NWA wouldn't and couldn't have just parked all the DC9s without replacing it with something at Mainline.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Sure you did, because you will get to move up 2000 numbers in the next 5-10 years that you would not have had the merger not happened. I, on the other hand, lose 3 years of seniority and only move up 1/2 of what I would have.

Sounds like a compelling argument for a big old long fence.

Give me a 25 year fence and you can have whatever seniority number you want. What would you think of that?

I think the most important aspect of this will be the conditions and restrictions that effect our bidding.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I can live with disappointment.
But that FIN states this looks like what an arbitrator would award. They make think differently of a few of the assumptions, but overall it is very close to what I would expect from this panel.

 

[xjhawk]

A solution to this entire thing? Let's be real here, it is NOT going to happen. Who will be happy? Maybe some Delta guys who scored a seniority number which would offer them a better position. A NWA pilot who now gets to be based at home at a new base. But for the most part, I think its a mudd sandwich for most. The real issue is here? How to make this go down without long term headaches like past integrations (red book/blue book etc). Seniority is everything, I have neither Delta or NWA seniority number and nothing at stake here unless some regionals are gobbled up and stuck at the bottom, but thats unlikely. But what I am saying is there does not seem to be a real fair way to get this done. So lets be hopeful they can minimize the damage at those meetings.

 

[AirportBum]

Sounds like a compelling argument for a big old long fence.

We've all seen what that does for pilot group unity. I think the best idea I've heard so far is the 3 year fence, to stabilize everything, then get the pain over with. No need to drag this out over 25 years.

 

[nonstop]

If anyone wanted my opinion, it is that Delta again headed for the middle of the road

You guys are a riot! Seriously, I love you guys. Keep up the posts.

Remember when you fly with NWA pilots in the future, be sure to tell them about your disappointment that 10% of their list wasn't stapled to yours.

 

[~~~^~~~]

NWA hasnt pulled the trigger on which DC9 replacement aircraft it was going to go for but its no secret they were pursuing the C-Series.

Had there not been a merger NWA wouldn't and couldn't have just parked all the DC9s without replacing it with something at Mainline.

The Canadians canceled the C Series when NWA made it clear they were not purchasers of that paper airplane.

The DC9 replacement is the so called 70 to 100 seat E Series and CRJ's.

Your side sold your flying down the river and my side came along and agreed with the outsourcing. IMHO our energies are much more effectively directed to trying to get the E jets on the property than sitting around wishing for a DC9 replacement that isn't coming.

Did your Pediatrician give you a sucker right before administering your shot? Well the "DC9 replacement" is your lolly pop. Not only was the thing never ordered, those who sold your representatives that story aren't even in the position to effect the decision that is made.

 

[Superpilot92]

The Canadians canceled the C Series when NWA made it clear they were not purchasers of that paper airplane.

The DC9 replacement is the so called 70 to 100 seat E Series and CRJ's.

Your side sold your flying down the river and my side came along and agreed with the outsourcing. IMHO our energies are much more effectively directed to trying to get the E jets on the property than sitting around wishing for a DC9 replacement that isn't coming.

Don't get the political eyewash (like RJ's going away due to fuel prices) confused with the facts (the RJ is morphing into a mainline domestic narrowbody jet and if management had their way, we would be a small division of a travel brand management company).

IMHO the C-series isnt going to happen because NWA backed out of it because of the upcoming merger. You may see geared engines on the Airbus's in the future though.

The FACTS are that NWA couldnt just replace all the DC9s with "RJ's" and NOW DAL cant either based on the current environment and scope limitations. You seem to overlook that the company does have its hands tied in a couple different ways in regards to replacing the DC9's with "RJ's".

It is ALL of our Jobs to ensure that the protections we have now and the future protections we can get are treated as a priority.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Remember when you fly with NWA pilots in the future, be sure to tell them about your disappointment that 10% of their list wasn't stapled to yours.

Well 10%, or 11%, would correlate to the DC9's.

Instead you have 2% for a much larger fleet of widebodies, longevity bumps that result in 36% pay increases for many near the bottom, an opportunity to fly for a growing (instead of shrinking) airline, very significant pay raises, a better working environment, and much better job security.

I'm surprised none of the NWA pilots are appreciative of the place they find themselves in. After all, they sure voted for that JPWA.

I plan on keeping to happy talk on the airplane and expect others to do the same. Otherwise they might have to call a reserve up for the return leg.

Flightinfo is the place for debate, not the flight deck.