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[Nevets]

Nevets....the problem is that "fixing" things at this point will cost negotiating capital from the rest of the contract....Most pilots are willing to "pay" for things like brand scope, single lists, etc....

True, and this is exactly why Mesa's current contract is lacking. They needed to use negotiating capital to scope in the alter ego. But now that its fixed they don't have to worry about an alter ego anymore. Same case here, once this is put into contracts, its something that doesn't need to be fixed anymore and no more negotiating capital needs to be spent fixing it. This is what I mean about sacrifices today for the betterment of everyone in the future. Pilots need to be able to see beyond 'what is in it for me right now' to get be able to get this done.

The highlighted words are KEY. Because it also works to managements favor. I believe the idea of a strong Union CAN work...but you need solidarity among the pilots (even if only in ONE group) to work. Right now...I don't see that and it doesn't look like many pilots are buying into it now.

The MECs of all the fee for departure carriers have come together and are in the process of tackling this problem. Right now you may not see solidarity or pilots buying into it and that is why I'm discussing here in the open.

Alot of people are disenfranchised by the government today. Seems like you gotta pay to play...if you don't have the money...get outta the way for the next person who does.

All US citizens are able to vote. But not all do. Many don't even register to vote. That is what I was talking about. There is apathy in ALPA just as there is in our democracy. But since you brought it up, ALPA has the money to "pay to play". And I'm not talking about the PAC. I'm talking about a lot of other work done on capital hill that is germane to all ALPA pilots and is done with dues money.

I'm all for stomping out pilot pushing. I am not for watching pay and benefits dwindle.

Yes, and once we can deal with the whipsawing and put that to rest, we can make major strides in pay and benefits without the fear of losing your job. This is what this whole theory is supposed to do. It alleviates the the biggest problem so that QOL can then be improved thoughout the whole industry.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Nevets-

Good postings.... problem is too many citizens and members believe that someone else should do for them what they won't do for themselves...

The keep looking externally for answers.... no single raindrop thinks it causes the flood....

Only until enough pilots take ownership of their careers and stop depending on others to solve their career expectations and realities will things get better...

 

[Nevets]

CASS and CrewPass don't pay the mortgage. There's no food in the cupboard...the pipes are leaking...the foundation is crumbling...and the wiring is shot. But the Window Dressing is looking good.

Its not just those two programs. Its also:

ASAP, FOQA, ASRS, Approach light systems, runway distance to go markers, TCAS, independent NTSB, air traffic control centers, representation at ICAO, CAST and ARCs, standard T instrument layout, weather radar, FFDO, CASS and CrewPass, fire resistant materials in cabins, airport and airway trust fund, airport safety, GPWS/TAWS, one level of safety, ETOPS, CRM, RVSM, windshear detection, color terrein contours on charts, SOIA, and runway status lights just to name a few solely in the safety area.

The point is that many of these help you pay the mortgage because many of these things help you go home after work or help you keep your certificate, medical, etc...things that you need to make a livelihood in this industry.

 

[CopilotDoug]

The MECs of all the fee for departure carriers have come together and are in the process of tackling this problem. Right now you may not see solidarity or pilots buying into it and that is why I'm discussing here in the open.



All US citizens are able to vote. But not all do. Many don't even register to vote. That is what I was talking about. There is apathy in ALPA just as there is in our democracy. But since you brought it up, ALPA has the money to "pay to play". And I'm not talking about the PAC. I'm talking about a lot of other work done on capital hill that is germane to all ALPA pilots and is done with dues money.



Yes, and once we can deal with the whipsawing and put that to rest, we can make major strides in pay and benefits without the fear of losing your job. This is what this whole theory is supposed to do. It alleviates the the biggest problem so that QOL can then be improved thoughout the whole industry.

I will say, you've made the best case for ALPA so far. We'll have to see what the future holds.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I will say, you've made the best case for ALPA so far. We'll have to see what the future holds.

Nevets makes a much better case than Rez.....but actions speak louder than words...ALPA has dug itself a hole...time will tell if they can dig their way out...

I do sense that they are finally "getting it" in Herndon....However I believe they are too late to turn back the hands of time on the whipsaw issue....

 

[PCL_128]

I do sense that they are finally "getting it" in Herndon....

ALPA has definitely changed since you were involved, Joe. You were used to an ALPA that was dominated by guys like Woerth, Beebe, and Dolan. I certainly have a lot of respect for these guys, and I think they did an admirable job in leading us through the times after 9/11, but they probably weren't suited for the kinds of changes that you would like to happen.

Now, ALPA has a much different feel to it. Prater is a completely different kind of leader than Duane. He's put people by his side like Mike Donatelli, who is about the most militant trade unionist you'll ever meet. Ray Miller is also there, never one to back down from a fight. Bill Couette is a regional pilots in a national officer's position. Definitely different than you were used to, Joe.

I'm sure you'll never get on board, but you should seriously take a look at how the ALPA landscape has changed. It certainly isn't the same as you were used to.

 

[JoeMerchant]

True, and this is exactly why Mesa's current contract is lacking. They needed to use negotiating capital to scope in the alter ego. But now that its fixed they don't have to worry about an alter ego anymore.

That is how their previous contract was negotiated....but their new TA is worse than most regional contracts and they didn't have an alter-ego Freedom this time.

 

[JoeMerchant]

ALPA has definitely changed since you were involved, Joe. You were used to an ALPA that was dominated by guys like Woerth, Beebe, and Dolan. I certainly have a lot of respect for these guys, and I think they did an admirable job in leading us through the times after 9/11, but they probably weren't suited for the kinds of changes that you would like to happen.

Now, ALPA has a much different feel to it. Prater is a completely different kind of leader than Duane. He's put people by his side like Mike Donatelli, who is about the most militant trade unionist you'll ever meet. Ray Miller is also there, never one to back down from a fight. Bill Couette is a regional pilots in a national officer's position. Definitely different than you were used to, Joe.

I'm sure you'll never get on board, but you should seriously take a look at how the ALPA landscape has changed. It certainly isn't the same as you were used to.

Fool me once...shame on you....fool me twice...shame on me....I was a huge ALPA cheerleader at one point....I won't make that mistake ever again....

I don't think things will change....but I do think they have finally realized what the problem is....Too many separate interests at this point...

Too many people have been disappointed by ALPA...and you never get a second chance to make a first impression.....

 

[DoinTime]

...Too many separate interests at this point...

You are in direct control of one of these dissenting interests. Will you do whats right for our profession?

 

[CopilotDoug]

Nevets makes a much better case than Rez.....but actions speak louder than words

I agree...his posts are informational in nature...not offensive, arrogant, or condescending. It's all about effective communication.

That being said, I do agree: The ALPA supporters here have built up some expectations. The talk has been talked. Will the walk be walked?

 

[Nevets]

That is how their previous contract was negotiated....but their new TA is worse than most regional contracts and they didn't have an alter-ego Freedom this time.

Yeah, unfortunately, Mesa is not thee most stable company right now.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Yeah, unfortunately, Mesa is not thee most stable company right now.

...and just because you get rid of a company owned alter-ego....doens't mean you don't have to compete with everyone else....In a way we are all alter-egos of each other....That is something ALPA will have to address if they are going to turn things around.

 

[Nevets]

...and just because you get rid of a company owned alter-ego....doens't mean you don't have to compete with everyone else....In a way we are all alter-egos of each other....That is something ALPA will have to address if they are going to turn things around.

Yeah, a regional has to solve the problems that present a clear and present danger first, like alter ego airlines, before tackling this bigger issue you mention. This is exactly what the Fee for Departure Task Force is trying to do.

 

[JoeMerchant]

You are in direct control of one of these dissenting interests. Will you do whats right for our profession?

Can you be more specific? I'm not sure what you want.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Yeah, a regional has to solve the problems that present a clear and present danger first, like alter ego airlines, before tackling this bigger issue you mention. This is exactly what the Fee for Departure Task Force is trying to do.

The Freedom alter-ego was a direct result of USAirs scope language....Mainline scope has made the whipsaw even worse....4 low cost regionals were created as direct results of mainline scope.

1. Freedom
2. GoJet
3. MidAtlantic
4. Compass

All four had below industry rates and workrules...and started longevity over at year 1.....

Has ALPA learned from these mistakes? Does ALPA consider these mistakes?

 

[Nevets]

The Freedom alter-ego was a direct result of USAirs scope language....Mainline scope has made the whipsaw even worse....4 low cost regionals were created as direct results of mainline scope.

1. Freedom
2. GoJet
3. MidAtlantic
4. Compass

All four had below industry rates and workrules...and started longevity over at year 1.....

Has ALPA learned from these mistakes? Does ALPA consider these mistakes?

Yes, In my opinion they have learned, from the leadership at least. There is more coordination between fee for departure carriers and their mainline partners when it comes to scope negotiations. Something that virtually never happened before. This whole issue we are talking about as being worked on by ALPA in collaboration with many different entities within it, not the least of which are the CBC and the FFD Task Force.