Congrats FLOPS!!! Who will be next?

[realityman]

Agreed Gunfyter. The "ignore" function works pretty well.
Anyway, what does everyone have against NJWife? She has been an integral part of our success at NJA, as have many of the spouses of our pilots. As such, she has an intimate knowledge of what's been going on and what we went through to get where we are today.

It's kind of funny reading posts from folks who talk down about our union, yet really have no inside knowledge of how our specific (local 1108) part of the union is organized, runs things, holds itself transparent to the pilot group, and otherwise represents our interests.

Rusty and the like can bash all they want, it doesn't change the facts of what our union has actually accomplished and is continuing to do.

Again, I say that unions may not be right for everyone, or all operations, but they aren't all bad either.

Good luck to the FLOPS folks!

 

[SeaSpray]

I can tell you who it won’t be… NetJets International.

FLOPS Pilots,

• Go cut your tongues out, they are now useless. Your union will speak for you.
• Find the biggest sh*t bag on your property, he’s now the benchmark, and the person your union will fight to protect.
• Say adios to around 2% of your paycheck.
• Get use to hearing the company say, "sorry I can’t do that for you, it’s against the contract, and if I give you an extra day off for your moms funeral, the union will file a grievance against the company".
• Don’t get mad when you see your union leaders doing everything you thought they wouldn’t with your $$. If you thought your management made bad decisions, what until you see what 6 pilots do when they try to act like corporate executives.

Everything in life has two sides, you guys just decided to go the wrong way on a one way street. Good luck!

Excellent, cogent and accurate post.


SS

 

[RustyFan]

PPS- Still waiting to hear how you think the FLOPS pilots should handle this instead of getting a union, Rusty. Obviously, just talking with management hasn't yielded any positive results. What do you suggest they do?

That’s a fair and honest question.

If I felt I was getting the short stick at work, I would go to my boss and tell him. And if I’m having problems, then most likely everyone else is, which is even more the reason for management to get things fixed. I’d lay it out on the line and basically tell him what my problems were. If they didn’t get fixed, I’d most likely go find another place to work. And I’d badmouth the place so everyone else doing what I do would avoid working there. There is no doubt in my mind this country has bad managers, and the airline industry attracts them like a bug lamp. But unions don’t, can’t and never have fixed a bad management team.

And listening to the Queen Mother of NetJets sit on here and talk about a utopian world of unionized workers all pulling their weight and getting everything they desire is ridiculous. Her views of union’s sound a lot like the Communist Manifesto. Don’t forget boys, this is America, the land of the "free market economy". The obligation of a business leader or a B.O.D. is to pay the owner or share holders. Employees come in 3rd after the owners and customers. It called working for the man. If you don’t like taking orders, you’re free to seek employment elsewhere. If you think you deserve the wages of the man your flying, go start your own company. Don’t sit here and tell me because you sling a gear handle or drive a bus for that matter; you deserve equal with your boss or owner.

Come to think of it, after looking at the ‘ol Queen Mum sitting on that camel, I think I’m going to start calling her Queen Latifah.

 

[LAZYB]

Rustyfan, I was on your side until that Bill Clinton crack. At Least he did not kill 2500 soldiers and wounded countless others like the current occupant in the WH.

He said Bill Clinton and crack...:laugh:

 

[SeaSpray]

Rustyfan, I was on your side until that Bill Clinton crack. At Least he did not kill 2500 soldiers and wounded countless others like the current occupant in the WH.

Listen, you mental midget - your nation is at war. It was al Qaida that killed 2500 American servicemen and women another 3,000 innocents in New York; not your President. You are not qualified to speak for those America citizens that have chosen to don the uniform and protect our way of life. You will have earned that right when you have grown the cojones and character to serve your country. SS

 

[gunfyter]

. Don’t forget boys, this is America, the land of the "free market economy". The obligation of a business leader or a B.O.D. is to pay the owner or share holders. Employees come in 3rd after the owners and customers. It called working for the man. If you don’t like taking orders, you’re free to seek employment elsewhere. .

It was Ronald Reagan, Pope John Paul II, and Unions (Lech Walesa) that did in communism.

Unions are part of the FREE in free market.

Remember the goal of capitalism from the board games you played as a child. it was called MONOPOLY. Make no mistake. That is what RTS and WB seek in the Fractional market. They don't like Bombardier, and Cessna forming companies to compete with us. And how about that No Compete agreement there was with Gulfstream?

Unions seek the same result. Unions don't like wage competition.... surprise/ just as companies do not like PRICE COMPETITION.

Why would you think a cartel of labor is bad but the Cartels and monopolies of capitalism are good?

Unions... Part of what makes America great!
​

 

[Freedom]

SeaSpray

Dude: As you can tell by my handle, Freedom is VERY important to me, and yes I know, it does not come free. So thank you for your service.

But man, in the Civilian World, you need to stop doing so much saluting.

Here, it is indeed all about the almighty dollar.

Unfortunately, many Pilot Jobs and Pilot Careers are very demanding on our personal lives and the lives of our families. I agree with you, a Union is a last resort. But if a group of intelligent Pilots decide by a margin greater than that required to override a Presidential Veto that it is time, who are you to question there judgement? That just happened at Flight Options.

The Flight Ops Pilots decided to try to fix their current house, rather than buying a new one. They did so because they have a huge amount invested in their Company, and are only looking for a fair return on their investment of time in the company. Stockholders do invest Money. But employees invest years of their lives. Yes, they are paid for their time, but what's wrong with having a Strong Unified Voice in ones future?

If we all stayed within the Box all the time and never questioned authority, you probably would not be working at your PC or laptop today. Bill Gates helped make that possible by questioning the status quo of IBM.

I see your point that one could always vote with their feet so to speak. But when it may require moving for a new job, etc, many of us have to think beyond just our principles, and start thinking about our families. If I can keep junior in the same school, if I can keep my wife in a home she loves, maybe its worth fighting to try and make what I have better. I've watched my friends try to do it individually, and they lost their jobs. So I have concluded the smartest way to do it is collectively. They can't take us all out at once, there would be no one left to fly the planes.

Again, thank you for your Service.

 

[dime line]

"""I see your point that one could always vote with their feet"""

One day pilots will understand that a "vote with their feet" does nothing, another pilot will be hired at 1st year pay, a win for the company.

 

[netjetwife]

Can unions fix bad management? Not totally, perhaps, but they can minimize the affect that management has on the workers, by gaining a contract with fair wages and work rules. They can keep the QOL issues from being yanked at will by managers who are short-sighted. They can protect jobs by making the company adhere to a fair process. They can balance out the list of pros and cons , and thus enable a pilot to keep the job he enjoys, at the company he'd like to be able to afford to stay at. I have immense respect and admiration for those who stay and fight beside their co-workers instead of throwing in the towel and moving on. Doing the right thing may take longer and require a greater personal sacrifice, but there will be rewards along the way, and the result will be worth it in the end.

Bogart, I have visions of my friend's parrot (also named Bogart) every time you "squawk". My husband wasn't flying last week; he had company recurrent. Your "concern" was misplaced. Apparently, you don't follow the thread too closely. It was in my post. I hope this clears up your "misunderstanding". I realize we don't share the same degree of interest in communicating with others so you may not read each post as closely as I do.

Occasionally the pilots post about their feelings and motivations, concerning their families, and the impact that the job has on their lives. Make no mistake that it is always there, even if I mention it more than they do. Those of you bashing me would do well to keep that in mind. You see, I'm not the only one who makes the airport run. Many frac families would view the parking expense as one they can avoid, and on their wages, decide to fore-go the convenience. I understand that and sympathize with them.

To those who support my right to participate in this forum, my heartfelt thanks for your respectful words. It vindicates my belief in reaching out to others who share the same problems and frustrations. I don't have to know each of you personally to know what you and your families are going through. My care and my involvement go hand in hand.
Best Wishes,
LB/NJW

 

[RustyFan]

To those who support my right to participate in this forum, my heartfelt thanks for your respectful words.

And for those of us that don’t, Queen Latifah speaks again.

Queen Latifah: Kids, anybody hungry for McDonalds or some fish sticks?

Latifah Kids: Aahhh, mom! Not again!

Queen Latifah: Shut up you little monsters and go watch TV, mommy has business!

Latifah’s husband: Oh for the love of beer woman, can you please get off that d*mn computer just once!

Tell me this Queen Latifah, would you be on the internet 24/7 if your husband was a plumber with the local 215? If you love the internet so much why dont try a visit to the FoodNetwork.com forums.

 

[Ultra Grump]

...It was al Qaida that killed 2500 American servicemen and women...

Really? Where? I'm pretty sure Al Qaeda wasn't in Iraq until we went in first, on whose orders?

 

[XShipRider]

What exactly did the auto unions do there industry? Make crappy, ugly cars ... nope they just produced what management told them to. Not think about fuel effency ... nope management again. Build bohemeth cars (which by the way made lots of money for everyone back in the day) ... nope, management again..

Since you asked... I grew up in a UAW family. You couldn't grow up in
Michigan without knowing half the state worked for the auto companies.
I saw workers drinking before their 2nd shift, workers getting high before
their 3rd shift, workers drinking and smoking dope at their lunch hours.
How did they get away with such things? Easy, don't do it on company
property and there wasn't a single thing the company could do.

No doubt management designed junk which got poor mileage, rattled after
you left the dealer's lot, needed excessive maintenance, performed like
a tractor and handled like one too. But that had nothing to do with unions
demanding more and more and more... until the overhead associated
with producing a car drove the costs out of sight. All this in the name
of COLAs when in reality they were already paying unskilled labor (as
defined by the unions!) 3X normal wages. I have a brother-in-law who
just retired. His pay as an unskilled laborer was just shy of $70K per
year. Multiply that by a couple of hundred thousand.

We can all see what the domestic companies are going through today.
Hundreds of thousands have lost their jobs since the 80s with tens
of thousands more imminent. All due to high overhead. Read Iococca
(dated but relevant) to get a glimpse of the CEOs daily worries.

I think if you read my post correctly you'd find I'm behind the union effort
all the way. Not that it matters as I'm no longer in the industry. But
that aside, I have always felt unions as a necessary evil. But ONLY AS
LONG AS THEY REMEMBER WHO THEY WORK FOR! The minute they're
making demands on the company which threaten long-term viability...
they've become the UAW in drag.

I am also keenly aware your industry does not fit into the unskilled labor
market. To the contrary, your industry requires highly skilled persons
of high character. My point was unions started out protecting the
workers, all workers, but got off track somewhere making unrealistic
long-term demands which no longer fit into the "protecting the worker"
mantra. They started demanding for the sake of demanding. Ford
made a billion dollars profit one year some time back. Ford became the
next strike target. Did the billion dollars materialize the next year? No,
but that didn't stop the union from making demands based on that one
single year's profit. In fact, a strike target was picked every year.
Why? I'm not sure as compensation was very good already. If the
contract was written good enough to guarantee compensation increases
then why strike? Oh, forgot... to demand more.

I'm ranting, getting back to the pilots union...
High skills = high wages. It would be my hope that every pilot make
$100K starting wage. Why? Because anybody can land a plane in
perfect weather and all systems functional. It takes skill and knowledge
of flight when when the weather changes and the plane decides the
MEL is only created for human consumption.

 

[gunfyter]

Really? Where? I'm pretty sure Al Qaeda wasn't in Iraq until we went in first, on whose orders?

Are you out of your mind? Did you forget that we found the training camps where Saddam trained Al Qaida to hijack planes?

Stop listening to Air America. You need to get Hannitized.


We are killing Al Qaida every day in Iraq and like Martha says... thats a good thing.

No WMD my arse...

Russia tied to Iraq's missing arms - The Washington Times: Nation/Politics - October 28, 2004


Russia Moved Iraqi WMD

 

[G100driver]

XShip ... Nice post.

It is nice to see well reasoned posts with flaming for flaming sake.

:beer:

 

[G100driver]

Stop listening to Air America. You need to get Hannitized.

Gunfyter .. now that is funny.

Whether it be retoric from the left or the right it is all B.S.

Hannity may believe what he says but the only reason why he is on the air is because he has audience, not because he speaks the truth (much like Air America).

 

[realityman]

Rusty, you actually make very good points. The real discrepancy I have with you is that they aren't RELEVANT to the case at hand. You say that when labor wants to earn the same as the guy in the back that they've gone too far. Okay, that's fair. ut how does that relate to what NJA did and FLOPS is trying to do?
We at NJA got our 5th year captain pay to 90k. How is that out of line? And how would it be out of line for the FLOPS guys to want the same? Not even close to what the bosses make, or the folks in the back for that matter.

You make some very good points about OTHER unions. The corruption, the waste, the poor leadership. How does that apply to local 1108? What, exactly, has led you to see our local as "union business as usual?". All we did was ask for a fair wage. We all got a fairly nice raise. Anywhere between 30 and 50%. But we were making total crap wages previously (38K for a captain! Pathetic!), so it doesn't amount to anywhere near legacy carrier wages (or what they used to be). Most of our guys are NOT making 6 figures.

It just seems that you're almost angry about our success. Not sure why. And our local 1108 LISTENS to what we have to say. They've stood up for me every time the company violated the rules and I filed a grievance. That's good representation. They never pushed the company for anything extra, just that they follow the established rules. Is that so out of line?

Oh well, I guess you can't understand until you experience it (not past union experiences. I'm talking about 1108's experience).

 

[RustyFan]

The real discrepancy I have with you is that they aren't RELEVANT to the case at hand.

I’ll give you credit and accept your analogy of the situation at NJA. I do not have personal knowledge of the Teamsters 1108 other than:

• They were more ready than cop in a crack house to fire away during that pre strike period and call me a scab. Not to mention all the 135 pilots across the nation. Knowing full well the ALPA/IFL/Teamster criteria for status as a union strike breaker would not be met by EJA/NJI/NJE pilots operating their aircraft.
• They, not me authorized in writing the exception to your scope clause allowing the creation of NJI.
• They, not me are attempting to force a group of well deserving, good pilots into a union and most likely out of their aircraft.
• They overtly and quietly enforced a policy of breaking and writing up aircraft so as to cause the company grief and lost revenue.

Other than that, you’re right I have no knowledge of the inner workings of the Teamsters. But I just read where they represent the Alter Ego Airline *************************s out in STL. Now there’s a good for you… It’s your union, quite calling it the Association of Shared Aircraft whatever, or the 1108. You belong to the Teamsters!

As far as the FLOPS guys go, I can’t tell you what the right answer for that pilot group is. I think each individual must analyze the situation for himself and make the best career choice available. Yes, I acknowledge they are in a tuff situation.

As for your contract, all I have to say is it was about time. I think the wages and benefits are becoming for a group of professional pilots like NJA. Congratulations, hopefully now you’ve all stop your incessant b*tching and whining about Mr. Santulli and the fact he’s a multi-millionaire and your not.

 

[XPGuy]

I can tell you who it won’t be… NetJets International.

FLOPS Pilots,

• Go cut your tongues out, they are now useless. Your union will speak for you.
• Find the biggest sh*t bag on your property, he’s now the benchmark, and the person your union will fight to protect.
• Say adios to around 2% of your paycheck.
• Get use to hearing the company say, "sorry I can’t do that for you, it’s against the contract, and if I give you an extra day off for your moms funeral, the union will file a grievance against the company".
• Don’t get mad when you see your union leaders doing everything you thought they wouldn’t with your $$. If you thought your management made bad decisions, what until you see what 6 pilots do when they try to act like corporate executives.

Everything in life has two sides, you guys just decided to go the wrong way on a one way street. Good luck!

Wow. This guy has absolutely no clue how a union works. He couldn't be any further from the truth in every one of his bullet points. I pity him. And come November 2008, he will be on his way to joining the Net Jets 1108 when they go single carrier. ;-)

 

[RustyFan]

Wow. This guy has absolutely no clue how a union works.

Hey Num-Nuts; I bet I’ve paid more in union dues to ALPA than you made your first 5 years flying airplanes.

he will be on his way to joining the Net Jets 1108

And get it right there Deputy Dog… It’s the Teamsters, plain ole truck driving, Jimmy Hoffa, mafia owned Teamsters. The same ones that "speak" for the alter ego, union busting outfit HoJets out in STL.

You can put a million dollar gown on a heavy set girl….

She’s still just a fat chick in a pretty dress.

 

[GVFlyer]

Really? Where? I'm pretty sure Al Qaeda wasn't in Iraq until we went in first, on whose orders?

You are spectacularly uninformed.







~