Compass agreement

[Fly4hire]

No kidding!!!!!!!!!!!

There is no discussion of bringing CPZ on at anything other than bottom-of-the list.

The fact is an integration is a long ways off without a number of fundamental issues resolved:

First and foremost - representation and integrity of the flow,

Second, an objective analysis of is it, or can it be made to be profitable to the mainline and support a pay scale that would be acceptable to the pilots,

Third, limiting the overall number of 76 seat acft at the DCI's - does NO good if we get 36 E175's and then DAL can outsource even more,

Fourth, governance issues concerning claims to be made by other DCI's.

These actions are a combination of company initiated, section 6, ALPA BOD, and MEC issues. In other words ANY discussion of integration today is putting the cart so far in front of the horse as to result in nothing other than the whole topic being tabled.

What we CAN DO now is:

Keep CPZ on the MEC, Stop further erosion, and do a financial analysis of the benefits.

 

[profit]

Heyas,

Mesaba and Pinnacle had their chance in '02. Their membership allowed the 5 or 6 squeaky wheels to torpedo the whole thing.

They were -><- close to the golden ring. But NWA wasn't going to sign off on a deal like this for free. Was there a price to be paid? You bet...and about %80 of it was going to be paid by the mainline NWA guys.

The XJ and 9E guys were going to have to pony up the %20 balance at the table, but had the most upside potential. But the lifers wouldn't budge with the attitude "why should we pay ANYTHING...we don't want to flow". They were trying to press a bad hand, with the junior pilot's chips.

Guess what, now their junior Airlink (now DCI) guys are paying the price in so many ways, it's hard to count. Not only is there no flow, but the job security and whipsaw prevention that came with an all inclusive deal is gone, and all you hear about in the regional section is guys b!tching about who is stealing who's flying.

It would have been a great deal for all involved, but as is typical, you get a few individuals that tanked the whole deal because, gosh, they MIGHT have to temporarily give up something for the greater good.

So I don't want to hear it. You guys had your chance, and your leadership blew it. So when the NWA guys were forced in BQ to put something together, we made sure we had our end all setup that couldn't be sunk by a few guys who didn't want to play ball.

The NWA guys paid (that's right, with OUR concessions) to structure CPZ the way they did for a reason. IF a deal happens, and that's IF, you can bet we get paid back first. And if we decide that means bringing on the CPZ guys first, well, then, tough turkey.

Nu

NU, what in the WORLD are you talking about?

I was present and "highly involved" back in 02. There was no such thing on the table or out for a vote. Any flow discussions were killed by NW management. And there weren't any senior guys saying "no."

Can you provide some background on what sounds like revisionist history?

And upon the creation of Compass, many of us didn't really want to take the $20/hr paycut to go to Compass and become EMB170 captains. (wouldn't that be a form of undercutting or cheapening our positions?)

Further, back in 02, there was no flow. Today there is.


And it sounds to me that all of your exciting staple resolutions got smacked down pretty badly at the LECs.

 

[SplitBar]

The talk has all been about representation, NOT integration of CPZ pilots. Here is a sound bite from the XJ MEC Chairman on the subject...

"When the CPZ resolution was brought up, the Delta MEC chairman contacted us and told us they are only discussing the representation issue regarding CPZ (CPZ remain on DAL MEC, have their own LEC, or have their own MEC), NOT seniority integration provisions. I expressed my concerns that Mesaba is also a wholly owned affiliate with a flow through, and would like to be part of any discussions regarding seniority and/or flow modifications. He agreed and reiterated that the Delta MEC is only discussing the CPZ representation issue, NOT seniority list integration.

Please don’t let a vocal minority start a war between our airlines. We have worked well in the past securing both our flow through provisions, resolving joint issues and keeping open communications. We will accomplish more if we continue this positive relationship and remain unified.

MEC Chairman

 

[Fly4hire]

And it sounds to me that all of your exciting staple resolutions got smacked down pretty badly at the LECs.

Deferred because it's "unobtanium" until a host of other issues already discussed are resolved and would only lead to a hasty death of a concept that needs to be approached carefully and deliberately. Even the CPZ pilots in attendance agreed that over reaching would be counterproductive.
<br><br>
OTOH, resolutions to maintain the status quo on representation and study the integration issue was passed in 4 seperate LEC's.

 

[NuGuy]

NU, what in the WORLD are you talking about?

I was present and "highly involved" back in 02. There was no such thing on the table or out for a vote. Any flow discussions were killed by NW management. And there weren't any senior guys saying "no.".

My information comes directly from the source...dat der intrawebz.

And upon the creation of Compass, many of us didn't really want to take the $20/hr paycut to go to Compass and become EMB170 captains. (wouldn't that be a form of undercutting or cheapening our positions?).

You guys also didn't want a %100 bi-lateral flow. The ONLY reason you guys signed on to what little flow that XJ has, is because the hammer was coming down: "give us a flow down, or no shiny new jets". Same story as before...you want all the goodies, but none of the risk.

And it sounds to me that all of your exciting staple resolutions got smacked down pretty badly at the LECs.

Nope. None were presented. The resolutions that WERE presented were enthusiastically endorsed as one step in the process.

And from the way it sounds, you're a bitter old dude.

Sorry if the truth hurts, but if you guys want in the game, then pony up the seats. The day that XJ offers up a %100 bi-lateral flow, I'll be the first to cheer for some kind of staple for you guys. Heck, I'll even let you guys keep %10 of your seats for the "Eagle Rights" types.

In the meantime, you have very few seats at risk, which is just what you wanted.

Your "contributions" up to this point entitles you to very little other than a polite phone call.

Nu

 

[Schwanker]

You guys also didn't want a %100 bi-lateral flow. The ONLY reason you guys signed on to what little flow that XJ has, is because the hammer was coming down: "give us a flow down, or no shiny new jets". Same story as before...you want all the goodies, but none of the risk.
Nu

Nu-
You are correct. Compass would have never been created had MSA agreed to house the 76 seat jets on the same terms as Compass. The MSA MEC refused to conceed the new seats or super-seniority to the NWA furloughees, hence CPZ was created w/ 100% flowbacks + super-seniority. MSA wanted a 1 way street offering a spot at the bottom of the list for NWA furloughees yet desired NWA relax scope so they could get big shiny RJs. CPZ pilots were/are willing to accept the flowback and should be rewarded if at all possible.

Schwanker

 

[sweptback]

CPZ pilots were/are willing to accept the flowback and should be rewarded if at all possible.

What Compass pilots? At the time of its creation, there were no pilots there.

Also, it's easy to accept a flowback in times of hiring and prosperity, which is when Compass did most of its hiring.

 

[General Lee]

Nu-
You are correct. Compass would have never been created had MSA agreed to house the 76 seat jets on the same terms as Compass. The MSA MEC refused to conceed the new seats or super-seniority to the NWA furloughees, hence CPZ was created w/ 100% flowbacks + super-seniority. MSA wanted a 1 way street offering a spot at the bottom of the list for NWA furloughees yet desired NWA relax scope so they could get big shiny RJs. CPZ pilots were/are willing to accept the flowback and should be rewarded if at all possible.

Schwanker

And of course we have a whopping 8 Mesaba flow ups now at DL (FNWA), which allows us a whopping 8 numbers to flow down. Better than nothing, but I wouldn't expect us to ATTEMPT to do the same with Mesaba as we apparently are trying to attempt with Compass. Regardless, we have a flow down and flow up with Compass, and that will not change.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FmrFreightDog]

What Compass pilots? At the time of its creation, there were no pilots there.

Also, it's easy to accept a flowback in times of hiring and prosperity, which is when Compass did most of its hiring.

What's your point, exactly? Are you suggesting that the pilots who hired on at Compass after its creation, knowing full well the risks the job entailed, now try to fight to eliminate the flowback? As others have previously stated, the only reason there was a job at Compass to apply to was due to the fact that mainline NWA pilots saw an opportunity to create a limited safety net for potential furloughees when all the powers of the bankruptcy process were pushing in on all sides.

Every pilot who interviewed and hired on at Compass was made aware of the flow up and flow down potential. Any attempt to unilaterally change the process now will, I hope, be met with crushing resistance from DALPA.

That said, with a LOA preventing backfilling of outsourced flying, I want nothing more than to bring each and every Compass airframe and each and every Compass pilot onto the Delta seniority list. Above all, I find it very unfair that I have to wear the double breasted monstrosity and they don't!

Back on point... Surely you're not suggesting that the Compass pilots are getting the short end of the stick in the event of a potential furlough, are you? After all, as I said before, each and every one of them knew the score and decided to take the chance based on the promise of a guaranteed flow up to NWA (now DAL...the flow up is still intact) at some point. Simply put, if Delta furloughs, the Compass pilots have no leg to stand on if they decide to "take their ball and go home." That was never part of the deal.

99% of Compass pilots understand that. Why don't you? Come to think of it, why does this even concern you?

 

[profit]

My information comes directly from the source...dat der intrawebz.



You guys also didn't want a %100 bi-lateral flow. The ONLY reason you guys signed on to what little flow that XJ has, is because the hammer was coming down: "give us a flow down, or no shiny new jets". Same story as before...you want all the goodies, but none of the risk.



Nope. None were presented. The resolutions that WERE presented were enthusiastically endorsed as one step in the process.

And from the way it sounds, you're a bitter old dude.

Sorry if the truth hurts, but if you guys want in the game, then pony up the seats. The day that XJ offers up a %100 bi-lateral flow, I'll be the first to cheer for some kind of staple for you guys. Heck, I'll even let you guys keep %10 of your seats for the "Eagle Rights" types.

In the meantime, you have very few seats at risk, which is just what you wanted.

Your "contributions" up to this point entitles you to very little other than a polite phone call.

Nu

Wow. You are mostly full of $h1t. Now I know to ignore your posts. I think Tom Wychor and/or Mark Nagel would be happy to offer the real story to anyone who wanted the truth.

Nobody at XJ was begging for "shiny new jets" aside from management.

Maybe you should stop posting falsehoods.

I'm not that old, and not really bitter.

I have to say, I wish Occam's Razor would come back. He is a mainline guy who I respect. You? Not so much.

To all reading this thread. I recommend you each get the facts on this if youre interested. Not Nu's fiction.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I am sure that Occam is here. He is just not posting for obvious reasons.

 

[Fly4hire]

I have to say, I wish Occam's Razor would come back. He is a mainline guy who I respect. You? Not so much.

To all reading this thread. I recommend you each get the facts on this if youre interested. Not Nu's fiction.

Occam has a lot of entertaining, well informed perspective, but it is hardly free from ulterior interests.

Regardless of the flow history outside of CPZ, I do not think XJ or any other wholly owned DCI should have any consideration for an integration unless they willingly participate in an unrestricted bilateral flow.

While CPZ may be the new kids on the block, they came there knowing the landscape and took the risk.

XJ and CMR pilots went to work for those companies without any notion of a flow through, and to attempt to "me too" on the backs of CPZ without the risk, but simply on the basis of their longevity, experience, and bleeting of ALPA unity will not fly IMO.

It's not how old, experienced, or how much ALPA longevity you have, but what chips do you bring to the table.

 

[profit]

Occam has a lot of entertaining, well informed perspective, but it is hardly free from ulterior interests.

Regardless of the flow history outside of CPZ, I do not think XJ or any other wholly owned DCI should have any consideration for an integration unless they willingly participate in an unrestricted bilateral flow.

While CPZ may be the new kids on the block, they came there knowing the landscape and took the risk.

XJ and CMR pilots went to work for those companies without any notion of a flow through, and to attempt to "me too" on the backs of CPZ without the risk, but simply on the basis of their longevity, experience, and bleeting of ALPA unit will not fly IMO.

It's not how old, experienced, or how much ALPA longevity you have, but what chips do you bring to the table.

I generally agree with your points. But I assume many XJ, Pinnacle, and Comair pilots would be ok with bilateral flows in order to solidify brand scope. It really hasn't been offered though.



My comment referencing Occam had more to do with his facts than his opinions. Whether one agrees with him or not, he doesn't make stuff up. Some of the stuff Nu says happened never did. And publishing bull like that only serves to piss people off and divide the groups.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Flow has been tired before with both of these companies. Both saw what CPS had, it is no secret. XJ did not want that so they they could protected their seats, and OH had a chance.
I am willing to do this for all of em, EV included, but the first and most logical step is CPS.

 

[profit]

Flow has been tired before with both of these companies. Both saw what CPS had, it is no secret. XJ did not want that so they they could protected their seats, and OH had a chance.
I am willing to do this for all of em, EV included, but the first and most logical step is CPS.

I would characterize the summary as being a bit more complicated. But that's fine.

I wish you luck in the endeavor. I'm willing to bet King Richard doesn't want it at almost any cost. And consequently it may be about impossible to pull off.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Of course it is more complicated, but the players know the read story. I was just giving you a little bit of it.
I am sure other will take the time to give you the history.
Fact is that, there are reasons that CPS needs to be first. You may disagree with them and that is fine. I know most of my buddies at EV are upset they are going to have CPS guys senior to them at DAL, but that is what happens. It is what needs to be done for the greater good.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I am sure that Occam is here. He is just not posting for obvious reasons.

Wow, they sure got to him didn't they?

I have heard he changed sides on the Compass debate and would like to know his reasoning. We sometimes disagreed, but he is one of the smarter guys on the board.

 

[NuGuy]

Of course it is more complicated, but the players know the read story. I was just giving you a little bit of it.
I am sure other will take the time to give you the history.
Fact is that, there are reasons that CPS needs to be first. You may disagree with them and that is fine. I know most of my buddies at EV are upset they are going to have CPS guys senior to them at DAL, but that is what happens. It is what needs to be done for the greater good.

Heyas ACL,

Great perspective.

I have zero angst with the XJ guys. They have walked the walk many times with the NWA guys.

The previous issues with negotiating flow though are as it was explained to me, by more than one person. I assume their accounts accurate. If they are not accurate, I have no way of knowing.

Profit's account seems to be different. I have no doubt that what went on appeared different to different sides of the table.

But as you can see from the XJ MEC update that Splitbar posted that the "ALPA Unity bleating", as F4H said, by those who didn't want to ante up has already begun.

I would have liked to see an agreement to get the 175s at XJ instead of CPZ. But anything less than the the protections provided by the bilateral flow were unacceptable.

Profit's apparent "glee" that the "all of your exciting staple resolutions got smacked down pretty badly at the LECs." (without bothering to check what resolutions were even offered) tells me that he feels that his group wants equal consideration without paying an equal share of the bill. That I DO have a problem with.

As I said, if XJ wants to modify their flow to %100 bilateral, then I have no problem with them being on a equal footing as CPZ. In fact, I'd probably be willing to consider their length of service as part of the equation when they work out who winds up where PRIOR to coming over at the bottom.

Until then, they don't have a lot of chips. More than OH or EV, though....

Nu

 

[ACL65PILOT]

FIN you going tonight?? I can tell you what is going on with that later.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Heyas ACL,

Great perspective.

I have zero angst with the XJ guys. They have walked the walk many times with the NWA guys.

The previous issues with negotiating flow though are as it was explained to me, by more than once person. I assume their accounts accurate. If they are not accurate, I have no way of knowing.

Profit's account seems to be different. I have no doubt that what went on appeared different to different sides of the table.

But as you can see from the XJ MEC update that Splitbar posted that the "ALPA Unity bleating", as F4H said, by those who didn't want to ante up has already begun.

I would have liked to see an agreement to get the 175s at XJ instead of CPZ. But anything less than the the protections provided by the bilateral flow were unacceptable.

Profit's apparent "glee" that the "all of your exciting staple resolutions got smacked down pretty badly at the LECs." (without bothering to check what resolutions were even offered) tells me he feels that he feels that his group wants equal consideration without paying an equal share of the bill. That I DO have a problem with.

As I said, if XJ wants to modify their flow to %100 bilateral, then I have no problem with them being on a equal footing as CPZ. Until then, they don't have a lot of chips.

Nu

I agree 100%. That is part of the MEC's goal. I am sure that it will be talked about in the next DCI meeting. If EV, OH, XJ, and Pinnacle want to have the rights that we are fighting for, for the CPS guys then they need to sign on to the exact same flow that they have. 100% bi lateral. Do that, and you will have a seat at the table. Until then you are just porturing.