Colgan - Teamsters NMB Vote

[CopilotDoug]

If you charge a contractor to build your house... do you monitor the progress or do you just show up when the house is finished and built, expecting the house to be exactly the way you like it, with no corners cut. Sure you are paying the contractor to build your house, but doesn't he want to save himself money... you get the idea...

Monitoring? Sure. But what do you do when the contractor says "Tell me how to pour the foundation?"

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Monitoring? Sure. But what do you do when the contractor says "Tell me how to pour the foundation?"

How? Sure...

what do you do when the contractor says "even though you are paying for the work, you can't inspect my job site. You can look at your house at closing..."

What then?

 

[CopilotDoug]

How? Sure...

what do you do when the contractor says "even though you are paying for the work, you can't inspect my job site. You can look at your house at closing..."

What then?

Easy...by booting ALPA.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Easy...by booting ALPA.

What then?

No representation or new representation?

 

[DoinTime]

Scope is probably the biggest example. ABC's scope clause immediately impacts XYZ regional's operations.

I agree that one facet of mainline scope (like requiring an independent certificate for a regional contractor to do business with them) has been been exploited by the managements to the detriment of regional pilots. Other than that (and jets for jobs) mainline scope is pretty righteous. Would you suggest that mainline managements be allowed to outsource any flying they wanted to outsource?

Scope is the single most important piece of any Union contract. Midwest pilots had very little protection from outsourcing. Look at whats happening to them. Unfortunately, many regional pilots (aka: contractors) refuse to accept the drawbacks of working for a regional carrier. Instead of focusing their energies on putting themselves in a position where they are not at the whims of the people they contract with they point their fingers at those who are only protecting their own jobs.

Regional pilots b*tching about mainline scope is pretty sad actually. It really goes to prove that pilots are generally clueless about the business environment they operate in as well Unionism.

There are many great things that the Union provides, no doubt. I don't necessarily agree that all of them are what you say they are ("top shelf"), but many of them are good.

My definition of "top shelf" is if you can't find any better then what you have is the best. Hands down, ALPA E&FA and Aeromedical are best in the industry. I'm not saying they are a panacea but you can't get services that are any better.

If ALPA advertised an agenda that "we're going to recruit another 10,000 members no matter what the cost" would you agree to it?

You can never agree to anything thats prefaced with "no matter what the cost." What does that mean? $10 million? $10 billion?

In a career such as ours that so heavily dependent on political fluxes a true national union is vitally important to carry the pilot agenda to capital hill. Maintaing a position as the "national" pilots Union requires recruiting, recruiting costs money. Currently, ALPA is the go to union when congress wants a pilots opinion on air safety, foreign ownership, or aviation security. Imagine how much more clout ALPA would have if they represented nearly all of the nations professional pilots?

In recent political history ALPA has carried programs such as CASS, CrewPass, and FFDO through Congress from inception to execution. If you have ever ridden in an offline cockpit post 9/11, thank ALPA. If you enjoy the right to protect your aircraft with deadly force, thank ALPA. If you envision a world where former fast food cooks won't be rummaging through your underwear prior to you going to work, thank ALPA. What have independent Unions or the teamsters ever done for our profession?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Pilots did it to themselves. There's a prevalent mindset that Regionals are not real careers. "Pay your dues" for 2 or 3 years and jump ship for the "majors." You're not going to be there very long, so why worry about contributing? Just put your time in and get out.

On a side note, what kind of attitude do you think this back-pack wearing moron takes to the "Majors"?

In the meantime, the contracts at the regionals get weaker to the detriment of ALL carriers.

Why will Compass or Mesaba turn away a 5,000hr applicant and welcome the 500hr newbie? Because the 5,000hr applicant has been around the block a few times and the shine has worn off the job. He expects to get compensated for his efforts and will probably muddy the waters for it. If not compensated as he feels appropriate, he'll waste the company's money and leave for better employment. The new guy? Well...he's just happy to fly a regional JET...

It comes down to education. Alot of new pilots today (And over the past few years) don't know much about the history of the industry. They just got swept up with those late 90's United pay scales in flight school advertisements. They're all too happy to shell out some money to GIA. Many have no true appreciation for what the proceeding generation of pilots fought for. Many think that $175 Buddy Passes are fantastic benefits not knowing or having ever heard about ID/90s. And then these pilots run for an ALPA position. Consequently, Management will be able to beat them into submission while telling them they've never had it so good. ALPA can only be as strong as it's weakest link, and there are many weak links. Just an observation.

There's that d@mn logic again....That won't be tolerated...pick up your ALPA pom-poms and wish for better pay.....:beer:

 

[JoeMerchant]

If you think its such a phenomenal post then how can you stand behind you previous comments. ALPA is only as strong as it weakest pilots. Weak pilots are those that refuse to put down their personal agendas, conspiracies, or biases for the betterment of the group.[/quote]

That's the majority of pilots.....sorry but that's the truth....

 

[JoeMerchant]

I agree. Only through cross carrier coordinated action and leadership will anything that ever amounts to anything ever be accomplished. Great work is already underway with the fee for departure group and the coordinated efforts between ALPA "new DCI" carriers and the "new DAL" MEC. Long time industry observers have hailed these efforts the most promising and progressive action to come out of ALPA in decades.

If any of this work is to succeed though it has to have buy in from the line pilots. At some point in history it became "fashionable" for pilots to loath and mistrust their Union. While I understand that various MECs and National itself have made some missteps in the past we cannot expect to get anywhere if we can't pull our house back in order and go back and get what we have lost.

I haven't seen any "great work" yet....Too many of us have given up on ALPA....The burden of proof of "change" is on those of you who still believe in ALPA....I will remain skeptical and challenge when necessary......

 

[CopilotDoug]

In recent political history ALPA has carried programs such as CASS, CrewPass, and FFDO through Congress from inception to execution. If you have ever ridden in an offline cockpit post 9/11, thank ALPA. If you enjoy the right to protect your aircraft with deadly force, thank ALPA. If you envision a world where former fast food cooks won't be rummaging through your underwear prior to you going to work, thank ALPA. What have independent Unions or the teamsters ever done for our profession?

CASS and CrewPass don't pay the mortgage. There's no food in the cupboard...the pipes are leaking...the foundation is crumbling...and the wiring is shot. But the Window Dressing is looking good.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I agree that one facet of mainline scope (like requiring an independent certificate for a regional contractor to do business with them) has been been exploited by the managements to the detriment of regional pilots. Other than that (and jets for jobs) mainline scope is pretty righteous. Would you suggest that mainline managements be allowed to outsource any flying they wanted to outsource?

Scope is the single most important piece of any Union contract. Midwest pilots had very little protection from outsourcing. Look at whats happening to them. Unfortunately, many regional pilots (aka: contractors) refuse to accept the drawbacks of working for a regional carrier. Instead of focusing their energies on putting themselves in a position where they are not at the whims of the people they contract with they point their fingers at those who are only protecting their own jobs.

Regional pilots b*tching about mainline scope is pretty sad actually. It really goes to prove that pilots are generally clueless about the business environment they operate in as well Unionism.

You b*itching about "regional pilots" proves that ALPA insiders like you don't really understand the problem.....

There is no doubt that mainline made a mistake by selling scope to begin with...however now you have to deal with the current reality...

The current reality is that 20-40% of regional pilots, depending on the regional, have made careers out of said regional.....ALPA has to acknowledge those pilots and address their concerns......

Telling them they should give up their good schedules, pay, and vacation to start over again isn't going to build a "team".....

At the regional level you have:

About 30% lifers, about 50% who don't care and want to go anyplace that flies "big airplanes", and about 20% ALPA cheerleaders who think ALPA is great and wonderful.....That isn't going to cut it....

 

[JoeMerchant]

CASS and CrewPass don't pay the mortgage.

Hmmm....ability to bypass security or paying my mortgage....Tough question...:laugh:

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What have independent Unions or the teamsters ever done for our profession?

The APA brought us the B scale and a sick out, which along with PATCO put a nasty bile taste for labor amongst the public and gov't....

 

[JoeMerchant]

The APA brought us the B scale and a sick out, which along with PATCO put a nasty bile taste for labor amongst the public and gov't....

Rez doesn't like APA, PATCO, or Teamsters.....He has a sick obsession for ALPA....It's the only union....It's the best....

 

[DoinTime]

Telling them they should give up their good schedules, pay, and vacation to start over again isn't going to build a "team".....

Who is saying anything like that? Regional airlines can be a great place to spend a career if you can accept the inherent instability of working for a contract carrier. Considering there really isn't stability anywhere in the industry this isn't much of a trade off.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Who is saying anything like that? Regional airlines can be a great place to spend a career if you can accept the inherent instability of working for a contract carrier. Considering there really isn't stability anywhere in the industry this isn't much of a trade off.

ALPA, ALPA cheerleaders, and ALPA cheerleader like yourself are saying that.....Those of us who have made a career here have a right to want to grow the size of our carriers....that is in OUR best interest......I understand why the mainline has heartburn with that....but it doesn't alter the fact that we are on opposite ends of a tug of war game......We aren't pulling in the same direction...

IF ALPA is going to salvage itself....it is going to have to find a way for all of us to pull in the same direction.......We aren't doing it right now......

Those of us who have made lemonade out of the lemons we were dealt.....deserve to not have a union that limits our careers.....Find a way for it work for both sides or accept that we will always be divided...The choice is yours......

 

[DoinTime]

CASS and CrewPass don't pay the mortgage. There's no food in the cupboard...the pipes are leaking...the foundation is crumbling...and the wiring is shot. But the Window Dressing is looking good.

I'm assuming you have point somewhere in there? If you're making an attack on poor bargaining patterns over the last 7 years that haven't raised the living standards of pilots well get in line. I too am frustrated with poor passenger yields, airline bankruptcies, an administration that doesn't support labor, and $148/barrel oil. I don't see where ALPA has caused any of this misfortune.

 

[DoinTime]

ALPA, ALPA cheerleaders, and ALPA cheerleader like yourself are saying that..

Saying what? Saying that you should have a crappy schedule? Why would someone want you to have a crappy schedule?

I wish you would come out and say whats bothering you here? What is your perceived hidden agenda?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Saying what? Saying that you should have a crappy schedule? Why would someone want you to have a crappy schedule?

I wish you would come out and say whats bothering you here? What is your perceived hidden agenda?

Your point is that regional "lifers" should just accept the fact that their own union is working to limit their careers...and if they don't like it they can leave and go to "big leagues"....That proves that you don't understand the mindset of the regional "lifer".....Until you and the rest of the ALPA cheerleaders understand that....you won't have the Cumbaya moment you are looking for....

I don't have a "hidden agenda" here.....My agenda is to advance MY carrier...and grow it....I will oppose my union if it attempts to limit my carrier.....It is ALPA that has a hidden agenda....It is pretending to represent ALL of us when that is impossible under the current situation.....

 

[CopilotDoug]

I don't see where ALPA has caused any of this misfortune.

It's the manner how ALPA has handled it. Live to fight another day?

 

[CopilotDoug]

The APA brought us the B scale and a sick out

Bingo! And the Majors represented by ALPA brought us the regional jet.

 

[DoinTime]

Your point is that regional "lifers" should just accept the fact that their own union is working to limit their careers...and if they don't like it they can leave and go to "big leagues"....That proves that you don't understand the mindset of the regional "lifer".....Until you and the rest of the ALPA cheerleaders understand that....you won't have the Cumbaya moment you are looking for....

So let me get this straight...your position is that mainline pilot groups should be forced to give up the job security they bought and paid for at the bargaining table so that companies like yours and mine can grow? Thats ridiculous.

Every career path for pilots has its limitations. Regional pilots are limited to the business that their managements are successful in securing (sometimes that means that no flying is even available to bid on or that some current flying goes away). LCC pilots are usually limited narrow body flying. Cargo pilots are usually limited to flying at night. Mainline pilots are limited in terms of seniority progression. Career limitations are nothing new.

If Skywest Inc decided they wanted to consolidate their United and Delta contracts by having Skywest do the DAL service and ASA do the UAL flying....guess what Joey? Your airplane just got painted grey and now you have to commute to ORD. There isn't anything you (or your Union) can do about it but I'm sure you'll find a way to blame ALPA anyway though. The contract pilot will always be limited to the types and quantities of outsourced flying available on the market. This outsourced flying will always be subject to marketing demands and the pilots that negotiate with the mainlines willingness to give up that flying.

I don't have a "hidden agenda" here.....My agenda is to advance MY carrier...and grow it....I will oppose my union if it attempts to limit my carrier.....It is ALPA that has a hidden agenda....It is pretending to represent ALL of us when that is impossible under the current situation.....

I think just the opposite is true. It is because of the willingness of DALALPA to allow some outsourcing that your job even became available in the first place let alone it growing into the type of job where a decent living could be had. It seems that now that the outsourcing cat is out of the bag you seek to keep the flood gates open until the career expectations of the regional pilot are homogenized throughout the entire industry.

 

[DoinTime]

Bingo! And the Majors represented by ALPA brought us the regional jet.

Actually, a non-ALPA canadian mainline carrier brought us the Regional Jet.

 

[DoinTime]

It's the manner how ALPA has handled it. Live to fight another day?

Sometimes (not all the time) "living to fight another day" is sound advice.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Actually, a non-ALPA canadian mainline carrier brought us the Regional Jet.

And mainline was too good to fly those.

 

[Nevets]

Willing to forget about the past? You have pilots who have flown for their entire professional career. Many have gone back to 1st year pay MULTIPLE times. Many of these guys have meager retirements saved up partly due to WEAK contracts and countless personal sacrifices made in the name of this "profession."

And you're asking that they just brush the past away to make ANOTHER sacrifice for someone who hasn't contributed anything (300hr GLA SuperPilot) to the industry yet?

Good luck with that.

This mentality is exactly what I'm talking about. Why should I care about the 300 hour GLA SuperPilot if I can effect change on the magnitude that the 300 hour GLS SuperPilot would be irrelevant.

Like I said, pilots have to abandon the attitude that since I went through hell everyone else must also. That is what I mean by forgetting about the past. The wounds of the past should only be used to motivate people to effect change so that no one else endures those same hardships. And it may also take having to make one more hardship to make that happen. And that is why pilots need to abandon the "whats in it for me right now" attitude as well.

Of course! Because contracts are permanent and set in stone!

You guys have your heart in the right place...but your head up the wrong place.

Exactly why that language can be included on any contract. Once you have the language in place, there is nothing management can do, short of BK, to take it away if the other party is unwilling.

If there is a will, there is a way. It sounds like you are not against anything we are talking about buy just believe that it isn't possible. It is possible. This is a man made problem that can be fixed if enough of us want to fix it. This isn't like trying to defy any laws of physics.

Why aren't the pilots participating? One would think if they REALLY believed in the system, then they'd participate, right?

I can say the same thing for the US government. Why aren't the citizens participating? ONe would think if they REALLY beleived in the sytem, then they'd participate, right?

And the AUDACITY of those GA pilots wanting to benefit from all the airway/airport infrastructure ALPA helped usher in...bunch of damned free loaders!!!

I am indifferent to the Skywest pilots.

The difference is that most GA pilots are not trying to make their living more safe. Most GA pilots can elect not to fly if they feel its too dangerous where as airline pilots had to deal with pilot pushing.

But even if you did earn a living in GA, there are other organizations you could contribute to to make it better such as AOPA, EAA, NAFI, SPA, HAI, NBAA, etc.

Look, my comments about ALPA stem from the fact that there is a very obvious disconnect between large carriers and small. Large carriers WILL drive the agenda at ALPA. It will take the wills of many smaller carriers to go ahead and WORK together towards common goals to make them heard. But until you get Chip and Skyler out of the mindset that their job at XYZ Regional airlines is just a "tour of duty" you won't be able to achieve a "minimum" type of contract that should be in place at every regional airline...meaning that certain work rules and certain pay should be a "minimum"...not THE minimum.

I think that may have been a fair comment in the not so distant past. Keep in mind also that almost half of ALPA pilots are from non-major carriers. Also, keep in mind that half of the Executive Vice Presidents on the Executive Council are from non A list carriers (DAL, UAL, FDX, CAL) and that one of the national officers is a regional pilot as well.

The Fee for Departure Task Force is working on exactly what you are talking about. They are banding together to come up with minimum contract standards which will include seniority transportability. You should look into it and try to help.

But let me ask, assuming I could vote: I'm supposed to elect people that will do these things. And then they don't do these things that I want them to do. I only get to elect a few people at my line pilot level. What's my vote mean beyond those people? Besides, even if the person I get to vote in is trumped by the agenda of the others, who's ultimately responsible? Me and my fellow line pilots or the other people WHO ARE IN CHARGE OF THE NATIONAL UNION?

The only other alternatives are to not vote/participate OR to run for an elected representative position.

Scope is probably the biggest example. ABC's scope clause immediately impacts XYZ regional's operations.

I say, have all the major airline pilots scope in all regional jet flying for themselves.

 

[CopilotDoug]

This mentality is exactly what I'm talking about. Why should I care about the 300 hour GLA SuperPilot if I can effect change on the magnitude that the 300 hour GLS SuperPilot would be irrelevant.

Like I said, pilots have to abandon the attitude that since I went through hell everyone else must also. That is what I mean by forgetting about the past. The wounds of the past should only be used to motivate people to effect change so that no one else endures those same hardships. And it may also take having to make one more hardship to make that happen. And that is why pilots need to abandon the "whats in it for me right now" attitude as well.

***There was a mistake in my previous post, it meant to say 300hr GIA super pilot**

Pilots have to abandon this attitude? How about pilots have to provide for families and retirements? Like it or not, this attitude WILL NOT change. It doesn't mean I agree with it, but I can certainly appreciate this attitude when:
-Retirements are slashed
-Pilots lose their medical well before 65
-Multiple furloughs
-And concessions
It's not necessarily rooted in "I went through hell, so do they" as much as it is "What's in it for me right now, because tomorrow is promised to nobody?"

 

[Nevets]

***There was a mistake in my previous post, it meant to say 300hr GIA super pilot**

Pilots have to abandon this attitude? How about pilots have to provide for families and retirements? Like it or not, this attitude WILL NOT change. It doesn't mean I agree with it, but I can certainly appreciate this attitude when:
-Retirements are slashed
-Pilots lose their medical well before 65
-Multiple furloughs
-And concessions
It's not necessarily rooted in "I went through hell, so do they" as much as it is "What's in it for me right now, because tomorrow is promised to nobody?"

Pilots don't have to abandon providing for their families and retirement to make this profession better. They don't have to have retirements slashed, lose their medicals (more of which would without ALPA), furlough, or give concessions. Those things that happened in the past don't have to happen again just because we want to make things better now and for the future. We are talking about Longshoreman theory being introduced in the professional pilot industry and maybe making some sacrifices today for the betterment of the industry tomorrow since nothing is promised anyways.

We also have to get rid of the attitude that "its not possible."

 

[JoeMerchant]

Nevets....the problem is that "fixing" things at this point will cost negotiating capital from the rest of the contract....Most pilots are willing to "pay" for things like brand scope, single lists, etc....

 

[CopilotDoug]

Exactly why that language can be included on any contract. Once you have the language in place, there is nothing management can do, short of BK, to take it away if the other party is unwilling.

If there is a will, there is a way. It sounds like you are not against anything we are talking about buy just believe that it isn't possible. It is possible. This is a man made problem that can be fixed if enough of us want to fix it. This isn't like trying to defy any laws of physics.

The highlighted words are KEY. Because it also works to managements favor. I believe the idea of a strong Union CAN work...but you need solidarity among the pilots (even if only in ONE group) to work. Right now...I don't see that and it doesn't look like many pilots are buying into it now.

 

[CopilotDoug]

I can say the same thing for the US government. Why aren't the citizens participating? ONe would think if they REALLY beleived in the sytem, then they'd participate, right?

Alot of people are disenfranchised by the government today. Seems like you gotta pay to play...if you don't have the money...get outta the way for the next person who does.

The difference is that most GA pilots are not trying to make their living more safe. Most GA pilots can elect not to fly if they feel its too dangerous where as airline pilots had to deal with pilot pushing.

But even if you did earn a living in GA, there are other organizations you could contribute to to make it better such as AOPA, EAA, NAFI, SPA, HAI, NBAA, etc.

I'm all for stomping out pilot pushing. I am not for watching pay and benefits dwindle.