Colgan - Teamsters NMB Vote

[CopilotDoug]

If you charge a contractor to build your house... do you monitor the progress or do you just show up when the house is finished and built, expecting the house to be exactly the way you like it, with no corners cut. Sure you are paying the contractor to build your house, but doesn't he want to save himself money... you get the idea...

Monitoring? Sure. But what do you do when the contractor says "Tell me how to pour the foundation?"

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Monitoring? Sure. But what do you do when the contractor says "Tell me how to pour the foundation?"

How? Sure...

what do you do when the contractor says "even though you are paying for the work, you can't inspect my job site. You can look at your house at closing..."

What then?

 

[CopilotDoug]

How? Sure...

what do you do when the contractor says "even though you are paying for the work, you can't inspect my job site. You can look at your house at closing..."

What then?

Easy...by booting ALPA.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Easy...by booting ALPA.

What then?

No representation or new representation?

 

[DoinTime]

Scope is probably the biggest example. ABC's scope clause immediately impacts XYZ regional's operations.

I agree that one facet of mainline scope (like requiring an independent certificate for a regional contractor to do business with them) has been been exploited by the managements to the detriment of regional pilots. Other than that (and jets for jobs) mainline scope is pretty righteous. Would you suggest that mainline managements be allowed to outsource any flying they wanted to outsource?

Scope is the single most important piece of any Union contract. Midwest pilots had very little protection from outsourcing. Look at whats happening to them. Unfortunately, many regional pilots (aka: contractors) refuse to accept the drawbacks of working for a regional carrier. Instead of focusing their energies on putting themselves in a position where they are not at the whims of the people they contract with they point their fingers at those who are only protecting their own jobs.

Regional pilots b*tching about mainline scope is pretty sad actually. It really goes to prove that pilots are generally clueless about the business environment they operate in as well Unionism.

There are many great things that the Union provides, no doubt. I don't necessarily agree that all of them are what you say they are ("top shelf"), but many of them are good.

My definition of "top shelf" is if you can't find any better then what you have is the best. Hands down, ALPA E&FA and Aeromedical are best in the industry. I'm not saying they are a panacea but you can't get services that are any better.

If ALPA advertised an agenda that "we're going to recruit another 10,000 members no matter what the cost" would you agree to it?

You can never agree to anything thats prefaced with "no matter what the cost." What does that mean? $10 million? $10 billion?

In a career such as ours that so heavily dependent on political fluxes a true national union is vitally important to carry the pilot agenda to capital hill. Maintaing a position as the "national" pilots Union requires recruiting, recruiting costs money. Currently, ALPA is the go to union when congress wants a pilots opinion on air safety, foreign ownership, or aviation security. Imagine how much more clout ALPA would have if they represented nearly all of the nations professional pilots?

In recent political history ALPA has carried programs such as CASS, CrewPass, and FFDO through Congress from inception to execution. If you have ever ridden in an offline cockpit post 9/11, thank ALPA. If you enjoy the right to protect your aircraft with deadly force, thank ALPA. If you envision a world where former fast food cooks won't be rummaging through your underwear prior to you going to work, thank ALPA. What have independent Unions or the teamsters ever done for our profession?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Pilots did it to themselves. There's a prevalent mindset that Regionals are not real careers. "Pay your dues" for 2 or 3 years and jump ship for the "majors." You're not going to be there very long, so why worry about contributing? Just put your time in and get out.

On a side note, what kind of attitude do you think this back-pack wearing moron takes to the "Majors"?

In the meantime, the contracts at the regionals get weaker to the detriment of ALL carriers.

Why will Compass or Mesaba turn away a 5,000hr applicant and welcome the 500hr newbie? Because the 5,000hr applicant has been around the block a few times and the shine has worn off the job. He expects to get compensated for his efforts and will probably muddy the waters for it. If not compensated as he feels appropriate, he'll waste the company's money and leave for better employment. The new guy? Well...he's just happy to fly a regional JET...

It comes down to education. Alot of new pilots today (And over the past few years) don't know much about the history of the industry. They just got swept up with those late 90's United pay scales in flight school advertisements. They're all too happy to shell out some money to GIA. Many have no true appreciation for what the proceeding generation of pilots fought for. Many think that $175 Buddy Passes are fantastic benefits not knowing or having ever heard about ID/90s. And then these pilots run for an ALPA position. Consequently, Management will be able to beat them into submission while telling them they've never had it so good. ALPA can only be as strong as it's weakest link, and there are many weak links. Just an observation.

There's that d@mn logic again....That won't be tolerated...pick up your ALPA pom-poms and wish for better pay.....:beer:

 

[JoeMerchant]

If you think its such a phenomenal post then how can you stand behind you previous comments. ALPA is only as strong as it weakest pilots. Weak pilots are those that refuse to put down their personal agendas, conspiracies, or biases for the betterment of the group.[/quote]

That's the majority of pilots.....sorry but that's the truth....

 

[JoeMerchant]

I agree. Only through cross carrier coordinated action and leadership will anything that ever amounts to anything ever be accomplished. Great work is already underway with the fee for departure group and the coordinated efforts between ALPA "new DCI" carriers and the "new DAL" MEC. Long time industry observers have hailed these efforts the most promising and progressive action to come out of ALPA in decades.

If any of this work is to succeed though it has to have buy in from the line pilots. At some point in history it became "fashionable" for pilots to loath and mistrust their Union. While I understand that various MECs and National itself have made some missteps in the past we cannot expect to get anywhere if we can't pull our house back in order and go back and get what we have lost.

I haven't seen any "great work" yet....Too many of us have given up on ALPA....The burden of proof of "change" is on those of you who still believe in ALPA....I will remain skeptical and challenge when necessary......

 

[CopilotDoug]

In recent political history ALPA has carried programs such as CASS, CrewPass, and FFDO through Congress from inception to execution. If you have ever ridden in an offline cockpit post 9/11, thank ALPA. If you enjoy the right to protect your aircraft with deadly force, thank ALPA. If you envision a world where former fast food cooks won't be rummaging through your underwear prior to you going to work, thank ALPA. What have independent Unions or the teamsters ever done for our profession?

CASS and CrewPass don't pay the mortgage. There's no food in the cupboard...the pipes are leaking...the foundation is crumbling...and the wiring is shot. But the Window Dressing is looking good.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I agree that one facet of mainline scope (like requiring an independent certificate for a regional contractor to do business with them) has been been exploited by the managements to the detriment of regional pilots. Other than that (and jets for jobs) mainline scope is pretty righteous. Would you suggest that mainline managements be allowed to outsource any flying they wanted to outsource?

Scope is the single most important piece of any Union contract. Midwest pilots had very little protection from outsourcing. Look at whats happening to them. Unfortunately, many regional pilots (aka: contractors) refuse to accept the drawbacks of working for a regional carrier. Instead of focusing their energies on putting themselves in a position where they are not at the whims of the people they contract with they point their fingers at those who are only protecting their own jobs.

Regional pilots b*tching about mainline scope is pretty sad actually. It really goes to prove that pilots are generally clueless about the business environment they operate in as well Unionism.

You b*itching about "regional pilots" proves that ALPA insiders like you don't really understand the problem.....

There is no doubt that mainline made a mistake by selling scope to begin with...however now you have to deal with the current reality...

The current reality is that 20-40% of regional pilots, depending on the regional, have made careers out of said regional.....ALPA has to acknowledge those pilots and address their concerns......

Telling them they should give up their good schedules, pay, and vacation to start over again isn't going to build a "team".....

At the regional level you have:

About 30% lifers, about 50% who don't care and want to go anyplace that flies "big airplanes", and about 20% ALPA cheerleaders who think ALPA is great and wonderful.....That isn't going to cut it....

 

[JoeMerchant]

CASS and CrewPass don't pay the mortgage.

Hmmm....ability to bypass security or paying my mortgage....Tough question...:laugh:

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What have independent Unions or the teamsters ever done for our profession?

The APA brought us the B scale and a sick out, which along with PATCO put a nasty bile taste for labor amongst the public and gov't....

 

[JoeMerchant]

The APA brought us the B scale and a sick out, which along with PATCO put a nasty bile taste for labor amongst the public and gov't....

Rez doesn't like APA, PATCO, or Teamsters.....He has a sick obsession for ALPA....It's the only union....It's the best....

 

[DoinTime]

Telling them they should give up their good schedules, pay, and vacation to start over again isn't going to build a "team".....

Who is saying anything like that? Regional airlines can be a great place to spend a career if you can accept the inherent instability of working for a contract carrier. Considering there really isn't stability anywhere in the industry this isn't much of a trade off.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Who is saying anything like that? Regional airlines can be a great place to spend a career if you can accept the inherent instability of working for a contract carrier. Considering there really isn't stability anywhere in the industry this isn't much of a trade off.

ALPA, ALPA cheerleaders, and ALPA cheerleader like yourself are saying that.....Those of us who have made a career here have a right to want to grow the size of our carriers....that is in OUR best interest......I understand why the mainline has heartburn with that....but it doesn't alter the fact that we are on opposite ends of a tug of war game......We aren't pulling in the same direction...

IF ALPA is going to salvage itself....it is going to have to find a way for all of us to pull in the same direction.......We aren't doing it right now......

Those of us who have made lemonade out of the lemons we were dealt.....deserve to not have a union that limits our careers.....Find a way for it work for both sides or accept that we will always be divided...The choice is yours......