Comair to furlough 500??!!

[surplus1]

Thanks for answering my questions. Leaving your spin on the approach aside, as you have confirmed the CMR MEC did in fact refuse to help furloughed pilots and did in fact support managements position requiring that DAL pilots resign their seniority number. It's good to see that it only took the CMR pilots 3 years to change their position.

Leaving your spin on the side that isn't what I said. What is said was the CMR MEC did not chose to prove selective preference for Delta pilots over the pilot of other airlines. We in fact hired many furloughed pilots from a wide variety of ALPA carriers. Yours was the ONLY group that found itself too good to accept Comair management policy. That's your problem and you're not going to get away with trying to make it our problem.

You mentioned "Falling on your sword" to support the hiring of furloughed pilots and give them preferrential treatment.

Another attempt at spin but it won't work. What I said was this:

The CMR MEC simply did not agree to fall on its sword in an effort to change a company policy for the exclusive benefit of Delta pilots.

Note the phrase "for the exclusive benefit of Delta pilots" and don't exclude it in an effort to cloud the issue. The CMR MEC did support preferential interviews for all furloughed ALPA pilots. What it did NOT support was different and special preference for Delta pilots, that would put you ahead of other furloughed ALPA pilots. That is what you wanted, that is what your MEC Chairman tried to bribe us to give you, and that is what you did not get.

Funny how the ASA pilots didn't need to "fall on their sword." In 2004 when the CMR MEC flip flopped on preferential hiring of furloughed pilots, did they have to "fall on their sword"? I thought not, so drop the fig leaf of "falling on your sword".

ASA management unilaterally initiated the preferential employment of furloughed pilots. The ASA pilots did nothing at all to make that happen. All that they did was not object to a management policy, which was never the same as CMR management policy anyway.

Now too your question, why should an ALPA pilot group support the preferrential hiring of furloughed ALPA pilots? Well, for starters the ALPA Administrative Manual encourages it. The fact that you even have to ask the question speaks volumes.

That was not the question that I asked. Read the question again, then either answer it or forget it. Don' change the question so that you can come up with an answer that fits in to your spin program.

Tell me why DL pilots felt that they were intitled to better treatment than given to furloughed pilots from other air lines. I'll ask again: Why did you feel that you were entitled to preferential treatment compared, say, to a furloughed USAirways pilot? What made you different in your own mind? Why did Delta pilots feel they should get more from Comair than other pilots?

You won't answer the question because it embarrases you when your idea that your were more special than others is revealed.

No one on the Delta property ever treated anyone on the Comair property as special in comparison to any other pilot group. In fact you did the exact opposite. Why then did you expect us to do more for you than you ever did for us?

Look, I'm not asking you to love CMR pilots for I already know you hate our guts. That didn't result from any policy related to furloughed pilots, it existed long before and YOU know that. Tell it like it is and stop trying to put out false information and sugar cote your own position.

You offered a bribe in exchange for special treatment an we tured you down.
It's that simple.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

We were owned by the same people. We fed each other traffic. We offered you preferential hiring in '99-----and that was told to me by your ex System Chief pilot who went over to Delta Express in 99 (I gave him a jump seat down to MCO from ATL). He told me you guys turned that down. We offered you preferential hiring even before 9-11. Then the DCI pilots jumped up and down when they thought they would get DOH from the ALPA merger policy. An ASA pilot told me (I was on his CRJ jumpseat from ATL to CLE at the time) that he would eventually retire on the 738 flying left seat to Central America. He said that. I am sure the Comair people believed the same for awhile. So, to answer your question---we were (are currently) owned by the same people, and we offered you preferential hiring before 9-11. You guys didn't seem to care about that when we started furloughing, and instead wanted more 70 seaters before you would bargin. The truth hurts. Did USAir offer that to you? But you treated their furloughs "the same". Why would ASA offer our pilots help, and your airline would not? Oh yeah, there was a "policy" that couldn't be broken (until 2004). What?????


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[JI Gone OH]

No one on the Delta property ever treated anyone on the Comair property as special in comparison to any other pilot group. In fact you did the exact opposite. Why then did you expect us to do more for you than you ever did for us?

Look, I'm not asking you to love CMR pilots for I already know you hate our guts. That didn't result from any policy related to furloughed pilots, it existed long before and YOU know that. Tell it like it is and stop trying to put out false information and sugar cote your own position.

You offered a bribe in exchange for special treatment an we tured you down.
It's that simple.

And that just about sums it up. Well done, Sir.

 

[General Lee]

JI,

Are you sure about that? Your ex System chief pilot told me that DL offered you preferential hiring in 99 but you guys turned it down. Are you sure you know what you are saying? You are wrong there buddy, and so is Surplus.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

Surplus, the CMR pilots were never asked to "fall on their sword" for Delta furloughed pilots. As a matter of fact when the CMR pilots flip flopped on supporting the requirement that furloughed ALPA pilots give up their recall rights in October 2004, no such "falling on your sword" was required. That's just spin on your part. It was simply petty small mindedness on the part of the CMR pilots to kick furloughed pilots when they are down. I can understand your desire for revisionist history.

12-06-2002, 16:00 #1
snowback
Registered User
DAL MEC meets Comair MEC
From a recent DALPA Code-a phone message

Item two. At its October meeting, the (Delta) MEC passed a resolution directing the MEC Chairman to meet with the Comair MEC to pursue a reciprocal preferential hiring policy for furloughed Delta pilots at Comair and for Comair pilots at Delta. This week, MEC Chairman Capt. Will Buergey met with the Comair MEC Chairman in Cincinnati to discuss this issue further. The Comair MEC Chairman stated that his MEC administration does not support the hiring of furloughed Delta pilots at Comair. ASA management, at the ASA MEC’s request, has already hired furloughed Delta pilots, who start at the bottom of the airline’s seniority list and retain their recall rights at Delta.

12-06-2002, 16:13 #2
ACE
Registered User


It's not going to happen. Comair management and the Comair pilot group do not want the Delta pilots to come over and work with us. The only way it could happen is if Delta management says too take the Delta pilots. The Comair pilots are ready to cause chaos if we are made to do this against our will. I do not want to see any Delta pilot furloughed, but for them to come to Comair is a conflict of interest. For all you Delta pilots, you guys can call me an ass all you want for saying this, but it is fact.

 

[JI Gone OH]

JI,

Are you sure about that? Your ex System chief pilot told me that DL offered you preferential hiring in 99 but you guys turned it down. Are you sure you know what you are saying? You are wrong there buddy, and so is Surplus.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Yeah, and Grienstein said we weren't going to file for bankruptcy, either. A lot of people say a lot of things, and for some reason I thought that you would have figured that out a long, long time ago. Some of us learn at different rates than others, I guess. Someone sits on your jump seat and tells you something and all the sudden it's gospel, huh? What made it believable, his title? Even it were true (I wasn't on board the Titantic in '99, so maybe it was), the last 3 or 4 paragraphs from Surplus's post that I quoted pretty much sums up what I've seen from the day I got here in '01. Take care....

 

[JI Gone OH]

As a matter of fact when the CMR pilots flip flopped on supporting the requirement that furloughed ALPA pilots give up their recall rights in October 2004, no such "falling on your sword" was required. That's just spin on your part. It was simply petty small mindedness on the part of the CMR pilots to kick furloughed pilots when they are down. I can understand your desire for revisionist history.

Talk about spin... You're worse than a politician or a television network, my friend. I draw your attention to the use of the phrase CMR pilots in your post. You should be ashamed of your attempt to insinuate that I or any other CMR pilot played any role in the decision whether or not we brought your furloughed guys on our property; in fact as a group we encouraged it. And to suggest that I would take an opportunity to kick any of your furloughed guys when they are down, deserves a swift kick in the balls, but I have more class than that and will refrain from the 4 letter words and name calling. It was a p*ssing match between the M.E.C.'s and more importantly between Buergey and Lawson, and you KNOW it. I've been furloughed before, and can appreciate your frustration, but I resent you and others like you for comments like that and for spreading such incorrect, innaccurate, and misleading information. Shame on you!

 

[~~~^~~~]

Surplus:

The Delta MEC came to the ASA MEC on the hiring issue and I think we may have even passed a resolution supporting the measure. I remember talk about it at an LEC meeting and everyone was enthusiastic about bringing the Delta guys over, as long as they did not take our seniority. I was there.

Not that I'm critical of what the Comair MEC, and Lawson, tried to do. He tried to negotiate a mutually beneficial agreement ( which was fair in my opinion ). Buergey made it clear that he was not there to negotiate and that he would blackmale the Comair MEC if they dared not to go along with his demand. The Delta MEC made good on their threat and we are still hearing the regurgitated BS today.

I hate to hear that the Comair guys may have to furlough. But, MEC's that engage in predatory bargaining do not have a real good track record at delivering the airplanes on the property.

~~~^~~/~ ( The / is the knife stuck in our back, do you want the "Comair Pilots support ASA pilots sticker? I would like to return it. I see red every time it falls out of my flight bag. )

 

[~~~^~~~]

Then the DCI pilots jumped up and down when they thought they would get DOH from the ALPA merger policy. An ASA pilot told me (I was on his CRJ jumpseat from ATL to CLE at the time) that he would eventually retire on the 738 flying left seat to Central America.

Bye Bye--General Lee

General:

A line pilot may have told you he hoped he would win the lottery - so what. The DOH bull is a tired lie. Give it a rest.

 

[~~~^~~~]

DAL MEC meets Comair MEC
From a recent DALPA Code-a phone message

Item two. At its October meeting, the (Delta) MEC passed a resolution directing the MEC Chairman to meet with the Comair MEC to pursue a reciprocal preferential hiring policy for furloughed Delta pilots at Comair and for Comair pilots at Delta. This week, MEC Chairman Capt. Will Buergey met with the Comair MEC Chairman in Cincinnati to discuss this issue further. The Comair MEC Chairman stated that his MEC administration does not support the hiring of furloughed Delta pilots at Comair. ASA management, at the ASA MEC’s request, has already hired furloughed Delta pilots, who start at the bottom of the airline’s seniority list and retain their recall rights at Delta.

FDJ2: Thanks for looking it up.

 

[FDJ2]

Talk about spin... You're worse than a politician or a television network, my friend. I draw your attention to the use of the phrase CMR pilots in your post. Yes, the CMR pilots through their elected representatives slammed the door in the face of furloughed pilots seeking employment. You should be ashamed of your attempt to insinuate that I or any other CMR pilot played any role in the decision whether or not we brought your furloughed guys on our property; in fact as a group we encouraged it.

The shame is all yours my friend, and no, as a group you did not encourage the hiring of furloughed ALPA pilots, on the contrary, your pilot group supported a policy that denied employment opportunities to furloughed ALPA pilots unless they resigned their recall rights.

And to suggest that I would take an opportunity to kick any of your furloughed guys when they are down, deserves a swift kick in the balls, but I have more class than that and will refrain from the 4 letter words and name calling.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and conclude that you are completely ignorant of the goings on at the CMR MEC when they slammed the door in the face of furloughed pilots.

It was a p*ssing match between the M.E.C.'s and more importantly between Buergey and Lawson, and you KNOW it.

Oh really, and what was the result of the personal pissing match between these two gentlemen? Did Lawson encourage the hiring of furloughed ALPA pilots, or support a policy that would deny furloughed ALPA pilots employment? Do you know when the CMR MEC flip flopped on requiring that furloughed ALPA pilots resign their seniority and recall rights?

I've been furloughed before, and can appreciate your frustration, but I resent you and others like you for comments like that and for spreading such incorrect, innaccurate, and misleading information. Shame on you!

You need to get your facts straight. It was the actions of your pilot group that were shameful, casting dispersions on me does not change the fact that your MEC slammed the door in the face of furloughed pilots. Your outrage should be directed at your MEC.

 

[737 Pylt]

You're leaving out the part where Malone tells the Comair MEC what the Comair MEC's policy will be, or else they'll use misleading publicity to create the illusion Comair pilots want Delta pilots to furlough. The Comair MEC told them to take their threats elsewhere under the assumption that pilots, as a whole, were intelligent enough to find the truth. I guess it takes Delta pilots a little longer than most.

YGTBSM!
Do you even proof read what you write. Who was the DAL MEC chairman at the time of the cmr strike?? Malone?? No it was NYC Cpt. Bill Bergey!
If you're that desparate to stir the pot with the DAL pilots, at least print something believable! You need to get a life!
737

 

[737 Pylt]

Why did the DMEC chairman offer a bribe of preferential treatment, that he had no power to deliver, in exchange for preferential treatment to which he was not entitled? How come Malone got what he asked for in 2004 without any offer of bribes on either side, and Buergey got nothing with is bribe attempt, when both of them asked for the very same thing?

Do you really believe all this crap you type or are you that desparate in your hatred for mainline pilots that you are willing to make up anything??

You're entitled to your prejudices. Just keep your facts straight in the process.

Right back at ya!

737

 

[General Lee]

Yeah, and Grienstein said we weren't going to file for bankruptcy, either. A lot of people say a lot of things, and for some reason I thought that you would have figured that out a long, long time ago. Some of us learn at different rates than others, I guess. Someone sits on your jump seat and tells you something and all the sudden it's gospel, huh? What made it believable, his title? Even it were true (I wasn't on board the Titantic in '99, so maybe it was), the last 3 or 4 paragraphs from Surplus's post that I quoted pretty much sums up what I've seen from the day I got here in '01. Take care....

Dude, this was YOUR CHIEF PILOT. He left in 99 to fly at Delta Express in MCO on the 737. I talked to him when he was on my 757 jumpseat. Ask any of your old timers (probably Surplus1) if they knew him. He said we offered you preferential hiring, and your guys turned it DOWN. Then we get hit with 9-11, and you guys shaft us. Thanks.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[JI Gone OH]

For all of you follow this debacle, my post [#107] that FDJ2 attempted to quote did not contain the following words: Yes, the CMR pilots through their elected representatives slammed the door in the face of furloughed pilots seeking employment. Not sure how you were able to insert that in there, but those aren't my words, and the evidence is right above. FDJ2, you'de make a lousy reporter...

 

[JI Gone OH]

You need to get your facts straight. It was the actions of your pilot group that were shameful, casting dispersions on me does not change the fact that your MEC slammed the door in the face of furloughed pilots. Your outrage should be directed at your MEC.

Perhaps you could justify that the MEC slammed the door, but certainly not the pilot group. And don't say that because we elected them we did, because that's a lame argument. That's like saying if I voted for Bush, it's my fault we're in this war in Iraq. You, sir, need to get your facts straight. No one ever approached me, or any other line pilot here at CMR, and asked us what we wanted to do about the Delta furloughes. That, my friend, is a fact!

 

[FN FAL]

Wasn't there some kind of event in between the Comair strike and the CHQ contract? An event that changed this industry forever?

Yes, it changed the industry forever, but not in a relevance to this thread.

I wish I could cite the article, but just after the big downturn, I found several news articles that pointed out the fact that two years before 9/11 that there was an overcapcity in the system with the advent of regional jets.

Chronologically, this would fit with something that occured on one of my 135 trips. One of my customers, who owns Waukesha Tool and Die, was sitting in next to me in the Seneca on a trip and he puts his paper down and tells me that the economy is going to take a turn for the worst because the leading economic indicator is orders for tool and die. Not too long after that, I left for a regional and not long after that didn't pan out, I was sitting in Caravan listening to the ADF and hearing that the President was being advised about the first and second planes striking the towers.

9/11 might have had some impact on the airlines, but overcapacity was built in and speculated on long before September 11th, 2001.

 

[Plug]

Some people see this as holier than thou, most see it as the Comair pilots asking the pilot groups who made promises during Comair's strike to live up to their end of the bargain. I've yet to see one live up.

Um, I hate to break it to you but no promises were made. Pattern bargaining is what you are referring to. We started negotiating over a year after you signed your contract and 9/11, the pattern changed after carriers started taking concessions you being the most recent.

You're leaving out the part where Malone tells the Comair MEC what the Comair MEC's policy will be, or else they'll use misleading publicity to create the illusion Comair pilots want Delta pilots to furlough. The Comair MEC told them to take their threats elsewhere under the assumption that pilots, as a whole, were intelligent enough to find the truth. I guess it takes Delta pilots a little longer than most.

Malone wasn't there. Buergey (sp?) was and politics is part of being an MEC chair and spin comes with politics. I sincerely doubt that Buergey told JC that he would blackmail CMR, there are ethics in this union. Let me guess, a friend of a friend whose cousin's brother's sister in law had heard down at the 31 flavors told you about this blackmail plan. That is spin!

Not exactly. Delta had 50-seaters they owned that they were going to use to increase the value of one of the wholly-owns. ASA and Comair were bidding against one another, and the ASA pilots were cheaper. How long do you have to go through contract negotiations before it becomes a concession itself?

We have been in negotiations just over 3 years now. How long were you in negotiations before going on strike? Nice try sport! Oh yeah, we are negotiating under the Bush White House and you had the Clinton White House. We are post 9/11 and you were pre 9/11. "Concessions" wasn't such a buzz word during your negotiations as they are with ours. The list goes on my friend.....

The CMR and ASA MEC's met several times to discuss the LOA, but of course the ASA MEC wasn't happy about it. What they aren't telling you is that Comair's 70-seaters were on the chopping block, and there was nothing they could have done to keep them on the property. In fact the ASA MEC couldn't guarantee they'd refuse to fly Comair's 70's if Delta transferred them. If you don't believe aircraft can be transferred that quickly, look at how quickly ASA jets were transferred to Comair when the Independence jets showed up. Regardless, Skywest was in the market for 70-seat flying, and had the cash.
Freezing pay, at the highest pay scale in the industry (second to horizon) was a simple choice to prevent around 300 furloughs. Granted, the furloughs are coming now, but for different aircraft, so the effects would have been cummulative. Comair prevented 300 furloughs, or if you prefer, mitigated the current furloughs from 700 to 400. One thing you can't fault Comair for is protecting their young.

To correct you, the CMR MEC only consulted the ASA MEC after the LOA was TA'd and just prior to the roadshows. The ASA MEC can not refuse to fly anything that is legally placed on our certificate, did the CMR pilots refuse to fly those ASA aircraft? Oh yeah, and there were no CMR aircraft transferred to ASA in this deal. This was all a scare tactic "transfer of 70 seaters, furlough....." and you guys/gals fell for it. Don't try to pin weakness on others.

Held the line, how? How's that contract coming? By allowing management to operate you under an ancient contract for so long is concessionary. If you signed a contract in '03, and then took concessions, you would be in the exact same place you're in now. The Comair pilots held out for you as long as they could, but they were about to lose aircraft, and frankly 300 Comair pilots are a priority over the hope that ASA will eventually negotiate a contract. The regional airlines were so dependent upon Comair holding everything up, that they don't know what to do when they can't take advantage of the cheaper contracts. The Comair pilots did more than is asked for the good of the industry, and not one pilot group followed through. You can only be the hero for so long before you become the martyr. Good for the Comair pilots for protecting themselves.

Okay, keep the gloves up, there you go with the "holier than thou" and the "we held the line" crap again. How many CMR pilots have held informational picketing for us? How many airlines had signed concessionary deals during your negotiations? How many RFP's were floated out there during your negotiations? I ask again, how long did CMR negotiate prior to the strike? You guys no doubt raised the bar, too bad it was poor timing and that is not your fault. But when it came to the nut cutt'in you guys made a deal for airplanes which our MEC's had a long standing position against. Thanks for the sticker of support!

[quote-bvt1151]And you got 12 aircraft in return. In case the math doesn't work, that's a net increase of 2 aircraft for ASA. You conveniently ommitted that fact.[/quote]

Yeah and they are POS's. No external low press air hookup, no Cargo conditioned air, etc.

Largely because of ASA's cheap pilot costs relative to Comair.

Not by choice!

Largely because of ASA's cheap pilot costs relative to Comair.

Not by choice!

Comair's legs have been effectively cut out from under them. ASA never negotiated that contract the Comair pilots were counting on. You think Comair let down ASA, and while thats all in the opinion of the ASA pilots, they too have let down Comair by allowing their contract to put enormous pressure on Comair. Chautauqua has done the same, although with a new contract, and rediculous FO rates. Comair has seen flying shifted from them for years, although the sector's been growing so the flying shifted was all new flying. Now that the growth has ended, Comair will be losing aircraft. Rumor is they will be going to ASA/Skywest. There is no reason for this other than Comair has more expensive labor contracts. Will you refuse to fly aircraft that are causing 400 furloughs at a fellow ALPA carrier? I'd like to say its time for you to step up, but that time has been over the last three years when you were expected to step up and negotiate a contract, and you failed to do that. The Comair pilots realize they cannot rely on any other pilot group to live up to their promises, so they did what they could (at a very minimal cost by the way) to protect themselves last February. In 2001 Comair stood up in solidarity, and while everybody promised, nobody followed. Now they find themselves all alone on the chopping block, and not only have other carriers shrinked away from their promises to do their part, they're gladly taking aircraft from the carrier they promised to follow. Betrayal at its purest.

You keep throwing this "you guys failed us" crap. We didn't fail you, we supported your contract. We didn't undercut you, times changed and you are feeling the affects. For you to say that the ASA pilots betrayed you is insult at its purest. This is where you guys are self-rightous, you think your $hit don't stink and everyone else is below you. When times got tough you folded and say it is because of everyone below you. We have been trying in our negotiations but I guess you just didn't have the patience, thanks for the sticker sport!

The reason Comair is getting hosed is directly related to other carriers. If they would have followed through with the progressively improving contracts they promised, Comair would not be furloughing. Instead, they've settled for far less to secure growth and that quick upgrade. Some haven't even settled yet, but you will. Comair stepped into the fight with everyone saying "we'll be right behind you," and they never came. Now Comair finds itself in the open with none of the promised help, and the enemies are closing in fast. You never retreated, but you never moved forward either. ASA stayed in that comfortable safety area of "old contract" and then blamed Comair for not being able to hold the line all by themselves.

Once again, self-rightousness at its finest, keep crying in your beer and blaming others!

The most sacred thing to Comair pilots, is job security for its pilots. Don't be suprised when CMR shows some anger to ASA/CHQ/MESA for leaving their flank unguarded.

Ah yes, the hallowed threat from Nepolean. You may not want to threaten Mesa too much as you will probably be employed there in the not too distant future.

Cheers

 

[~~~^~~~]

Deleted -

 

[cmrflyer]

Plug, you are a sad and angry little man. Enjoy SkyWest, for as long as that lasts. Stop being such a bitter sh!t, you are now working for the people who put us all in this sinking ship known as the regionals. Hold your head up high, don't forget as you put it "times change".