Colgan - Teamsters NMB Vote

[DOVPILOT]

The teamsters drivers at UPS were going to honor the IPA picket line if the UPS pilots went on strike....

That is more of a reason NOT to go Teamsters and go IPA/(insert your own union name here). This is the problem with Local 747, you are treated like a real member if you are a truck driver than an airline pilot....VOTE ALPA !!!!!

 

[CopilotDoug]

I agree 100% and now its going to take sacrifice from us pilots to put the genie back in the bottle. But that wont ever happen with a hodge podge of union and non-union pilot groups.

How long has this utopian idea of ALPA representing every airline group been around? No disrespect to you, Nevets, but it boils down to alot of pilots talking the talk and not walking the walk. And for a number of very good reasons ranging from seniority and pay to attrition.

It's akin to the new college grad armed with all his book knowledge...first thing he's going to do when he graduates is grab the world by the balls...in theory, it works.

 

[DX Rick]

You're a one trick pony, Joey, and it's not even a very good trick.

One trick pony? Look at yourself, man.
ALPA can do no wrong according to you.
If you wouldn't trust your career in the hands of another Union or the airline management. Why did you chose to go to a Non-ALPA airline?

 

[Nevets]

How long has this utopian idea of ALPA representing every airline group been around? No disrespect to you, Nevets, but it boils down to alot of pilots talking the talk and not walking the walk. And for a number of very good reasons ranging from seniority and pay to attrition.

It's akin to the new college grad armed with all his book knowledge...first thing he's going to do when he graduates is grab the world by the balls...in theory, it works.

The theory is working for the Longshoremen.

 

[CopilotDoug]

The theory is working for the Longshoremen.

How many kids today are racking up thousands of dollars in debt to be trained as a longshoreman? How many spikey haired, back pack wearing newbies are working the docks? That's only where the differences start.

 

[Nevets]

How many kids today are racking up thousands of dollars in debt to be trained as a longshoreman? How many spikey haired, back pack wearing newbies are working the docks? That's only where the differences start.

So your saying that the theory actually works and that some people need to have this communicated to them.

 

[CopilotDoug]

So your saying that the theory actually works and that some people need to have this communicated to them.

For the sake of this discussion; not in the airline world it doesn't work.

 

[Nevets]

For the sake of this discussion; not in the airline world it doesn't work.

Why not and how can we make it work?

 

[CopilotDoug]

Why not and how can we make it work?

That is the $64 question, my friend.

 

[Nevets]

That is the $64 question, my friend.

Well, you first tell me that it only works in theory, so basically, don't even try. Then I point out the the theory is working with the Longshoreman. Then you say it wont work in the airline industry. So it seems to me that if the theory works but you say it wouldn't work in the airline industry, that you would have said that because you actually know why it wouldn't work in the airline industry. That is why I asked you. And that is why I even offered a probable solution, communication of the idea. But if you can only tell all of us what that is, we can all start working on fixing that.

So tell me, since you know it works for the Longshoreman but that it wouldn't work in the airline industry, why is that? In other words, why do you say the theory wont work in the airline industry? Or were you just making that up?

 

[CopilotDoug]

Well, you first tell me that it only works in theory, so basically, don't even try. Then I point out the the theory is working with the Longshoreman. Then you say it wont work in the airline industry. So it seems to me that if the theory works but you say it wouldn't work in the airline industry, that you would have said that because you actually know why it wouldn't work in the airline industry. That is why I asked you. And that is why I even offered a probable solution, communication of the idea. But if you can only tell all of us what that is, we can all start working on fixing that.

So tell me, since you know it works for the Longshoreman but that it wouldn't work in the airline industry, why is that? In other words, why do you say the theory wont work in the airline industry? Or were you just making that up?

Ask me all you want, this isn't the first time this discussion has been had. Go back 30 years and it STILL wasn't the first time it was discussed. Seniority and the RLA play a BIG role...

And if you can convince me that Airline Pilots and the Longshormen have more in common than they differ, I will accept that as a guiding model. I think they're too different to be compared.

 

[CEO silly sap]

Ask me all you want, this isn't the first time this discussion has been had. Go back 30 years and it STILL wasn't the first time it was discussed. Seniority and the RLA play a BIG role...

And if you can convince me that Airline Pilots and the Longshormen have more in common than they differ, I will accept that as a guiding model. I think they're too different to be compared.

Yet you still have failed to answer his very simple question. I will give you credit on your end around technique. Now can you answer the question or not.

 

[PCL_128]

That is the $64 question, my friend.

And people like Nevets, Rez, and I are working on an answer while people like you and Joey are whining and giving up. If you aren't part of the solution, then you're part of the problem.

 

[DX Rick]

And people like Nevets, Rez, and I are working on an answer while people like you and Joey are whining and giving up. If you aren't part of the solution, then you're part of the problem.

You tucked tail and ran to a NonALPA carrier. How are you helping?

 

[Nevets]

Ask me all you want, this isn't the first time this discussion has been had. Go back 30 years and it STILL wasn't the first time it was discussed. Seniority and the RLA play a BIG role...

And if you can convince me that Airline Pilots and the Longshormen have more in common than they differ, I will accept that as a guiding model. I think they're too different to be compared.

This discussion has to continue until enough people believe it can be a reality. I feel that at least I've shown you that the theory is alive and working and that its not just pie in the sky. There are so many things that people have said in the history of mankind that something can't be done or that it will never happen. That is not good enough especially when we can see an actual real life model is working. If it can work for the Longshoreman it can work for pilots. Of course seniority is an obstacle but only because no one is willing to forget about the past and how bad you had it and everyone else has to pay their dues as well blah blah blah, and be a little open minded and forward looking, willing to make one more sacrifice to actually make it happen once and for all. Sure, it will take time and maybe its another 30 years, although I don't believe it will be that long, but its still better than just giving up because its too hard.

If you still don't feel that this can happen, then what exactly do you think needs to happen for it to become reality? This is not some kind of technological leap we are trying to make here. Its an abstract man made idea that can be changed if enough people wanted to. Now tell me, what needs to happen to get enough people to believe so that we can fix this man made issue?

 

[Fred Rogers]

Seriously though folks, do you think that the Colgan Pilots are better off UNrepresented than with ALPA??? Are you KIDDING me???

So the IBT drive didn't go so hot, they didn't get on the ballot. Now is not the time to cry in our beer about what should have happened. If you wanted Jimmy Hoffa representing you so bad, then you should have stepped up and volunteered to help their organizing committee out. Since you didn't, and ALPA is the only union on the ballot it's time to get behind it and make sure we get representation.

Think about this for a second; if roles were reversed, and IBT was on the ballot while ALPA faded into oblivion, do you think that there would be a major difference in who would be on the eventual MEC??? It will probably be the same people who are willing to step up and volunteer. It seems to be universally accepted that your union is only as good as your reps.

DON'T DELAY VOTE TODAY!!!
www.alpa.org/colgan

 

[CopilotDoug]

Yet you still have failed to answer his very simple question. I will give you credit on your end around technique. Now can you answer the question or not.

Where's the 'end around?' I gave you two examples of why the whole "All Carriers Under ALPA will Hold Hands and sing Kumbaya Together" won't work.

The RLA takes away any real leverage the Union had...and the seniority/pay issue can divide a carrier in and of itself, let alone multiple carriers attempting to stand together.

Heck, I'll admit, Maybe after a few puffs of what the ALPA fanatics are smoking, I'd believe in the idea too.

 

[PCL_128]

Where's the 'end around?' I gave you two examples of why the whole "All Carriers Under ALPA will Hold Hands and sing Kumbaya Together" won't work.

The RLA takes away any real leverage the Union had...and the seniority/pay issue can divide a carrier in and of itself, let alone multiple carriers attempting to stand together.

Heck, I'll admit, Maybe after a few puffs of what the ALPA fanatics are smoking, I'd believe in the idea too.

The RLA only takes away leverage when someone like Shrub is in office. You're about to see a much different situation at the NMB. Besides, if you don't like the RLA, then the way to change it is to contribute to ALPA-PAC and work to get it changed. Sitting around and whining about it won't get you anywhere.

As for seniority issues, ALPA is considering the idea of portable longevity or a single list.

 

[CopilotDoug]

The RLA only takes away leverage when someone like Shrub is in office. You're about to see a much different situation at the NMB. Besides, if you don't like the RLA, then the way to change it is to contribute to ALPA-PAC and work to get it changed. Sitting around and whining about it won't get you anywhere.

As for seniority issues, ALPA is considering the idea of portable longevity or a single list.

ALPA-PAC? HA! ALPA has been paying Ted Kennedy for how many years??? What the hell has Kennedy done for the Pilots besides tossing their QOL out the window by Co-Authoring the Deregulation Act? There's part of your problem...Looking to Politicians to solve your problems.

Considering a Single Seniority or Portable longevity? And management will be obliged to sign off on that why?

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA-PAC? HA! ALPA has been paying Ted Kennedy for how many years??? What the hell has Kennedy done for the Pilots

Kennedy has actually been a good friend of pilots over the years. He supports us and our issues 99% of the time. Deregulation obviously didn't work out well for us, but keep in mind that ALPA never had an official position on deregulation when it was being debated. If ALPA had adamantly opposed it, you never know what Kennedy would have done.

There's part of your problem...Looking to Politicians to solve your problems.

This just shows how ignorant you are of the problems we have to solve. Many of our problems can only be solved with the help of politicians. You have to play the game, my friend. When laws are what hurt your leverage, then politicians are needed to fix them. All of the unity and solidarity in the world isn't going to help you if the law is stacked against you.

Considering a Single Seniority or Portable longevity? And management will be obliged to sign off on that why?

Negotiations, obviously. Make portable longevity a required item in every ALPA contract, and make it a strike issue.