Congrats FLOPS!!! Who will be next?

[Diesel]

Rusty Walace- Washed up race car driver
Rustyfan- Angry washed up pilot who hates his loveless marriage.

Honey please pick me up.... please please.

 

[LJDRVR]

I'm going to chime in here in Rusty's favor. The IAM MEC chairman at his former place of employment single-handedly caused the destruction of a great airline. To protect his membership? No. Over some great altruistic principle? No. Charlie Bryan took the steps necessary to allow Frank Lorenzo to purchase Eastern Airlines simply because he pathologically hated Frank Boreman, and was willing to destroy the livelihood of thousands of workers simply to stick it to a single individual.

Rustyfan's experience with that single, career altering event more than qualifies him to sit on this board and make fun of you folks who think unions are the end-all be all of worker's nirvana.

Yes, you negotiated a great contract. We are all proud of you for that. But you guys and gals that work for NJ need to take some time and LISTEN to the guys like Rusty who've seen the dark underbelly of corrupt, self-serving union leadership. You folks NEED to educate yourselves about other MEC's in our industry and see what's going on in an effort to prevent those types of issues from happening to you. Do y'all know what's happened with CALALPA in the last several years? You need to find out. Are you aware of what's going on in the industry involving alter-ego and holding company scams? Your beloved teamsters have chosen to represent a group of excrement who are making a complete joke of a CBA negotiated by a group of ALPA pilots. Careers are being destroyed and wages forever lost simply because the teamsters would like to collect some dues.

Am I saying that you all should become bitter and angry about all of this? Of course not. Again, you guys and girls negotiated a great contract. But if you fail to heed the lessons of those who've gone before, you'll eventually end up chewing on somebodies ____ sandwich. Listen to what guys like RustyFan are saying. He's got some experience there you can't even fathom. To dismiss him as bitter and irrelevant is to lose a great resource for your own education and enlightenment.

I only have two years of experience with pilot unions, but I can tell you as a student of my industry, many of his points that you dismiss are true.

 

[BrnJetFuel]

I prefer to take the middle ground. Keeps things more "fair and balanced," to quote a media outlet with which I am sure you are very familiar.

Sir, someone has to tell you that if you think you represent the middle ground, you should know that you actually make those who do, appear extreme far-right.


Spare us all you're thoughts. You're time will be better utilized bending one of you're life partners over a desk.

 

[Ultra Grump]

BrnJetFuel -

Funny. I think this is the first, or possibly second, time I've chimed in on a political discussion (albeit an off-topic sidebar), so it'd be pretty hard for anyone here to tell exactly what my political leanings are. My personal opinion on the Iraq war and Al Qaeda does not define my entire political thought process. It apparently does yours, though.

Thanks for the input. BTW - spell check doesn't seem to be doing it for you. There is a big difference between "your" and "you're." Look it up.

 

[Muddauber]

I'm going to chime in here in Rusty's favor. The IAM MEC chairman at his former place of employment single-handedly caused the destruction of a great airline. To protect his membership? No. Over some great altruistic principle? No. Charlie Bryan took the steps necessary to allow Frank Lorenzo to purchase Eastern Airlines simply because he pathologically hated Frank Boreman, and was willing to destroy the livelihood of thousands of workers simply to stick it to a single individual.

Rustyfan's experience with that single, career altering event more than qualifies him to sit on this board and make fun of you folks who think unions are the end-all be all of worker's nirvana.

Yes, you negotiated a great contract. We are all proud of you for that. But you guys and gals that work for NJ need to take some time and LISTEN to the guys like Rusty who've seen the dark underbelly of corrupt, self-serving union leadership. You folks NEED to educate yourselves about other MEC's in our industry and see what's going on in an effort to prevent those types of issues from happening to you. Do y'all know what's happened with CALALPA in the last several years? You need to find out. Are you aware of what's going on in the industry involving alter-ego and holding company scams? Your beloved teamsters have chosen to represent a group of excrement who are making a complete joke of a CBA negotiated by a group of ALPA pilots. Careers are being destroyed and wages forever lost simply because the teamsters would like to collect some dues.

Am I saying that you all should become bitter and angry about all of this? Of course not. Again, you guys and girls negotiated a great contract. But if you fail to heed the lessons of those who've gone before, you'll eventually end up chewing on somebodies ____ sandwich. Listen to what guys like RustyFan are saying. He's got some experience there you can't even fathom. To dismiss him as bitter and irrelevant is to lose a great resource for your own education and enlightenment.

I only have two years of experience with pilot unions, but I can tell you as a student of my industry, many of his points that you dismiss are true.

Good post, LJDRVR.


Muddy

 

[jetwash]

I'm going to chime in here in Rusty's favor. .

Now that is the way you should respond on this board, while I may not agree with what you stated I do appreciate a calm responce. Rustyfan's message is getting lost in all of his childish ranting and raving. You send a 3 year old to the corner for a "Time Out", What do you do with a grumpy old pilot in total meltdown?

 

[VVJM265]

What do you do with a grumpy old pilot in total meltdown?

I already said my opinon above, but that is pretty darn funny! :laugh:

 

[netjetwife]

To point out that one shouldn't paint all unions/locals with the same brush, does not dismiss Rusty's comments. To insist, for the sake of fairness, that 1108 be judged on its own track record and no one else's, does not dismiss history. That said, Rusty is not the only pilot around who has had those types of experiences. I'm sure that in a Local that now numbers over 3,000 pilots, there is a vast resource of collective wisdom to draw upon. Those pilots are far better suited to advise their Local whose decisions affect their careers/lives. It must also be noted that there are times when a fresh outlook to go along with a new beginning is the right perspective because a jaded attitude from a person carrying a lot of "baggage" can, and often does, unduly influence that person's opinion. Take a wait and see attitude, if you will. But unbiased folks will agree that that , at least, is the fair thing to do, rather than to condemn an organization just because they can point to a tarnished reputation held by someone else, someplace else, at another time.

 

[LJDRVR]

NJW:

This thread began to take on a life of it's own when you posted a reply to Rusty's initial bullet statements castigating him for each of his assertions. You took a 'holier than thou' sort of an attitude in your response, and suggested that he was not only incorrect, but foolish for attempting to somehow smear the efforts of your husband's local.

With you kind indulgence, I'd like to point out several things here:

Four out of five of RustyFan's comments are 100% correct and true at my workplace. The one that isn't most certainly is at other operators.

Rusty's responses were perhaps a bit rude, but you flung the poo first. Go back and read page 1 of this thread again. You get what you give.

You talk about unbiased people in your post. No such thing. You cannot afford to take a wait and see attitude with your union. If you do, you will have reformed coke-heads flying your jets, union crashpads full of booze, populated with grounded and/or fired female pilots walking around buck naked as sex toys for union leadership. If NJ pilots take a wait and see attitude with their union, and fail to learn the difficult lessons of labor/management relations and the malfeasance that often accompanies them, your husband's peers will be condemned to much poorer quality representation that they deserve, weakened leverage during negotiations and side letters and LOA's that you won't believe, many of them without any membership vote.

You seem like an intelligent, nice person. Take some free advice: You can't even begin to imagine what Rusty is talking about. There's nothing wrong with that, but before you dismiss him out of hand as some sexist old coot, ask yourself: "What does he know that I don't? Why is he so bitter about unions? What can I do to better educate myself about the dangers he was attempting to warn me about before this thread got sidetracked into a personality contest?"

NJW; I'm an airline pilot, but I'm also a student of aviation history. Rusty could tell you stories that would stand your hair on end. Human nature hasn't changed since 1989, please take some time to find out what he's talking about Instead of rejecting him out of hand. (Drop me a PM, I'd be happy to send you my copy of Grounded by Aaron Bernstein. A Splash of Colors by John Nance is a good one also)

Hey! we each have 727 posts.

 

[DBCOOPER]

Why does every thread always seem to turn into a Netjets discussion?

My congrats go out to 67% of FLOPS pilots who are going to try and do something about their current problems over there. Flying as a fractional pilot can be a very challenging job, you guys deserve much more than what you're getting. Hey, do what you have to do....that's my simple opinion when it comes to getting screwed.

Oh, sorry but I have to say that RUSTYFAN.....I really don't think that you are angry at the world as some are saying here. I believe that you have been around the block and I would pay BIG money to watch you debate NJW and her husband "Iceman" on the O'Reilly Factor.

 

[Flyerjosh]

It's common knowledge that prudent business practice compels those involved in a deal to "get it in writing". So why should it be any different with a pilot's career? Talk about a big ticket item! Then there's the "safety in numbers" logic. That's a time tested theory, right? You wouldn't advise a home owner to go without insurance, surely? Think of union representation as on the job coverage for those times that disaster strikes through no fault of your own. Those companies out there that do have respect for their pilots shouldn't object to putting their policies in writing and following a pre-arranged process for handling disagreements between the parties. Astute business leaders/managers would demand that for themselves so why would they begrudge the same for their employees?

I don't see a whole lot of unionized CEO's out there... It's possible to get your agreement with the company in writing without a union. Personally I think that unless you absolutely need one, you're better off without a union. It just brings too much BS and ill-will to the table.

 

[Flyerjosh]

LJDRVR,

Nice posts. I too agree that there are some serious downs to unions. My biggest thought on the whole fractional/union thing is that eventually there will come a point where owners just get fed up with the BS.

Many of the companies that own frational planes with NJA, FLOPS, and other fractionals are companies that don't have unions. Other's have their own feelings on the subject.

What I tend to hear from my contacts in the 135 world that do NJA flying is that owners are realizing that the customer service just isn't there. When you have so many crews that come and go and have the typical "issues" that come up in this industry, it's hard not to see a difference.

My company was approached by a management company last year. They offered to take over the company aircraft and provide pilots at a much lower per hour rate. Fortunately my boss knows the advantage to having complete control over not only the operation of the plane, but also the crew that interacts with our customers and employees.

I can say that I have been extremely "underwhelmed" by the fractional crews that I have come across in FBOs and out at flight safety. In my mind, they are no different than airline crews, and most of them care more about themselves than the objectives of their passengers. It's an attitude that is bound to cause some issues if the trend continues.

 

[netjetwife]

NJW:

This thread began to take on a life of it's own when you posted a reply to Rusty's initial bullet statements castigating That's undeservedly harsh. I was debating the issues. I'm not the one on this board that makes ugly personal remarks. him for each of his assertions. You took a 'holier than thou' sort of an attitude in your response, From your perspective, perhaps. I will say that I was strong in my defense of 1108 and their leaders. and suggested that he was not only incorrect, but foolish for attempting to somehow smear the efforts of your husband's local. Foolish? I shall clarify that. I was trying to say that his attitude was wrong and unfair. He was incorrectly applying the behavior of other groups to pilots he does not, to my knowledge, personally know.

With you kind indulgence, I'd like to point out several things here: I have no problems with civil discourse. It's bigotry that I dislike.

Four out of five of RustyFan's comments are 100% correct and true at my workplace. The one that isn't most certainly is at other operators. Be that as it may, that does not mean that it applies to the pilots of Local 1108.

Rusty's responses were perhaps a bit rude, but you flung the poo first. Go back and read page 1 of this thread again. I certainly will. Your request is reasonable, and I appreciate the polite tone, even if we don't arrive at the same conclusion. You get what you give. I beg to differ-- strongly! I never make disparaging remarks about the diet, lifestyle, character etc of others. I stick to the issues and respond only to the posts. In all honesty, you cannot say the same about several others here.

You talk about unbiased people in your post. No such thing. Who is looking for perfection? There are many people who believe in judging others on their own merits. That is all I'm asking for 1108. You cannot afford to take a wait and see attitude with your union. I can see that you were confused by my sentence structure using the implied you. That was a plea for others to give 1108 a chance before they wrote them off as being just like the others they hold in such low esteem. Read my posts and you will see that I advocate vigilance and hard work; I have used those exact words. If you do, you will have reformed coke-heads flying your jets, union crashpads full of booze, populated with grounded and/or fired female pilots walking around buck naked as sex toys for union leadership. If NJ pilots take a wait and see attitude with their union, and fail to learn the difficult lessons of labor/management relations and the malfeasance that often accompanies them, your husband's peers will be condemned to much poorer quality representation that they deserve, weakened leverage during negotiations and side letters and LOA's that you won't believe, many of them without any membership vote. Agreed, and if you will notice that I have posted much the same idea already. I just left out the unclothed women. I seem to have more optimism than others posting here. I think that comes from knowing the leadership of 1108 personally.

You seem like an intelligent, nice person. Thanks, I make it a point only to post on subjects that I know something about. Take some free advice: You can't even begin to imagine what Rusty is talking about. If you limit that to my own personal experience, you'd be correct. However, I can have discussions with other pilots who do know what he is talking about and don't mind taking the time to explain it, politely. Yourself, for example. There's nothing wrong with that, but before you dismiss him out of hand as some sexist old coot, ask yourself: "What does he know that I don't? Why is he so bitter about unions? What can I do to better educate myself about the dangers he was attempting to warn me about before this thread got sidetracked into a personality contest?" I have no problem with what you are suggesting. I have already said that I think the 1108 pilots have enough history and experiences like Rusty's, between the 3,000 plus members, that given due vigilance they will be able to avoid mistakes and/or misdeeds made by others before them. What I take exception to, and any person can apply it to any situation, is pre-judging a particular group based on past practice of others that happen to share the same occupation or affiliation. The pilots of 1108 are fully aware that being the first fractional local gives them the opportunity and duty to set a high standard for their industry. I firmly believe that they deserve to be allowed to make the most of that opportunity unencumbered by the prejudices of others who base their opinions on the conduct of other groups who have little, or nothing, to do with 1108. To put it simply, I am asking for the members of this board to give 1108 a fair shake because that is the right thing to do.

NJW; I'm an airline pilot, but I'm also a student of aviation history. Rusty could tell you stories that would stand your hair on end. As can my husband and other NJ pilots that I know. Human nature hasn't changed since 1989, Given the biased, sexist attitudes expressed in some of the posts, I would push that date back much further. please take some time to find out what he's talking about Instead of rejecting him out of hand. Unfortunately, it also seems to be human nature for bad news to spread faster than good news. Union corruption is not an obscure topic. What I am rejecting out of hand, is the suggestion that 1108 has the aforementioned problems simply because they are affiliated with the Teamsters. I reject all forms of bigotry as being inherently unfair to the individual(s) being stereotyped. (Drop me a PM, I'd be happy to send you my copy of Grounded by Aaron Bernstein. A Splash of Colors by John Nance is a good one also) Although I appreciate the offer, I must pass at this time. I'm already behind in my family's private fight for justice. I have been splitting my time between the two causes that I feel so strongly about, but I see this time as a critical one for frac families and I wanted to voice my support for their efforts.

Hey! we each have 727 posts.

I hadn't noticed, but thanks for the update. Thanks also for the respectful discourse.
LB/NJW

 

[jetwash]

LJDRVR,

What I tend to hear from my contacts in the 135 world that do NJA flying is that owners are realizing that the customer service just isn't there. When you have so many crews that come and go and have the typical "issues" that come up in this industry, it's hard not to see a difference.
.

I can't speak for NJA but at Flight Options we went through a period last spring where management was causing all of the customer service problems and then leaving it to the pilots to take the heat from the owners.

They went through a trial period where they did not want to sell off any trips to charter companys. They would then delay the owners 4 or 5 hours just so another Flight options aircraft could do the trip. We were picking up passengers who have been waiting for over 4 hours for their aircraft and were lied to by the owner service reps. All we could do was to tell them the truth of what was happening. Almost all the owners I talked to say that the pilots are great but the service they get from our operations is what makes them mad.

 

[netjetwife]

LJDRVR,

I can say that I have been extremely "underwhelmed" by the fractional crews that I have come across in FBOs and out at flight safety. In my mind, they are no different than airline crews, and most of them care more about themselves than the objectives of their passengers. It's an attitude that is bound to cause some issues if the trend continues.

I have long held the opinion that low morale will eventually affect job performance. That cause and affect relationship has been noted by many experts in countless jobs. More often than not, the blame can be traced back to poor management and/or labor relations trouble. Your observation should be taken as a wake-up call to pilots and managers, alike.

I would think that pax are more concerned with the safety, reliability, and service offered by the flight crew, and are much less concerned whether or not the pilots belong to a union.

 

[netjetwife]

How could I have forgotten?

I suppose it's because my knowledge of those situations comes second hand from the pilots' board, usually, and occasionally from my husband. I can say, that I have heard lots of examples of the situation you describe, Jetwash. My husband tells me that the owner service reps are loath to say "no" to the owners who make requests/demands that aren't possible to fulfill, so they leave it to the pilots to deal with a sticky situation. Booo!

 

[RustyFan]

Rustyfan- Angry washed up pilot who hates his loveless marriage.

Dottie (I call her “Hottie Dottie”) and I have been happily married for 34 years, although it’s none of your dang business! Yeah I come from a different world, from a galaxy far, far away. It called the United States of America 1960 edition. I grew up drinking milk out of glass bottle, and swung the gear for guys who fought in WWII. A hamburger and french fries was a treat you got once a month if you were lucky, the closet place to us was 40 minute drive.

After collecting the personal remains of 29 fine soldiers in 1968 and boxing it up to have it returned to their loved ones, I grew up real fast. And I learned nothing in this life is free or a given. And when I marched out the door waiving a union flag it was the last time I saw my beloved DC9. Less than 3 weeks later, Scabs were crossing my picket line and flying my plane. I went to work in a Hardware Store.

Woman, you are a certifiable nutcase. You’ve been sucking off that silver spoon called your husband from day one. You live in “Perfectville” USA. Where everyone is a Democrat, the boss works for the employees, and everyone gets free healthcare. And heaven forbid anybody tries to make a buck by going it alone! You keep dreaming and living there. For your kids sake I hope that horse your on makes it to the finish line, because if you and the Mr. ever go through what my family did, stick a fork in ya, your done!

I’ve been calling life like I see it for 40 years, I’m not stopping now. My biggest gripe is stupid people finally figured out how to run for political office, and unions still think they are protecting American jobs.

But good things happen to those that persevere, my girls married two worthless men, a banker and a lawyer and gave me 4 grandchildren who think Pappy “ROCKS”. And they love Rusty Wallace, and I play X-Box with them! What do you think about that, Putz!

LJDRVR, Charlie Bryan looked at me in the face a week before we went out and said, “Don’t worry, Randy and the boys in Herndon already know what’s going to happen”. Yeah, they knew alright… we all lost our jobs!

 

[LJDRVR]

LJDRVR, Charlie Bryan looked at me in the face a week before we went out and said, “Don’t worry, Randy and the boys in Herndon already know what’s going to happen”. Yeah, they knew alright… we all lost our jobs!

It's too bad his lying down on the tarmac before you guys performed the first powerback at Eastern was an idle threat. Somebody shoulda ran that scumbag right over.

For what it's worth, there are a few of us Young uns' out there who know what really happened. Not enough to make a difference, but I do my best to educate as many as I can.

Here's a request: Tell us some stories. Don't worry about defending yourself to those here that will respond, just put em' out there. Start a new thread if you'd like. The average line pilot today has no idea who Hank Duffy, Charlie Bryan, Dick Ferris, Harding Lawrence, Winpey and Ed Acker are, and believe it or not the younger ones probably don't even know about Carl Icaahn, Bob Crandall or Francisco Lorenzo.

Hey! you ever fly with Dennis McMillian? Drop me a PM if you did.

 

[Semore Butts]

Whoah! Wat a minute NJW!!!!!!

I know we share some of the same beliefs relating to Netjets.

I'm from a military backround (still at it) so I don't know alot about what Rusty is talking about.

To refer to Rusty as washed up is just wrong. I prefer to refer to him and myself as "past our APEX".

That still doesn't mean anything though, his ass is on the line everytime he "turns a turbine".

My 50th birthday this year (and this whole upcoming year) will be somewhere near Kanduhar. Therefore, I contend that neither myself, nor Rusty are washed up. Hell, I'm just getting the hang of it.

I think I could put up with the issues of his I don't agree with, just to learn what I could from someone who has certainly has a facinating aviation career. (1968? Tet?).

Take care,

 

[Semore Butts]

Profuse apologiies NJW

Screwed up again (and still alive)

It was Diesel that made the remark I responded too!

Sorry.

I don't think dragging someones family into the debate is right.