Colgan - Teamsters NMB Vote

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Look, my comments about ALPA stem from the fact that there is a very obvious disconnect between large carriers and small. Large carriers WILL drive the agenda at ALPA. It will take the wills of many smaller carriers to go ahead and WORK together towards common goals to make them heard. But until you get Chip and Skyler out of the mindset that their job at XYZ Regional airlines is just a "tour of duty" you won't be able to achieve a "minimum" type of contract that should be in place at every regional airline...meaning that certain work rules and certain pay should be a "minimum"...not THE minimum.

Well that is the trick isn't it....

Do you think the citizens of AK care about the citizens of FL? They are both Americans yet have very different values.

How do you get people from one group with one set of values to understand and agree with another who happen to have same commonality?

Who's responsibility is that?

Would you have liked pilots at UAL, DAL and NWA to stand up and say to DW and ALPA National that the APA/AMR merger would not screw the TWA ALPA guys?

We really aren't going to be effective until the major airline pilot steps up and says "No. That is not how it is going to happen because that screws the regional guys"

Are you electing pilots to ALPA positions that are willing to do that?

1. In the TWA pilots' situation it wasn't a matter of participation. 2. It was a matter of getting National ALPA to act in the interest of the pilots they represented...not the one's that they desired to represent.

stlflyguy

I've numbered your sentences for the purpose of discussion...

Sentence 1 clearly contradicts sentence 2. The problem is you don't seem to understand it...

It is all about the how...

How are you going to get ALPA Nat'l to act in the interest of the pilots.

It seems you didn't even read my post entirely...

For if you were to agree with me, then you'd be admitting a failure on your part... A failure to be a responsible, engaged and participatory member.

If you charge a contractor to build your house... do you monitor the progress or do you just show up when the house is finished and built, expecting the house to be exactly the way you like it, with no corners cut. Sure you are paying the contractor to build your house, but doesn't he want to save himself money... you get the idea...

Same deal.... fact is... the TWA guys, just like 90% of ALPA members and just like most Americans let their elected officials alone and expect the results they wanted, without communication, input and direction....


So now you got your lawsuit....


So I'll ask again... in hindsight, would you rather have monitored the TWA MEC and ALPA Nat'l ensuring they looked out for your interests? Or do you prefer the way things are going including the lawsuit method?

 

[stlflyguy]

Do you think the citizens of AK care about the citizens of FL? They are both Americans yet have very different values.

How do you get people from one group with one set of values to understand and agree with another who happen to have same commonality?

AK v. FL. I suppose that if some foreign entity attacked FL (God forbid) it would only be a state issue by your example. No, it's a Federal issue...one in which the Union, in this case NATIONAL should take care of.

How do you get people from one group with one set of values to understand and agree with another who happen to have same commonality?

Who's responsibility is that?

You state it quite easily: it takes the party in common with the others to motivate those people. Answer: NATIONAL.

Would you have liked pilots at UAL, DAL and NWA to stand up and say to DW and ALPA National that the APA/AMR merger would not screw the TWA ALPA guys?

Absolutely! Now...tell me who the common denominator in those airlines are! NATIONAL. Instead, Duane was driven to forge his own legacy of "bringing them all back under the fold." Continental...FedEx...Ameri...oops, have to wait on that one.

Are you electing pilots to ALPA positions that are willing to do that?

I'm not electing anyone Rez, I've been out on the street for some time now...

But let me ask, assuming I could vote: I'm supposed to elect people that will do these things. And then they don't do these things that I want them to do. I only get to elect a few people at my line pilot level. What's my vote mean beyond those people? Besides, even if the person I get to vote in is trumped by the agenda of the others, who's ultimately responsible? Me and my fellow line pilots or the other people WHO ARE IN CHARGE OF THE NATIONAL UNION?

So I'll ask again... in hindsight, would you rather have monitored the TWA MEC and ALPA Nat'l ensuring they looked out for your interests? Or do you prefer the way things are going including the lawsuit method?

I can monitor the MEC only so much. When the MEC is being led down a path constructed by ALPA, undermining my MEC's attempts to represent its' pilots, I end up going with the lawsuit method.

stlflyguy

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Cherry picking my post? Replying to the easy parts?


So even in America, the land of individual rights, you are really just a victim?

So in other countries you'd have it better....

It really comes down to National... just not doing what you want them to do for you, the victim...


So what is the point? If you aren't willing to do for you, why do you expect others to do for you... that what you won't do?

You don't believe you should particpate, communicate and engage, but yet somehow, someway, NATIONAL is suppose to know what you want....

 

[stlflyguy]

No Rez, National has a duty--a duty to fairly represent.

stlflyguy

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

No Rez, National has a duty--a duty to fairly represent.

stlflyguy

who? You? What about the other 58,999 guys....

C'mon man, this is basic stuff here.... you know, high school civics...

How is Congress and POTUS supposed to represent the other 299,999,999 other citizens....

So we just vote (well about 1/3 of us anyway) and shut of the communication and elected reps are supposed to know....

 

[stlflyguy]

Enough Rez. My last post to you in this thread.

 

[DoinTime]

Look, my comments about ALPA stem from the fact that there is a very obvious disconnect between large carriers and small.

What disconnect is that? Striving for better pay and working conditions? Pushing for enhanced air Safety? Establishing a position of influence on a governmental level? Coordination with pilot unions all over the world? Providing centralized, top shelf services for all MECs to utilize? Anchoring a repository of professional knowledge, corporate memory and experience in a legal department for the use of all pilots? Furnish medical services to all pilots to protect their careers in case of an unfortunate medical problem?

These are the objectives of the national structure of ALPA. These should be common goals for all pilots. Perhaps you can outline your version of a disconnect if you are not in agreement with this.

Large carriers WILL drive the agenda at ALPA.

What agenda? The pilot agenda? Small carriers now make up over 1/3 the of the voting block at ALPA. Major changes at ALPA cannot be had without buy in from small carriers. The 401K dues assessment rejection this past summer was a good indicator of the changing tide within the ALPA board of directors.

It will take the wills of many smaller carriers to go ahead and WORK together towards common goals to make them heard.

I agree. Only through cross carrier coordinated action and leadership will anything that ever amounts to anything ever be accomplished. Great work is already underway with the fee for departure group and the coordinated efforts between ALPA "new DCI" carriers and the "new DAL" MEC. Long time industry observers have hailed these efforts the most promising and progressive action to come out of ALPA in decades.

If any of this work is to succeed though it has to have buy in from the line pilots. At some point in history it became "fashionable" for pilots to loath and mistrust their Union. While I understand that various MECs and National itself have made some missteps in the past we cannot expect to get anywhere if we can't pull our house back in order and go back and get what we have lost.

 

[stlflyguy]

Scope is probably the biggest example. ABC's scope clause immediately impacts XYZ regional's operations.

Striving for better pay and working conditions? Pushing for enhanced air Safety? Establishing a position of influence on a governmental level? Coordination with pilot unions all over the world? Providing centralized, top shelf services for all MECs to utilize? Anchoring a repository of professional knowledge, corporate memory and experience in a legal department for the use of all pilots? Furnish medical services to all pilots to protect their careers in case of an unfortunate medical problem?

There are many great things that the Union provides, no doubt. I don't necessarily agree that all of them are what you say they are ("top shelf"), but many of them are good.

If ALPA advertised an agenda that "we're going to recruit another 10,000 members no matter what the cost" would you agree to it?

stlflyguy

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Enough Rez. My last post to you in this thread.

You want results but you have no idea HOW those results should come about....

 

[Jamis81]

Teamsters Really??

Any Colgan pilot that votes for Teamsters needs to have his head examined.

I agree with you there.. I know some former Teamsters in the airlines, who wanted to strike and were told they could not.. Teamsters wouldn't support them to strike...

And honestly, if you think Teamsters will be better, just talk to a Chautauqa Pilot, I have talked to quite a few there that aren't happy with Teamsters either.

 

[CopilotDoug]

If you charge a contractor to build your house... do you monitor the progress or do you just show up when the house is finished and built, expecting the house to be exactly the way you like it, with no corners cut. Sure you are paying the contractor to build your house, but doesn't he want to save himself money... you get the idea...

Monitoring? Sure. But what do you do when the contractor says "Tell me how to pour the foundation?"

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Monitoring? Sure. But what do you do when the contractor says "Tell me how to pour the foundation?"

How? Sure...

what do you do when the contractor says "even though you are paying for the work, you can't inspect my job site. You can look at your house at closing..."

What then?

 

[CopilotDoug]

How? Sure...

what do you do when the contractor says "even though you are paying for the work, you can't inspect my job site. You can look at your house at closing..."

What then?

Easy...by booting ALPA.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Easy...by booting ALPA.

What then?

No representation or new representation?

 

[DoinTime]

Scope is probably the biggest example. ABC's scope clause immediately impacts XYZ regional's operations.

I agree that one facet of mainline scope (like requiring an independent certificate for a regional contractor to do business with them) has been been exploited by the managements to the detriment of regional pilots. Other than that (and jets for jobs) mainline scope is pretty righteous. Would you suggest that mainline managements be allowed to outsource any flying they wanted to outsource?

Scope is the single most important piece of any Union contract. Midwest pilots had very little protection from outsourcing. Look at whats happening to them. Unfortunately, many regional pilots (aka: contractors) refuse to accept the drawbacks of working for a regional carrier. Instead of focusing their energies on putting themselves in a position where they are not at the whims of the people they contract with they point their fingers at those who are only protecting their own jobs.

Regional pilots b*tching about mainline scope is pretty sad actually. It really goes to prove that pilots are generally clueless about the business environment they operate in as well Unionism.

There are many great things that the Union provides, no doubt. I don't necessarily agree that all of them are what you say they are ("top shelf"), but many of them are good.

My definition of "top shelf" is if you can't find any better then what you have is the best. Hands down, ALPA E&FA and Aeromedical are best in the industry. I'm not saying they are a panacea but you can't get services that are any better.

If ALPA advertised an agenda that "we're going to recruit another 10,000 members no matter what the cost" would you agree to it?

You can never agree to anything thats prefaced with "no matter what the cost." What does that mean? $10 million? $10 billion?

In a career such as ours that so heavily dependent on political fluxes a true national union is vitally important to carry the pilot agenda to capital hill. Maintaing a position as the "national" pilots Union requires recruiting, recruiting costs money. Currently, ALPA is the go to union when congress wants a pilots opinion on air safety, foreign ownership, or aviation security. Imagine how much more clout ALPA would have if they represented nearly all of the nations professional pilots?

In recent political history ALPA has carried programs such as CASS, CrewPass, and FFDO through Congress from inception to execution. If you have ever ridden in an offline cockpit post 9/11, thank ALPA. If you enjoy the right to protect your aircraft with deadly force, thank ALPA. If you envision a world where former fast food cooks won't be rummaging through your underwear prior to you going to work, thank ALPA. What have independent Unions or the teamsters ever done for our profession?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Pilots did it to themselves. There's a prevalent mindset that Regionals are not real careers. "Pay your dues" for 2 or 3 years and jump ship for the "majors." You're not going to be there very long, so why worry about contributing? Just put your time in and get out.

On a side note, what kind of attitude do you think this back-pack wearing moron takes to the "Majors"?

In the meantime, the contracts at the regionals get weaker to the detriment of ALL carriers.

Why will Compass or Mesaba turn away a 5,000hr applicant and welcome the 500hr newbie? Because the 5,000hr applicant has been around the block a few times and the shine has worn off the job. He expects to get compensated for his efforts and will probably muddy the waters for it. If not compensated as he feels appropriate, he'll waste the company's money and leave for better employment. The new guy? Well...he's just happy to fly a regional JET...

It comes down to education. Alot of new pilots today (And over the past few years) don't know much about the history of the industry. They just got swept up with those late 90's United pay scales in flight school advertisements. They're all too happy to shell out some money to GIA. Many have no true appreciation for what the proceeding generation of pilots fought for. Many think that $175 Buddy Passes are fantastic benefits not knowing or having ever heard about ID/90s. And then these pilots run for an ALPA position. Consequently, Management will be able to beat them into submission while telling them they've never had it so good. ALPA can only be as strong as it's weakest link, and there are many weak links. Just an observation.

There's that d@mn logic again....That won't be tolerated...pick up your ALPA pom-poms and wish for better pay.....:beer:

 

[JoeMerchant]

If you think its such a phenomenal post then how can you stand behind you previous comments. ALPA is only as strong as it weakest pilots. Weak pilots are those that refuse to put down their personal agendas, conspiracies, or biases for the betterment of the group.[/quote]

That's the majority of pilots.....sorry but that's the truth....

 

[JoeMerchant]

I agree. Only through cross carrier coordinated action and leadership will anything that ever amounts to anything ever be accomplished. Great work is already underway with the fee for departure group and the coordinated efforts between ALPA "new DCI" carriers and the "new DAL" MEC. Long time industry observers have hailed these efforts the most promising and progressive action to come out of ALPA in decades.

If any of this work is to succeed though it has to have buy in from the line pilots. At some point in history it became "fashionable" for pilots to loath and mistrust their Union. While I understand that various MECs and National itself have made some missteps in the past we cannot expect to get anywhere if we can't pull our house back in order and go back and get what we have lost.

I haven't seen any "great work" yet....Too many of us have given up on ALPA....The burden of proof of "change" is on those of you who still believe in ALPA....I will remain skeptical and challenge when necessary......

 

[CopilotDoug]

In recent political history ALPA has carried programs such as CASS, CrewPass, and FFDO through Congress from inception to execution. If you have ever ridden in an offline cockpit post 9/11, thank ALPA. If you enjoy the right to protect your aircraft with deadly force, thank ALPA. If you envision a world where former fast food cooks won't be rummaging through your underwear prior to you going to work, thank ALPA. What have independent Unions or the teamsters ever done for our profession?

CASS and CrewPass don't pay the mortgage. There's no food in the cupboard...the pipes are leaking...the foundation is crumbling...and the wiring is shot. But the Window Dressing is looking good.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I agree that one facet of mainline scope (like requiring an independent certificate for a regional contractor to do business with them) has been been exploited by the managements to the detriment of regional pilots. Other than that (and jets for jobs) mainline scope is pretty righteous. Would you suggest that mainline managements be allowed to outsource any flying they wanted to outsource?

Scope is the single most important piece of any Union contract. Midwest pilots had very little protection from outsourcing. Look at whats happening to them. Unfortunately, many regional pilots (aka: contractors) refuse to accept the drawbacks of working for a regional carrier. Instead of focusing their energies on putting themselves in a position where they are not at the whims of the people they contract with they point their fingers at those who are only protecting their own jobs.

Regional pilots b*tching about mainline scope is pretty sad actually. It really goes to prove that pilots are generally clueless about the business environment they operate in as well Unionism.

You b*itching about "regional pilots" proves that ALPA insiders like you don't really understand the problem.....

There is no doubt that mainline made a mistake by selling scope to begin with...however now you have to deal with the current reality...

The current reality is that 20-40% of regional pilots, depending on the regional, have made careers out of said regional.....ALPA has to acknowledge those pilots and address their concerns......

Telling them they should give up their good schedules, pay, and vacation to start over again isn't going to build a "team".....

At the regional level you have:

About 30% lifers, about 50% who don't care and want to go anyplace that flies "big airplanes", and about 20% ALPA cheerleaders who think ALPA is great and wonderful.....That isn't going to cut it....