Colgan - Teamsters NMB Vote

[SKYWRJGUY]

Sweet: Vote for ALPA, they know how to use Microsoft Office.

 

[CopilotDoug]

This discussion has to continue until enough people believe it can be a reality. I feel that at least I've shown you that the theory is alive and working and that its not just pie in the sky. There are so many things that people have said in the history of mankind that something can't be done or that it will never happen. That is not good enough especially when we can see an actual real life model is working. If it can work for the Longshoreman it can work for pilots. Of course seniority is an obstacle but only because no one is willing to forget about the past and how bad you had it and everyone else has to pay their dues as well blah blah blah, and be a little open minded and forward looking, willing to make one more sacrifice to actually make it happen once and for all. Sure, it will take time and maybe its another 30 years, although I don't believe it will be that long, but its still better than just giving up because its too hard.

If you still don't feel that this can happen, then what exactly do you think needs to happen for it to become reality? This is not some kind of technological leap we are trying to make here. Its an abstract man made idea that can be changed if enough people wanted to. Now tell me, what needs to happen to get enough people to believe so that we can fix this man made issue?

Willing to forget about the past? You have pilots who have flown for their entire professional career. Many have gone back to 1st year pay MULTIPLE times. Many of these guys have meager retirements saved up partly due to WEAK contracts and countless personal sacrifices made in the name of this "profession."

And you're asking that they just brush the past away to make ANOTHER sacrifice for someone who hasn't contributed anything (300hr GLA SuperPilot) to the industry yet?

Good luck with that.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Kennedy has actually been a good friend of pilots over the years. He supports us and our issues 99% of the time. Deregulation obviously didn't work out well for us, but keep in mind that ALPA never had an official position on deregulation when it was being debated. If ALPA had adamantly opposed it, you never know what Kennedy would have done.

That 1% makes the other 99% seem quite insignificant. Here we are nearly 30 years later and it's still rolling down-hill.

This just shows how ignorant you are of the problems we have to solve. Many of our problems can only be solved with the help of politicians. You have to play the game, my friend. When laws are what hurt your leverage, then politicians are needed to fix them. All of the unity and solidarity in the world isn't going to help you if the law is stacked against you.

A GLA guy calling someone ignorant? Change your tone and avoid the pain.

Back on topic...

Let me ask you...who are the politicians amenable to? 50,000 airline pilots...OR THE WHOLE COUNTRY?

Negotiations, obviously. Make portable longevity a required item in every ALPA contract, and make it a strike issue.

Of course! Because contracts are permanent and set in stone!

You guys have your heart in the right place...but your head up the wrong place.

 

[PCL_128]

That 1% makes the other 99% seem quite insignificant. Here we are nearly 30 years later and it's still rolling down-hill.

Again, the union never took a stance on deregulation, so he wasn't against us on that issue. Stop trying to rewrite history to support your ALPA hatred.

A GLA guy calling someone ignorant?

Great Lakes Aviation? Never worked there. Sorry. As for your ignorance, it's self-evident.

Let me ask you...who are the politicians amenable to? 50,000 airline pilots...OR THE WHOLE COUNTRY?

Politicians are amenable to the special interest groups that give them money and support. For Democrats and a few Republicans, organized labor is a huge special interest group that they can't do without. ALPA is a key player in the AFL-CIO, and Democratic politicians are loathe to go against the AFL. It can make the difference in whether they hold their seat or are sent packing at the next election. Politics is all about money, not about voters. Wake up to reality.

 

[WayBack]

Great Lakes Aviation? Never worked there. Sorry. As for your ignorance, it's self-evident..

We all know he ment GIA...the place where you paid for your first job.
Since you're so tight in brotherhood and preserving the careers of fellow pilots, how do you feel that you put a fellow pilot on the street, because YOU PAID for that job?
Just face the truth. You can care less about your fellow pilot. Your actions have proved otherwise. You're all about the advancement of YOU.
You paid for your first job. You ran from a ALPA carrier to a non ALPA carrier because it was what you refered to as "Your dream job"

So don't get on your high horse and try to talk down to other pilots. You've done enough damage to your fellow pilot group. Being an ALPA Cheerleader won't fix what you have done.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Again, the union never took a stance on deregulation, so he wasn't against us on that issue. Stop trying to rewrite history to support your ALPA hatred.

That doesn't let ALPA off the hook. And who has hatred for ALPA? I don't support the idea of ALPA is all. No hatred here man.

Great Lakes Aviation? Never worked there. Sorry. As for your ignorance, it's self-evident.

Sorry...GIA. GLA guys wouldn't stab their fellow pilots in the back, and then turn around and dictate the need for fellow pilots to give and make sacrifices for the Union (Which....ironically, they don't belong to anymore)

Politicians are amenable to the special interest groups that give them money and support. For Democrats and a few Republicans, organized labor is a huge special interest group that they can't do without. ALPA is a key player in the AFL-CIO, and Democratic politicians are loathe to go against the AFL. It can make the difference in whether they hold their seat or are sent packing at the next election. Politics is all about money, not about voters. Wake up to reality.

Using your logic...who carries the wallet? A few organized labor groups, or Big Business? Open your eyes to reality.

 

[DX Rick]

Sorry...GIA. GLA guys wouldn't stab their fellow pilots in the back, and then turn around and dictate the need for fellow pilots to give and make sacrifices for the Union (Which....ironically, they don't belong to anymore)

Do as I say, not as I do.

 

[stlflyguy]

ALPA will spend millions to recruit even the smallest carriers. Not because of the dues gained, but because loss of that carrier to a rival union means there's an alternative that the rest of the ALPA membership can turn to should their opinion of ALPA sour. By having ALL airlines represented by ALPA means there are few, if any, alternatives.

stlflyguy

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

How long has this utopian idea of ALPA representing every airline group been around? No disrespect to you, Nevets, but it boils down to alot of pilots talking the talk and not walking the walk. And for a number of very good reasons ranging from seniority and pay to attrition.

It's akin to the new college grad armed with all his book knowledge...first thing he's going to do when he graduates is grab the world by the balls...in theory, it works.

How is this for talking the talk and NOT waling the walk...

ALPA pilots.....

5% meeting particaption.
33% voter particaption
14% PAC participation


But don't fret.... when it comes to Americans participating in democracy, they don't do much better...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ALPA-PAC? HA! ALPA has been paying Ted Kennedy for how many years??? What the hell has Kennedy done for the Pilots besides tossing their QOL out the window by Co-Authoring the Deregulation Act? There's part of your problem...Looking to Politicians to solve your problems.

Actually when the Port Security fiasco was being goofed by the Bush Admin and Congress was trying to put out legislation on port security the beloved GOP tried to make a labor strike akin to an act of terrorism, warranting a response by the federal gov't. (troops, police, etc...). Think about that.... a labor strike being treated as a terrorist attack...

Kennedy stopped the draft legislation....

Considering a Single Seniority or Portable longevity? And management will be obliged to sign off on that why?

they would not because tools like you and Joey keep posting on FI, dividing pilots.....

 

[CopilotDoug]

How is this for talking the talk and NOT waling the walk...

ALPA pilots.....

5% meeting particaption.
33% voter particaption
14% PAC participation


But don't fret.... when it comes to Americans participating in democracy, they don't do much better...

Why aren't the pilots participating? One would think if they REALLY believed in the system, then they'd participate, right?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Why aren't the pilots participating? One would think if they REALLY believed in the system, then they'd participate, right?

or if they didn't believe in the system they would work to make the system work...

Why anyone would sit there in apathy watching or ignoring a system that doesn't work that is tied to their very livelihood is stupid, insane, ignorant and they get exactly what they are getting....

put nothing into it... get nothing out of it....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Sweet: Vote for ALPA, they know how to use Microsoft Office.

ALPA also knows how to use allot of other things too that SKYWEST pilots benefit without contributing...

the list goes on....

 

[CopilotDoug]

Actually when the Port Security fiasco was being goofed by the Bush Admin and Congress was trying to put out legislation on port security the beloved GOP tried to make a labor strike akin to an act of terrorism, warranting a response by the federal gov't. (troops, police, etc...). Think about that.... a labor strike being treated as a terrorist attack...

Kennedy stopped the draft legislation...

Ah...Port Security! They run an airline, don't they? I'd be interested in reading about it anyway. Link?

they would not because tools like you and Joey keep posting on FI, dividing pilots.....

Who was dividing the pilots in the 80s and 90s when there was no FlightInfo?

 

[CopilotDoug]

ALPA also knows how to use allot of other things too that SKYWEST pilots benefit without contributing...

the list goes on....

And the AUDACITY of those GA pilots wanting to benefit from all the airway/airport infrastructure ALPA helped usher in...bunch of damned free loaders!!!

I am indifferent to the Skywest pilots.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ALPA will spend millions to recruit even the smallest carriers. Not because of the dues gained, but because loss of that carrier to a rival union means there's an alternative that the rest of the ALPA membership can turn to should their opinion of ALPA sour. By having ALL airlines represented by ALPA means there are few, if any, alternatives.

stlflyguy

You could be a participatory force in your union...

I can't image that the TWA guys were an anomaly when it came to participation at TWA ALPA....


Imagine if 66% or even 75% of the members were a force for the MEC to deal with...... consider if the TWA MEC was more fearful or concerned of the TWA pilots than he was DW, the APA and AMR....

"nope..." says the TWA MEC chairman... I can't do that... my pilots would hang me if I did.....

Why do what the TWA pilots want...... in fact.. what do they want? They never attend meetings, never vote, never communicate... I am just suppose to know what they what....



While it maybe be obvious what you wanted, the fact that a long standing precedent of non communication can give the elected leadership the feeling of 'carte blanc' when it comes to representation...



Look at it this way.... with hindsight 20/20, would you have rather been a much more participatory pilot group giving your MEC and ALPA National (DW) loud and clear instructions and guidance on what to do with the AMR/APA deal?

 

[Regul8r]

Pilots did it to themselves. There's a prevalent mindset that Regionals are not real careers. "Pay your dues" for 2 or 3 years and jump ship for the "majors." You're not going to be there very long, so why worry about contributing? Just put your time in and get out.

On a side note, what kind of attitude do you think this back-pack wearing moron takes to the "Majors"?

In the meantime, the contracts at the regionals get weaker to the detriment of ALL carriers.

Why will Compass or Mesaba turn away a 5,000hr applicant and welcome the 500hr newbie? Because the 5,000hr applicant has been around the block a few times and the shine has worn off the job. He expects to get compensated for his efforts and will probably muddy the waters for it. If not compensated as he feels appropriate, he'll waste the company's money and leave for better employment. The new guy? Well...he's just happy to fly a regional JET...

It comes down to education. Alot of new pilots today (And over the past few years) don't know much about the history of the industry. They just got swept up with those late 90's United pay scales in flight school advertisements. They're all too happy to shell out some money to GIA. Many have no true appreciation for what the proceeding generation of pilots fought for. Many think that $175 Buddy Passes are fantastic benefits not knowing or having ever heard about ID/90s. And then these pilots run for an ALPA position. Consequently, Management will be able to beat them into submission while telling them they've never had it so good. ALPA can only be as strong as it's weakest link, and there are many weak links. Just an observation.

 

[stlflyguy]

Regul8r,

Phenomenal post. 'Nuf said.

stlflyguy

 

[DoinTime]

Regul8r,

Phenomenal post. 'Nuf said.

stlflyguy

If you think its such a phenomenal post then how can you stand behind you previous comments. ALPA is only as strong as it weakest pilots. Weak pilots are those that refuse to put down their personal agendas, conspiracies, or biases for the betterment of the group.

 

[stlflyguy]

If you think its such a phenomenal post then how can you stand behind you previous comments. ALPA is only as strong as it weakest pilots. Weak pilots are those that refuse to put down their personal agendas, conspiracies, or biases for the betterment of the group.

Look, my comments about ALPA stem from the fact that there is a very obvious disconnect between large carriers and small. Large carriers WILL drive the agenda at ALPA. It will take the wills of many smaller carriers to go ahead and WORK together towards common goals to make them heard. But until you get Chip and Skyler out of the mindset that their job at XYZ Regional airlines is just a "tour of duty" you won't be able to achieve a "minimum" type of contract that should be in place at every regional airline...meaning that certain work rules and certain pay should be a "minimum"...not THE minimum.

Look at it this way.... with hindsight 20/20, would you have rather been a much more participatory pilot group giving your MEC and ALPA National (DW) loud and clear instructions and guidance on what to do with the AMR/APA deal?

In the TWA pilots' situation it wasn't a matter of participation. It was a matter of getting National ALPA to act in the interest of the pilots they represented...not the one's that they desired to represent.

stlflyguy

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Look, my comments about ALPA stem from the fact that there is a very obvious disconnect between large carriers and small. Large carriers WILL drive the agenda at ALPA. It will take the wills of many smaller carriers to go ahead and WORK together towards common goals to make them heard. But until you get Chip and Skyler out of the mindset that their job at XYZ Regional airlines is just a "tour of duty" you won't be able to achieve a "minimum" type of contract that should be in place at every regional airline...meaning that certain work rules and certain pay should be a "minimum"...not THE minimum.

Well that is the trick isn't it....

Do you think the citizens of AK care about the citizens of FL? They are both Americans yet have very different values.

How do you get people from one group with one set of values to understand and agree with another who happen to have same commonality?

Who's responsibility is that?

Would you have liked pilots at UAL, DAL and NWA to stand up and say to DW and ALPA National that the APA/AMR merger would not screw the TWA ALPA guys?

We really aren't going to be effective until the major airline pilot steps up and says "No. That is not how it is going to happen because that screws the regional guys"

Are you electing pilots to ALPA positions that are willing to do that?

1. In the TWA pilots' situation it wasn't a matter of participation. 2. It was a matter of getting National ALPA to act in the interest of the pilots they represented...not the one's that they desired to represent.

stlflyguy

I've numbered your sentences for the purpose of discussion...

Sentence 1 clearly contradicts sentence 2. The problem is you don't seem to understand it...

It is all about the how...

How are you going to get ALPA Nat'l to act in the interest of the pilots.

It seems you didn't even read my post entirely...

For if you were to agree with me, then you'd be admitting a failure on your part... A failure to be a responsible, engaged and participatory member.

If you charge a contractor to build your house... do you monitor the progress or do you just show up when the house is finished and built, expecting the house to be exactly the way you like it, with no corners cut. Sure you are paying the contractor to build your house, but doesn't he want to save himself money... you get the idea...

Same deal.... fact is... the TWA guys, just like 90% of ALPA members and just like most Americans let their elected officials alone and expect the results they wanted, without communication, input and direction....


So now you got your lawsuit....


So I'll ask again... in hindsight, would you rather have monitored the TWA MEC and ALPA Nat'l ensuring they looked out for your interests? Or do you prefer the way things are going including the lawsuit method?

 

[stlflyguy]

Do you think the citizens of AK care about the citizens of FL? They are both Americans yet have very different values.

How do you get people from one group with one set of values to understand and agree with another who happen to have same commonality?

AK v. FL. I suppose that if some foreign entity attacked FL (God forbid) it would only be a state issue by your example. No, it's a Federal issue...one in which the Union, in this case NATIONAL should take care of.

How do you get people from one group with one set of values to understand and agree with another who happen to have same commonality?

Who's responsibility is that?

You state it quite easily: it takes the party in common with the others to motivate those people. Answer: NATIONAL.

Would you have liked pilots at UAL, DAL and NWA to stand up and say to DW and ALPA National that the APA/AMR merger would not screw the TWA ALPA guys?

Absolutely! Now...tell me who the common denominator in those airlines are! NATIONAL. Instead, Duane was driven to forge his own legacy of "bringing them all back under the fold." Continental...FedEx...Ameri...oops, have to wait on that one.

Are you electing pilots to ALPA positions that are willing to do that?

I'm not electing anyone Rez, I've been out on the street for some time now...

But let me ask, assuming I could vote: I'm supposed to elect people that will do these things. And then they don't do these things that I want them to do. I only get to elect a few people at my line pilot level. What's my vote mean beyond those people? Besides, even if the person I get to vote in is trumped by the agenda of the others, who's ultimately responsible? Me and my fellow line pilots or the other people WHO ARE IN CHARGE OF THE NATIONAL UNION?

So I'll ask again... in hindsight, would you rather have monitored the TWA MEC and ALPA Nat'l ensuring they looked out for your interests? Or do you prefer the way things are going including the lawsuit method?

I can monitor the MEC only so much. When the MEC is being led down a path constructed by ALPA, undermining my MEC's attempts to represent its' pilots, I end up going with the lawsuit method.

stlflyguy

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Cherry picking my post? Replying to the easy parts?


So even in America, the land of individual rights, you are really just a victim?

So in other countries you'd have it better....

It really comes down to National... just not doing what you want them to do for you, the victim...


So what is the point? If you aren't willing to do for you, why do you expect others to do for you... that what you won't do?

You don't believe you should particpate, communicate and engage, but yet somehow, someway, NATIONAL is suppose to know what you want....

 

[stlflyguy]

No Rez, National has a duty--a duty to fairly represent.

stlflyguy

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

No Rez, National has a duty--a duty to fairly represent.

stlflyguy

who? You? What about the other 58,999 guys....

C'mon man, this is basic stuff here.... you know, high school civics...

How is Congress and POTUS supposed to represent the other 299,999,999 other citizens....

So we just vote (well about 1/3 of us anyway) and shut of the communication and elected reps are supposed to know....

 

[stlflyguy]

Enough Rez. My last post to you in this thread.

 

[DoinTime]

Look, my comments about ALPA stem from the fact that there is a very obvious disconnect between large carriers and small.

What disconnect is that? Striving for better pay and working conditions? Pushing for enhanced air Safety? Establishing a position of influence on a governmental level? Coordination with pilot unions all over the world? Providing centralized, top shelf services for all MECs to utilize? Anchoring a repository of professional knowledge, corporate memory and experience in a legal department for the use of all pilots? Furnish medical services to all pilots to protect their careers in case of an unfortunate medical problem?

These are the objectives of the national structure of ALPA. These should be common goals for all pilots. Perhaps you can outline your version of a disconnect if you are not in agreement with this.

Large carriers WILL drive the agenda at ALPA.

What agenda? The pilot agenda? Small carriers now make up over 1/3 the of the voting block at ALPA. Major changes at ALPA cannot be had without buy in from small carriers. The 401K dues assessment rejection this past summer was a good indicator of the changing tide within the ALPA board of directors.

It will take the wills of many smaller carriers to go ahead and WORK together towards common goals to make them heard.

I agree. Only through cross carrier coordinated action and leadership will anything that ever amounts to anything ever be accomplished. Great work is already underway with the fee for departure group and the coordinated efforts between ALPA "new DCI" carriers and the "new DAL" MEC. Long time industry observers have hailed these efforts the most promising and progressive action to come out of ALPA in decades.

If any of this work is to succeed though it has to have buy in from the line pilots. At some point in history it became "fashionable" for pilots to loath and mistrust their Union. While I understand that various MECs and National itself have made some missteps in the past we cannot expect to get anywhere if we can't pull our house back in order and go back and get what we have lost.

 

[stlflyguy]

Scope is probably the biggest example. ABC's scope clause immediately impacts XYZ regional's operations.

Striving for better pay and working conditions? Pushing for enhanced air Safety? Establishing a position of influence on a governmental level? Coordination with pilot unions all over the world? Providing centralized, top shelf services for all MECs to utilize? Anchoring a repository of professional knowledge, corporate memory and experience in a legal department for the use of all pilots? Furnish medical services to all pilots to protect their careers in case of an unfortunate medical problem?

There are many great things that the Union provides, no doubt. I don't necessarily agree that all of them are what you say they are ("top shelf"), but many of them are good.

If ALPA advertised an agenda that "we're going to recruit another 10,000 members no matter what the cost" would you agree to it?

stlflyguy

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Enough Rez. My last post to you in this thread.

You want results but you have no idea HOW those results should come about....

 

[Jamis81]

Teamsters Really??

Any Colgan pilot that votes for Teamsters needs to have his head examined.

I agree with you there.. I know some former Teamsters in the airlines, who wanted to strike and were told they could not.. Teamsters wouldn't support them to strike...

And honestly, if you think Teamsters will be better, just talk to a Chautauqa Pilot, I have talked to quite a few there that aren't happy with Teamsters either.