Congrats FLOPS!!! Who will be next?

[ghostrider64]

Well the intitial shot was fired by Netjets and it looks as though FLOPS is coming along for the ride. Who will be next to understand how important a collective unionized voice in fractional aviation is.

Time to look in the mirrors boys and girls.

 

[Geronimo4497]

Thats kind of a weird statement. If a company treats you well, why bother? I can understand that for the bigger companies that have crappy relations between management and pilots, but come on, it is not for every place.

 

[netjetwife]

It's common knowledge that prudent business practice compels those involved in a deal to "get it in writing". So why should it be any different with a pilot's career? Talk about a big ticket item! Then there's the "safety in numbers" logic. That's a time tested theory, right? You wouldn't advise a home owner to go without insurance, surely? Think of union representation as on the job coverage for those times that disaster strikes through no fault of your own. Those companies out there that do have respect for their pilots shouldn't object to putting their policies in writing and following a pre-arranged process for handling disagreements between the parties. Astute business leaders/managers would demand that for themselves so why would they begrudge the same for their employees?

 

[XShipRider]

Who will be next to understand how important a collective unionized voice in fractional aviation is.

Having seen much in a short time at that frac I say "well done" to those
who persevered. I still say watch your back (and your union!) to ensure
they don't do to you what the auto unions did to that industry.

 

[Humphreybogart]

It's common knowledge that prudent business practice compels those involved in a deal to "get it in writing". So why should it be any different with a pilot's career? Talk about a big ticket item! Then there's the "safety in numbers" logic. That's a time tested theory, right? You wouldn't advise a home owner to go without insurance, surely? Think of union representation as on the job coverage for those times that disaster strikes through no fault of your own. Those companies out there that do have respect for their pilots shouldn't object to putting their policies in writing and following a pre-arranged process for handling disagreements between the parties. Astute business leaders/managers would demand that for themselves so why would they begrudge the same for their employees?

With all that you said in that post, how do you then explain what happened to the pilot group (and others) at places at US Air, Delta, United...you get the picture. It doesn't seem as if their union had the "power in numbers" that you talk about. No matter how strong you think ANY union may be, management always seems to be stronger and get what they want. "Get it in writing" is nothing but a bunch of words put on a page. Unions are NOT the cure for everything, a good work ethic and a strong management team is.

 

[Guitar rocker]

With all that you said in that post, how do you then explain what happened to the pilot group (and others) at places at US Air, Delta, United...you get the picture. It doesn't seem as if their union had the "power in numbers" that you talk about. No matter how strong you think ANY union may be, management always seems to be stronger and get what they want. "Get it in writing" is nothing but a bunch of words put on a page. Unions are NOT the cure for everything, a good work ethic and a strong management team is.

Bogart....if 911 didnt happen, perhaps what is happening today at DAL, UAL, US Air wouldnt be such a factor. Sure, DAL pilots have taken a 46% pay cut since 911............but their senior mgmt people are getting raises/bonuses/severances as an incentive to stay in mgmt............so they say. No wonder the pilots have threatened to strike if their pay is cut any further......why does mgmt always come running to the pilots and want them to bear the burden???? You wouldnt have said the above had 911 not happened. Yah, as someone here said, you DO need to have "it in writing" and rules to go by especially when it gets that much bigger. Otherwise mgmt is just going to take advantage of you. Due to the size of CS, perhaps this hasnt happened to you guys yet, but as you grow.......unfortunately things do change.

I remember working at a smaller commuter............no union, and things were OK. It grew too quickly, a lot of new faces in terms of pilots and schedulers/mgmt and a lot of desperation in getting the job done especially when our code share was up for review.....which meant using and abusing the pilots (forcing the pilots to fly when they shouldnt...heaven forbid you say NO).......we all realized that we needed some rules that the company must abide by, but after that thought the whole ship sunk and their was chapter 11 again. Just a small example of mgmt gone bad...............started OK and we were treated well, but they were feeling the pressure and in the end, it always falls on the pilots.

 

[Humphreybogart]

If you remember right before 911, the country was starting to fall into a recession. 911 just sped things along and the management teams of the airlines (which I agree are grossly overpaid) were quick to jump on the wartime/disaster release clauses of the given contracts to relieve their companies of the financial burden that they created by not anticipating the recession that was beginning to start. It was their easy way out and I believe that all of those front line execs are a bunch of slime balls.

With that being said, the unions representing the poor folks that were being furloughed was not able to do a thing to prevent this, hence my point from my previous post. My points are made towards "good" management teams. The slimeballs that were bucking the rank and file guys, I have no use for.

 

[LAZYB]

If you remember right before 911, the country was starting to fall into a recession. 911 just sped things along and the management teams of the airlines (which I agree are grossly overpaid) were quick to jump on the wartime/disaster release clauses of the given contracts to relieve their companies of the financial burden that they created by not anticipating the recession that was beginning to start. It was their easy way out and I believe that all of those front line execs are a bunch of slime balls.

With that being said, the unions representing the poor folks that were being furloughed was not able to do a thing to prevent this, hence my point from my previous post. My points are made towards "good" management teams. The slimeballs that were bucking the rank and file guys, I have no use for.

It's not often that I pay any attention to HP, but that's pretty accurate. Prior to 911 there was a large over capacity, too many seats in the major markets; and a unprofitable "market share" pricing program predicated by the oxymoron - airline management.

911 just sped up the inevitable...

 

[realityman]

Holy upside-down universe Batman! For a change, I find myself agreeing with Humphry.........up to a point.

True, things were going the way they were going at the airlines regardless of any of them having unions. Furloughs would have happened. But then again, I don't recall anyone saying that unions could solve ALL problems and overcome ALL obstacles placed in their way.

However, I wonder what kind of pay the pilots at DAL and the like would now be making if they HADN'T had a union. The pilots pay has been nearly cut in half, and management wants more. Should they work for regional wages, or even for free?

Overcapacity prior to 911 was a direct result of poor management, not unions. Everyone wanted to be the biggest, instead of the best. Expand at any price was the creedo. And when it came back to bite them on the ass? The pilots (and in fact most or all of the labor force) had to take it on the chin while management people bailed out with cushy severance packages or golden parachutes.

This is where I diverge from Humphrey. I realize it's just my opinion, but job security is worth almost as much to me as my actual wage is. And by job security, I'm not just talking about not being furloughed. As I said before, I agree with Humphrey that some furloughs are unavoidable, union or no union, but what about the rest of the job security? I'm very happy (truly) that CS treats its pilots well, but if they (management) feels that the pilots must take a pay cut, or the type of hotels being used will be downgraded, or that health insurance must be slashed, how will the pilots prevent it, or even negotiate a reduction less draconian than management may want?

No union = no real job security. That, in my opinion anyway, is why it's not a bad idea to have one even where management treat you well. I think SWA is a perfect example of that.

Just food for thought.

 

[RustyFan]

Who will be next?

I can tell you who it won’t be… NetJets International.

FLOPS Pilots,

• Go cut your tongues out, they are now useless. Your union will speak for you.
• Find the biggest sh*t bag on your property, he’s now the benchmark, and the person your union will fight to protect.
• Say adios to around 2% of your paycheck.
• Get use to hearing the company say, "sorry I can’t do that for you, it’s against the contract, and if I give you an extra day off for your moms funeral, the union will file a grievance against the company".
• Don’t get mad when you see your union leaders doing everything you thought they wouldn’t with your $$. If you thought your management made bad decisions, what until you see what 6 pilots do when they try to act like corporate executives.

Everything in life has two sides, you guys just decided to go the wrong way on a one way street. Good luck!

 

[netjetwife]

Job security = peace of mind. Isn't that the daily benefit of insurance? Hence, my analogy likening it to union membership. So even if the unthinkable never happens to you (and be assured it does happen), in the meantime, you have the peace of mind that comes from knowing that IF it did, you'd have a Union Steward standing by your side, making sure the contract was followed.

When work rule violations occur, you have someone to help you grieve it. Compliance violations are a serious matter and the penalties are set accordingly. If a company chooses not to follow the rules---it's gonna cost them! After shelling out millions, you'd think they'd figure out that it's cheaper and easier just to keep their word.

No, the union wasn't able to prevent my husband from being furloughed from American after 9/11, but we know who to thank for the stock options he was given as a consolation prize.

 

[CE750Driver]

I can tell you who it won’t be… NetJets International.

FLOPS Pilots,

• Go cut your tongues out, they are now useless. Your union will speak for you.
• Find the biggest sh*t bag on your property, he’s now the benchmark, and the person your union will fight to protect.
• Say adios to around 2% of your paycheck.
• Get use to hearing the company say, "sorry I can’t do that for you, it’s against the contract, and if I give you an extra day off for your moms funeral, the union will file a grievance against the company".
• Don’t get mad when you see your union leaders doing everything you thought they wouldn’t with your $$. If you thought your management made bad decisions, what until you see what 6 pilots do when they try to act like corporate executives.

Everything in life has two sides, you guys just decided to go the wrong way on a one way street. Good luck!

Ah, dont worry Rusty, you can still bitch all you want when you are yanking gear for me.

You have decided to let RTS speak for you. We will see how smart that is.

 

[Guitar Guy]

RustyFan - what would you have suggested that the FLOPS pilots do in lieu of voting in a union? By their own accounts, the status quo wasn't working and the company-sponsored "FOPA" didn't appeal to them.

 

[netjetwife]

• Find the biggest sh*t bag on your property, he’s now the benchmark, and the person your union will fight to protect.
• This statement just shows how little you know about the process. Each case is decided on its own merit, and not all are accepted. Pilots may choose to present a frivolous grievance, but the union will refuse to carry it forward. Likewise, no one can save the job of a pilot who truly deserves to lose it. Union Stewards are successful because the rules and the case facts are on the pilot's side.
• Say adios to around 2% of your paycheck.
• This weak excuse has been covered repeatedly by NJ pilots who gained far more (in the salary increase and/or grievance settlements) than they paid for the cost of their union investment.
• Get use to hearing the company say, "sorry I can’t do that for you, it’s against the contract, and if I give you an extra day off for your moms funeral, the union will file a grievance against the company".
• Stooping this low in your desperate attempt to discredit 1108 goes against the rules of common decency that both sides follow in times of tragedy. Again, your ignorance is showing. The grievances originate with the affected pilots; their union is just there to assist them in the process, fighting on their behalf--not against them.
• Don’t get mad when you see your union leaders doing everything you thought they wouldn’t with your $$. If you thought your management made bad decisions, what until you see what 6 pilots do when they try to act like corporate executives.
• This Chicken Little attitude is without basis. NJA pilots are quite satisfied with how their union dues have been spent. They have seen those dollars returned many times over. 1108's leadership has shown responsibility in handling the finances and accountability to the pilots that elected them.

How many frac pilots are now members of 1108? Over 3000? I'd hardly call that a "street". It sounds more like a highway to me! Flt Ops pilots voted with their eyes wide open. Congratulations to them and their families!
Netjetwife

 

[gunfyter]

Rusty,

Advice from an old Right Guard or BAN deodorant commercial:

"Never let them see you sweat"


​

See you in 2008.

I can tell you who it won’t be… NetJets International.

FLOPS Pilots,

• Go cut your tongues out, they are now useless. Your union will speak for you.
• Find the biggest sh*t bag on your property, he’s now the benchmark, and the person your union will fight to protect.
• Say adios to around 2% of your paycheck.
• Get use to hearing the company say, "sorry I can’t do that for you, it’s against the contract, and if I give you an extra day off for your moms funeral, the union will file a grievance against the company".
• Don’t get mad when you see your union leaders doing everything you thought they wouldn’t with your $$. If you thought your management made bad decisions, what until you see what 6 pilots do when they try to act like corporate executives.

Everything in life has two sides, you guys just decided to go the wrong way on a one way street. Good luck!

 

[Hawkered]

Flexjet and Avantair should be next.

 

[Alae]

Well, let's see....

FLOPS Pilots,

• Go cut your tongues out, they are now useless. Your union will speak for you.

I think we'll keep them, thanks. Since our Union is US, we'll be speaking for ourselves; and for the first time in quite a while, our management will actually have to listen.

• Find the biggest sh*t bag on your property, he’s now the benchmark, and the person your union will fight to protect.

Not quite. Our Union will fight to protect any of us from undue harassment from management over refusal to do things which are unsafe or not legal. As for pilots who can't or won't cut the mustard, that's what our Union's Professional Standards Committee is for.

• Say adios to around 2% of your paycheck.

I spend more than that on cable television and broadband. Plus, it's tax-deductible. I'm over it.

• Get use to hearing the company say, "sorry I can’t do that for you, it’s against the contract, and if I give you an extra day off for your moms funeral, the union will file a grievance against the company".

Actually, if an issue isn't covered in the contract as being either mandatory to do, or expressly forbidden, the Company isn't prohibited from it. I doubt something like your Mom's funeral would be covered in our contract; but one supposes that a more general policy such as bereavement leave might be addressed. Notwithstanding, if you really needed the extra day, don't you suppose there are other creative ways intelligent people can handle such a case?

• Don’t get mad when you see your union leaders doing everything you thought they wouldn’t with your $$. If you thought your management made bad decisions, what until you see what 6 pilots do when they try to act like corporate executives.

Like what, exactly? Harley-Davidson motorcycles? Free travel on Company aircraft? Tickets to the SuperBowl? Complete transparancy of financial transactions has been a point insisted on by our Union since this drive started, and I wouldn't expect that to change now.

Everything in life has two sides, you guys just decided to go the wrong way on a one way street. Good luck!

For those of us who actually work here, it seems to many of us (67% at least) that we have been stuck in the middle of the road while one speeding management bus after another has run us down. Yesterday, we made our way to the crossroads and erected a traffic signal. In the coming months we will be working to get our Company off this side-street, over to the nearest on-ramp, and back up to freeway speed.

Regards,
Mike

 

[netjetwife]

Well said, Mike! I'm sure that many other frac pilots see their situation much the same way.

1108---CHANGING THE FRACTIONAL INDUSTRY, A COMPANY AT A TIME

 

[G100driver]

Having seen much in a short time at that frac I say "well done" to those
who persevered. I still say watch your back (and your union!) to ensure
they don't do to you what the auto unions did to that industry.

What exactly did the auto unions do there industry? Make crappy, ugly cars ... nope they just produced what management told them to. Not think about fuel effency ... nope management again. Build bohemeth cars (which by the way made lots of money for everyone back in the day) ... nope, management again.

If Honda was based in Detroit instead of Japan, perhaps we all be singing the praises of how the auto unions are the shinning light in America's working class. Do not kid yourselves, we are ALL working class.

One of the great falicies in today's neo-conservative movement is everyone seems to think it is a bad thing when a group collectively raises its standard of living. Another great myth is that organized labor is the cause of today's financal woes in industry. (See 1st paragraph if you forgot what I was talking about).

Since when did all the pilots on this board become super-millionares and feel that labor should be giving their efforts at a reduced rate to those who need it the least? Think about it.

We would all like to think that we are going to be treated fairly by our employers because we all take pride in what we do and work hard to achieve it. If you work for a large labor group you are very naive if you think this is going to get to retirement. It is the representation that assures your quality of life and also ensures that management plays by the same rules that you are expected to play by.

If you cannot stomach the politics involved with unions, work for a 91 flight department or work 135.

 

[RustyFan]

This statement just shows how little you know about the process.

Is that so Sugar Pants? The last time I checked I still had 21 years at Eastern Airlines. I've got more time sitting in LEC meetings listening to lawyers tell me why I have to strike than you have reading this forum. Say what ever makes you feel good inside, the fact is your feeding your kids frozen chicken nuggets instead of cooking a real meal so you can sit on the internet and blah blah blah about your husbands job! Go watch Opra and get with the program. Your about as clueless as they come in knowing your "union" history.

Oh yeah honey, one more thing... When it came time to go on strike and shut-er-down, I was in the front of the pack. So dont tell me what it takes to get respect in this business. Ya free loading *****.

Ah, dont worry Rusty, you can still bitch all you want when you are yanking gear for me.

Not gonna happen there Little Chucky. I "was" going to retire, but now the paystubs are adding up to $175k for only working 4 months a year. I guess I can hang out for just 3 more years. I've said it once, now let me say it again:

THE TEAMSTERS CANT TOUCH ME! NO MATTER HOW HARD THEY TRY.