Congrats FLOPS!!! Who will be next?

[ghostrider64]

Well the intitial shot was fired by Netjets and it looks as though FLOPS is coming along for the ride. Who will be next to understand how important a collective unionized voice in fractional aviation is.

Time to look in the mirrors boys and girls.

 

[Geronimo4497]

Thats kind of a weird statement. If a company treats you well, why bother? I can understand that for the bigger companies that have crappy relations between management and pilots, but come on, it is not for every place.

 

[netjetwife]

It's common knowledge that prudent business practice compels those involved in a deal to "get it in writing". So why should it be any different with a pilot's career? Talk about a big ticket item! Then there's the "safety in numbers" logic. That's a time tested theory, right? You wouldn't advise a home owner to go without insurance, surely? Think of union representation as on the job coverage for those times that disaster strikes through no fault of your own. Those companies out there that do have respect for their pilots shouldn't object to putting their policies in writing and following a pre-arranged process for handling disagreements between the parties. Astute business leaders/managers would demand that for themselves so why would they begrudge the same for their employees?

 

[XShipRider]

Who will be next to understand how important a collective unionized voice in fractional aviation is.

Having seen much in a short time at that frac I say "well done" to those
who persevered. I still say watch your back (and your union!) to ensure
they don't do to you what the auto unions did to that industry.

 

[Humphreybogart]

It's common knowledge that prudent business practice compels those involved in a deal to "get it in writing". So why should it be any different with a pilot's career? Talk about a big ticket item! Then there's the "safety in numbers" logic. That's a time tested theory, right? You wouldn't advise a home owner to go without insurance, surely? Think of union representation as on the job coverage for those times that disaster strikes through no fault of your own. Those companies out there that do have respect for their pilots shouldn't object to putting their policies in writing and following a pre-arranged process for handling disagreements between the parties. Astute business leaders/managers would demand that for themselves so why would they begrudge the same for their employees?

With all that you said in that post, how do you then explain what happened to the pilot group (and others) at places at US Air, Delta, United...you get the picture. It doesn't seem as if their union had the "power in numbers" that you talk about. No matter how strong you think ANY union may be, management always seems to be stronger and get what they want. "Get it in writing" is nothing but a bunch of words put on a page. Unions are NOT the cure for everything, a good work ethic and a strong management team is.

 

[Guitar rocker]

With all that you said in that post, how do you then explain what happened to the pilot group (and others) at places at US Air, Delta, United...you get the picture. It doesn't seem as if their union had the "power in numbers" that you talk about. No matter how strong you think ANY union may be, management always seems to be stronger and get what they want. "Get it in writing" is nothing but a bunch of words put on a page. Unions are NOT the cure for everything, a good work ethic and a strong management team is.

Bogart....if 911 didnt happen, perhaps what is happening today at DAL, UAL, US Air wouldnt be such a factor. Sure, DAL pilots have taken a 46% pay cut since 911............but their senior mgmt people are getting raises/bonuses/severances as an incentive to stay in mgmt............so they say. No wonder the pilots have threatened to strike if their pay is cut any further......why does mgmt always come running to the pilots and want them to bear the burden???? You wouldnt have said the above had 911 not happened. Yah, as someone here said, you DO need to have "it in writing" and rules to go by especially when it gets that much bigger. Otherwise mgmt is just going to take advantage of you. Due to the size of CS, perhaps this hasnt happened to you guys yet, but as you grow.......unfortunately things do change.

I remember working at a smaller commuter............no union, and things were OK. It grew too quickly, a lot of new faces in terms of pilots and schedulers/mgmt and a lot of desperation in getting the job done especially when our code share was up for review.....which meant using and abusing the pilots (forcing the pilots to fly when they shouldnt...heaven forbid you say NO).......we all realized that we needed some rules that the company must abide by, but after that thought the whole ship sunk and their was chapter 11 again. Just a small example of mgmt gone bad...............started OK and we were treated well, but they were feeling the pressure and in the end, it always falls on the pilots.

 

[Humphreybogart]

If you remember right before 911, the country was starting to fall into a recession. 911 just sped things along and the management teams of the airlines (which I agree are grossly overpaid) were quick to jump on the wartime/disaster release clauses of the given contracts to relieve their companies of the financial burden that they created by not anticipating the recession that was beginning to start. It was their easy way out and I believe that all of those front line execs are a bunch of slime balls.

With that being said, the unions representing the poor folks that were being furloughed was not able to do a thing to prevent this, hence my point from my previous post. My points are made towards "good" management teams. The slimeballs that were bucking the rank and file guys, I have no use for.

 

[LAZYB]

If you remember right before 911, the country was starting to fall into a recession. 911 just sped things along and the management teams of the airlines (which I agree are grossly overpaid) were quick to jump on the wartime/disaster release clauses of the given contracts to relieve their companies of the financial burden that they created by not anticipating the recession that was beginning to start. It was their easy way out and I believe that all of those front line execs are a bunch of slime balls.

With that being said, the unions representing the poor folks that were being furloughed was not able to do a thing to prevent this, hence my point from my previous post. My points are made towards "good" management teams. The slimeballs that were bucking the rank and file guys, I have no use for.

It's not often that I pay any attention to HP, but that's pretty accurate. Prior to 911 there was a large over capacity, too many seats in the major markets; and a unprofitable "market share" pricing program predicated by the oxymoron - airline management.

911 just sped up the inevitable...

 

[realityman]

Holy upside-down universe Batman! For a change, I find myself agreeing with Humphry.........up to a point.

True, things were going the way they were going at the airlines regardless of any of them having unions. Furloughs would have happened. But then again, I don't recall anyone saying that unions could solve ALL problems and overcome ALL obstacles placed in their way.

However, I wonder what kind of pay the pilots at DAL and the like would now be making if they HADN'T had a union. The pilots pay has been nearly cut in half, and management wants more. Should they work for regional wages, or even for free?

Overcapacity prior to 911 was a direct result of poor management, not unions. Everyone wanted to be the biggest, instead of the best. Expand at any price was the creedo. And when it came back to bite them on the ass? The pilots (and in fact most or all of the labor force) had to take it on the chin while management people bailed out with cushy severance packages or golden parachutes.

This is where I diverge from Humphrey. I realize it's just my opinion, but job security is worth almost as much to me as my actual wage is. And by job security, I'm not just talking about not being furloughed. As I said before, I agree with Humphrey that some furloughs are unavoidable, union or no union, but what about the rest of the job security? I'm very happy (truly) that CS treats its pilots well, but if they (management) feels that the pilots must take a pay cut, or the type of hotels being used will be downgraded, or that health insurance must be slashed, how will the pilots prevent it, or even negotiate a reduction less draconian than management may want?

No union = no real job security. That, in my opinion anyway, is why it's not a bad idea to have one even where management treat you well. I think SWA is a perfect example of that.

Just food for thought.

 

[RustyFan]

Who will be next?

I can tell you who it won’t be… NetJets International.

FLOPS Pilots,

• Go cut your tongues out, they are now useless. Your union will speak for you.
• Find the biggest sh*t bag on your property, he’s now the benchmark, and the person your union will fight to protect.
• Say adios to around 2% of your paycheck.
• Get use to hearing the company say, "sorry I can’t do that for you, it’s against the contract, and if I give you an extra day off for your moms funeral, the union will file a grievance against the company".
• Don’t get mad when you see your union leaders doing everything you thought they wouldn’t with your $$. If you thought your management made bad decisions, what until you see what 6 pilots do when they try to act like corporate executives.

Everything in life has two sides, you guys just decided to go the wrong way on a one way street. Good luck!