Colgan - Teamsters NMB Vote

[SKYWRJGUY]

Sweet: Vote for ALPA, they know how to use Microsoft Office.

 

[CopilotDoug]

This discussion has to continue until enough people believe it can be a reality. I feel that at least I've shown you that the theory is alive and working and that its not just pie in the sky. There are so many things that people have said in the history of mankind that something can't be done or that it will never happen. That is not good enough especially when we can see an actual real life model is working. If it can work for the Longshoreman it can work for pilots. Of course seniority is an obstacle but only because no one is willing to forget about the past and how bad you had it and everyone else has to pay their dues as well blah blah blah, and be a little open minded and forward looking, willing to make one more sacrifice to actually make it happen once and for all. Sure, it will take time and maybe its another 30 years, although I don't believe it will be that long, but its still better than just giving up because its too hard.

If you still don't feel that this can happen, then what exactly do you think needs to happen for it to become reality? This is not some kind of technological leap we are trying to make here. Its an abstract man made idea that can be changed if enough people wanted to. Now tell me, what needs to happen to get enough people to believe so that we can fix this man made issue?

Willing to forget about the past? You have pilots who have flown for their entire professional career. Many have gone back to 1st year pay MULTIPLE times. Many of these guys have meager retirements saved up partly due to WEAK contracts and countless personal sacrifices made in the name of this "profession."

And you're asking that they just brush the past away to make ANOTHER sacrifice for someone who hasn't contributed anything (300hr GLA SuperPilot) to the industry yet?

Good luck with that.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Kennedy has actually been a good friend of pilots over the years. He supports us and our issues 99% of the time. Deregulation obviously didn't work out well for us, but keep in mind that ALPA never had an official position on deregulation when it was being debated. If ALPA had adamantly opposed it, you never know what Kennedy would have done.

That 1% makes the other 99% seem quite insignificant. Here we are nearly 30 years later and it's still rolling down-hill.

This just shows how ignorant you are of the problems we have to solve. Many of our problems can only be solved with the help of politicians. You have to play the game, my friend. When laws are what hurt your leverage, then politicians are needed to fix them. All of the unity and solidarity in the world isn't going to help you if the law is stacked against you.

A GLA guy calling someone ignorant? Change your tone and avoid the pain.

Back on topic...

Let me ask you...who are the politicians amenable to? 50,000 airline pilots...OR THE WHOLE COUNTRY?

Negotiations, obviously. Make portable longevity a required item in every ALPA contract, and make it a strike issue.

Of course! Because contracts are permanent and set in stone!

You guys have your heart in the right place...but your head up the wrong place.

 

[PCL_128]

That 1% makes the other 99% seem quite insignificant. Here we are nearly 30 years later and it's still rolling down-hill.

Again, the union never took a stance on deregulation, so he wasn't against us on that issue. Stop trying to rewrite history to support your ALPA hatred.

A GLA guy calling someone ignorant?

Great Lakes Aviation? Never worked there. Sorry. As for your ignorance, it's self-evident.

Let me ask you...who are the politicians amenable to? 50,000 airline pilots...OR THE WHOLE COUNTRY?

Politicians are amenable to the special interest groups that give them money and support. For Democrats and a few Republicans, organized labor is a huge special interest group that they can't do without. ALPA is a key player in the AFL-CIO, and Democratic politicians are loathe to go against the AFL. It can make the difference in whether they hold their seat or are sent packing at the next election. Politics is all about money, not about voters. Wake up to reality.

 

[WayBack]

Great Lakes Aviation? Never worked there. Sorry. As for your ignorance, it's self-evident..

We all know he ment GIA...the place where you paid for your first job.
Since you're so tight in brotherhood and preserving the careers of fellow pilots, how do you feel that you put a fellow pilot on the street, because YOU PAID for that job?
Just face the truth. You can care less about your fellow pilot. Your actions have proved otherwise. You're all about the advancement of YOU.
You paid for your first job. You ran from a ALPA carrier to a non ALPA carrier because it was what you refered to as "Your dream job"

So don't get on your high horse and try to talk down to other pilots. You've done enough damage to your fellow pilot group. Being an ALPA Cheerleader won't fix what you have done.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Again, the union never took a stance on deregulation, so he wasn't against us on that issue. Stop trying to rewrite history to support your ALPA hatred.

That doesn't let ALPA off the hook. And who has hatred for ALPA? I don't support the idea of ALPA is all. No hatred here man.

Great Lakes Aviation? Never worked there. Sorry. As for your ignorance, it's self-evident.

Sorry...GIA. GLA guys wouldn't stab their fellow pilots in the back, and then turn around and dictate the need for fellow pilots to give and make sacrifices for the Union (Which....ironically, they don't belong to anymore)

Politicians are amenable to the special interest groups that give them money and support. For Democrats and a few Republicans, organized labor is a huge special interest group that they can't do without. ALPA is a key player in the AFL-CIO, and Democratic politicians are loathe to go against the AFL. It can make the difference in whether they hold their seat or are sent packing at the next election. Politics is all about money, not about voters. Wake up to reality.

Using your logic...who carries the wallet? A few organized labor groups, or Big Business? Open your eyes to reality.

 

[DX Rick]

Sorry...GIA. GLA guys wouldn't stab their fellow pilots in the back, and then turn around and dictate the need for fellow pilots to give and make sacrifices for the Union (Which....ironically, they don't belong to anymore)

Do as I say, not as I do.

 

[stlflyguy]

ALPA will spend millions to recruit even the smallest carriers. Not because of the dues gained, but because loss of that carrier to a rival union means there's an alternative that the rest of the ALPA membership can turn to should their opinion of ALPA sour. By having ALL airlines represented by ALPA means there are few, if any, alternatives.

stlflyguy

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

How long has this utopian idea of ALPA representing every airline group been around? No disrespect to you, Nevets, but it boils down to alot of pilots talking the talk and not walking the walk. And for a number of very good reasons ranging from seniority and pay to attrition.

It's akin to the new college grad armed with all his book knowledge...first thing he's going to do when he graduates is grab the world by the balls...in theory, it works.

How is this for talking the talk and NOT waling the walk...

ALPA pilots.....

5% meeting particaption.
33% voter particaption
14% PAC participation


But don't fret.... when it comes to Americans participating in democracy, they don't do much better...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ALPA-PAC? HA! ALPA has been paying Ted Kennedy for how many years??? What the hell has Kennedy done for the Pilots besides tossing their QOL out the window by Co-Authoring the Deregulation Act? There's part of your problem...Looking to Politicians to solve your problems.

Actually when the Port Security fiasco was being goofed by the Bush Admin and Congress was trying to put out legislation on port security the beloved GOP tried to make a labor strike akin to an act of terrorism, warranting a response by the federal gov't. (troops, police, etc...). Think about that.... a labor strike being treated as a terrorist attack...

Kennedy stopped the draft legislation....

Considering a Single Seniority or Portable longevity? And management will be obliged to sign off on that why?

they would not because tools like you and Joey keep posting on FI, dividing pilots.....

 

[CopilotDoug]

How is this for talking the talk and NOT waling the walk...

ALPA pilots.....

5% meeting particaption.
33% voter particaption
14% PAC participation


But don't fret.... when it comes to Americans participating in democracy, they don't do much better...

Why aren't the pilots participating? One would think if they REALLY believed in the system, then they'd participate, right?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Why aren't the pilots participating? One would think if they REALLY believed in the system, then they'd participate, right?

or if they didn't believe in the system they would work to make the system work...

Why anyone would sit there in apathy watching or ignoring a system that doesn't work that is tied to their very livelihood is stupid, insane, ignorant and they get exactly what they are getting....

put nothing into it... get nothing out of it....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Sweet: Vote for ALPA, they know how to use Microsoft Office.

ALPA also knows how to use allot of other things too that SKYWEST pilots benefit without contributing...

the list goes on....

 

[CopilotDoug]

Actually when the Port Security fiasco was being goofed by the Bush Admin and Congress was trying to put out legislation on port security the beloved GOP tried to make a labor strike akin to an act of terrorism, warranting a response by the federal gov't. (troops, police, etc...). Think about that.... a labor strike being treated as a terrorist attack...

Kennedy stopped the draft legislation...

Ah...Port Security! They run an airline, don't they? I'd be interested in reading about it anyway. Link?

they would not because tools like you and Joey keep posting on FI, dividing pilots.....

Who was dividing the pilots in the 80s and 90s when there was no FlightInfo?

 

[CopilotDoug]

ALPA also knows how to use allot of other things too that SKYWEST pilots benefit without contributing...

the list goes on....

And the AUDACITY of those GA pilots wanting to benefit from all the airway/airport infrastructure ALPA helped usher in...bunch of damned free loaders!!!

I am indifferent to the Skywest pilots.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ALPA will spend millions to recruit even the smallest carriers. Not because of the dues gained, but because loss of that carrier to a rival union means there's an alternative that the rest of the ALPA membership can turn to should their opinion of ALPA sour. By having ALL airlines represented by ALPA means there are few, if any, alternatives.

stlflyguy

You could be a participatory force in your union...

I can't image that the TWA guys were an anomaly when it came to participation at TWA ALPA....


Imagine if 66% or even 75% of the members were a force for the MEC to deal with...... consider if the TWA MEC was more fearful or concerned of the TWA pilots than he was DW, the APA and AMR....

"nope..." says the TWA MEC chairman... I can't do that... my pilots would hang me if I did.....

Why do what the TWA pilots want...... in fact.. what do they want? They never attend meetings, never vote, never communicate... I am just suppose to know what they what....



While it maybe be obvious what you wanted, the fact that a long standing precedent of non communication can give the elected leadership the feeling of 'carte blanc' when it comes to representation...



Look at it this way.... with hindsight 20/20, would you have rather been a much more participatory pilot group giving your MEC and ALPA National (DW) loud and clear instructions and guidance on what to do with the AMR/APA deal?

 

[Regul8r]

Pilots did it to themselves. There's a prevalent mindset that Regionals are not real careers. "Pay your dues" for 2 or 3 years and jump ship for the "majors." You're not going to be there very long, so why worry about contributing? Just put your time in and get out.

On a side note, what kind of attitude do you think this back-pack wearing moron takes to the "Majors"?

In the meantime, the contracts at the regionals get weaker to the detriment of ALL carriers.

Why will Compass or Mesaba turn away a 5,000hr applicant and welcome the 500hr newbie? Because the 5,000hr applicant has been around the block a few times and the shine has worn off the job. He expects to get compensated for his efforts and will probably muddy the waters for it. If not compensated as he feels appropriate, he'll waste the company's money and leave for better employment. The new guy? Well...he's just happy to fly a regional JET...

It comes down to education. Alot of new pilots today (And over the past few years) don't know much about the history of the industry. They just got swept up with those late 90's United pay scales in flight school advertisements. They're all too happy to shell out some money to GIA. Many have no true appreciation for what the proceeding generation of pilots fought for. Many think that $175 Buddy Passes are fantastic benefits not knowing or having ever heard about ID/90s. And then these pilots run for an ALPA position. Consequently, Management will be able to beat them into submission while telling them they've never had it so good. ALPA can only be as strong as it's weakest link, and there are many weak links. Just an observation.

 

[stlflyguy]

Regul8r,

Phenomenal post. 'Nuf said.

stlflyguy

 

[DoinTime]

Regul8r,

Phenomenal post. 'Nuf said.

stlflyguy

If you think its such a phenomenal post then how can you stand behind you previous comments. ALPA is only as strong as it weakest pilots. Weak pilots are those that refuse to put down their personal agendas, conspiracies, or biases for the betterment of the group.

 

[stlflyguy]

If you think its such a phenomenal post then how can you stand behind you previous comments. ALPA is only as strong as it weakest pilots. Weak pilots are those that refuse to put down their personal agendas, conspiracies, or biases for the betterment of the group.

Look, my comments about ALPA stem from the fact that there is a very obvious disconnect between large carriers and small. Large carriers WILL drive the agenda at ALPA. It will take the wills of many smaller carriers to go ahead and WORK together towards common goals to make them heard. But until you get Chip and Skyler out of the mindset that their job at XYZ Regional airlines is just a "tour of duty" you won't be able to achieve a "minimum" type of contract that should be in place at every regional airline...meaning that certain work rules and certain pay should be a "minimum"...not THE minimum.

Look at it this way.... with hindsight 20/20, would you have rather been a much more participatory pilot group giving your MEC and ALPA National (DW) loud and clear instructions and guidance on what to do with the AMR/APA deal?

In the TWA pilots' situation it wasn't a matter of participation. It was a matter of getting National ALPA to act in the interest of the pilots they represented...not the one's that they desired to represent.

stlflyguy