can we totally blame de-regulation

[UALRATT]

would this increase ticket prices?

Yip you certainly argue your point like a high school drop out rather than the college grad that you are. Is it deregulation or actually partial regulation? FAR Part 1 thru Part 1399 would cease to exist if the industry was indeed deregulated. Both you and I know very well that these same regulation adds considerable burden and cost to the business of operating airplanes. We are also keenly aware that the Act of 1977 only removed barriers to entry (barring a few airports requiring slots), and placed product valuation directly into the hands of mediocrity. What the government essentially proclaimed back then was that it would not be the one to continue subsidizing the industry. Instead, the airlines had to find another partner to accept that role and certainly they did. The EMPLOYEES!!

So you my friend had to pitch in to allow ticket prices are become artificially low. You've been subsidizing them all along much to your chagrin. Now here is what's really interesting: You keep mentioning time and time again about how bad you've had it in this business. Yet you keep :smash: the one thing that will provide that stability you wish for. Your career would probably have been much more stable had we either completely deregulated the industry or kept it completely regulated. Your love affair with present day "deregulation" has indeed been a disaster for you, and for all of us...

 

[pilotyip]

Yip you certainly argue your point like a high school drop out rather than the college grad that you are. Is it deregulation or actually partial regulation? ......industry. Instead, the airlines had to find another partner to accept that role and certainly they did. The EMPLOYEES!! .........it completely regulated. Your love affair with present day "deregulation" has indeed been a disaster for you, and for all of us...

Think you got it wrong, I am only saying there is no Pandora’s box, where everything comes out all roses. There are unintended consequences to every action. If you change the status quo, others things will change. We do not know what those will be until after the change has been implemented. I am only saying that anything that rasies tickets prices will effect ridership. An airline ticket is a nearly perfectly elastic commodity. Someone prove me wrong, shut down an airline to get what you want and show me how much better it is. BTW I did not cause this disaster, I am only an observer who has been treated very well by my career choice.

 

[Flopgut]

More to the point of the thread: What Wilbur Ross said is that we have a problem with states negotiating with other countries directly without Federal guidance. Alabama cuts a sweetheart deal with a foriegn automaker and cuts the nuts off the UAL jobs in Michigan. If all we care about if cheap cars, that's one thing. But if we are wondering why the best paying American jobs are going away we need to address this.

Same thing happened years ago with deregulation. Harding Lawrence was running Braniff at the time and felt deregulation was going to fail. He launched a couple hundred new destinations as soon as he could. He also squared off with SWA at Love and matched every flight/fare they had and meant to put them out of business. Afterall, this was supposed to be deregulation. Well, the State of Texas got involved in what was clearly a federal matter, and had Braniff thrown out of Love. The rest is history. SWA was propped up then and have been propped up since (when necessary) to make the case that deregulation was a good idea. Imagine what this country's worldwide airline presence would be if Braniff was still around?

 

[AgreenFO]

Mother Fokker you can always call Rusty and get a job but you still can't sit at his lunch table. Kelly called me and told me Sloy and Weird are having a pregnancy dispute. Good luck with Rusty

 

[pilotyip]

Same thing happened years ago with deregulation. Harding Lawrence was running Braniff at the time and felt deregulation was going to fail. He launched a couple hundred new destinations as soon as he could. He also squared off with SWA at Love and matched every flight/fare they had and meant to put them out of business. Afterall, this was supposed to be deregulation. Well, the State of Texas got involved in what was clearly a federal matter, and had Braniff thrown out of Love. The rest is history. SWA was propped up then and have been propped up since (when necessary) to make the case that deregulation was a good idea. Imagine what this country's worldwide airline presence would be if Braniff was still around?

read "Hard Landing" AAL put Branniff out of business, by using Sabre to point all passengers to AAL.

 

[Linedriver]

The problem with our current lifestyle/compensations is the unions. It is...

When fuel commodity increases in cost the airlines find a way to pay for it because they won't be going anywhere without it. Same thing for the airframes. The airline doesn't get a break on these costs just because times get lean, they raise fares, charge for bags, they make a way to make it happen. But when it comes to the pilot group, our unions put us on sale to save the airline. The airline will break a contract to get lower wages but when times get better they won't do anything until contract time. And then it's a pittance to what was given up.

I think a unionized voice is a good thing but ALPA has become an entity to justify its own existence. Do you know what DAL/NWA pay in dues annually? Around $25 million! I don't know about you but I don't need to pay someone to compromise my own compensation package. Do you? I think we can do a better job by taking the union in house and representing ourselves.

When our union decides to set a different standard for the pilot group things may start to improve. Until then the airline will continue to see the pilots as a flexible cost and compensation will continue to be compromised.

There are three things that make an airplane fly. The airplane, fuel in the airplane and pilots to fly the airplane. Two of those costs are fixed. When our union quits putting us on sale things will get better.

That's my opinion.

 

[Mamma]

I would venture to say a combination of events evolved the modern airline industry. It worked great for some people and companies and not so well for others. SWA is doing great but TWA went down the tubes for example.

Internet. Ability to buy from multiple places competing for business. Showing the lowest ticket price out there and getting travel agents out of the airline ticket selling business. This really caused airlines to fight hard for marketshare by going as low as possible on the tickets...to the point of losing money on the route just to keep it. Those with high overhead costs had to adapt. Jetblue and Southwest were eating the legacies lunch. Since corporate raiders laid waste to many an airline, labor was the only place to go to realize the savings needed.

LCCs and Ultra LCCs flying one type of aircraft, point to point, no frills and very cheap tickets flooded the market with seats.

Loss of Scope. Huge killer.

Bankruptcy laws that favor Management over Labor.

Out-dating of the hub and spoke system.

HUGE numbers of people wanted to be pilots and flooded the market driving down what we are worth. Supply and demand.

ATA and Airline Industrial Labor Council.

Weak and spineless ALPA leadership.

Loss of flight engineers.

Can anyone think of more.....

 

[Newjetjockey]

List of airline strikes under the NMB. Notice any trends?
http://www.nmb.gov/publicinfo/airline-strikes.html

 

[pilotyip]

List of airline strikes under the NMB. Notice any trends?
http://www.nmb.gov/publicinfo/airline-strikes.html

a lot of them are out of business? Is that the trend we were looking for?

 

[inline]

Embraier and Bombardier are also highly subsidized. Just wait until there's a 737-900 sized jungle jet........................

 

[inline]

Life was good for a few pilots under regulation. There are probably 4-5 times as many pilot’s jobs now as there was in 1977. Back in reg time it was about 90% military that went to the majors. Dereg opened up a lot of airline job to non-military pilots. To return to regulation would raise ticket prices, reduce the number of passengers, and therefore reduce the number of pilots needed. Re-reg would be good for a few senior pilots not so good for everyone else.

Well said

 

[Regul8r]

Life was good for a few pilots under regulation. There are probably 4-5 times as many pilot’s jobs now as there was in 1977. Back in reg time it was about 90% military that went to the majors. Dereg opened up a lot of airline job to non-military pilots. To return to regulation would raise ticket prices, reduce the number of passengers, and therefore reduce the number of pilots needed. Re-reg would be good for a few senior pilots not so good for everyone else.

YIP, you speak as if we are entitled to flying jobs just because we're pilots. The fact of the matter is that while there are more flying jobs available today, the pay has come down considerably. Couple that with job instability and all you've done is spread the misery around. Why not leave your position at USA and go take the right seat in an RJ if you love flying so much? They'll give you all the flying you can handle, and then some!

 

[pilotyip]

YIP, you speak as if we are entitled to flying jobs just because we're pilots. The fact of the matter is that while there are more flying jobs available today, the pay has come down considerably. Couple that with job instability and all you've done is spread the misery around. Why not leave your position at USA and go take the right seat in an RJ if you love flying so much? They'll give you all the flying you can handle, and then some!

too old they would not take me, not saying that it is a bad career, 11 jobs in 33 years, and it has been a ball, coming into retirement in good shape, life is good

 

[Kalifornia]

Pilotyip is still the master tool and the safety demon. He would cower in front of any friends and family of air crash victims' families with his absolute market based decision making. TCAS, will that raise ticket prices? EPGWS, will that raise ticket prices? Pilot make a professional decision on logistics of specific MEL, will that raise ticket prices? Mandatory maintenance inspections, will that raise ticket prices? Colgan airlines having to treat the pilots better, will that raise ticket prices? Minimum rest requirements, will that raise ticket prices? Professional liability based wages, will that raise ticket prices. You and your type are POS to aviation safety.

 

[pilotyip]

Pilotyip is still the master tool and the safety demon. He would cower in front of any friends and family of air crash victims' families with his absolute market based decision making. TCAS, will that raise ticket prices? EPGWS, will that raise ticket prices? Pilot make a professional decision on logistics of specific MEL, will that raise ticket prices? Mandatory maintenance inspections, will that raise ticket prices? Colgan airlines having to treat the pilots better, will that raise ticket prices? Minimum rest requirements, will that raise ticket prices? Professional liability based wages, will that raise ticket prices. You and your type are POS to aviation safety.

Good to see you again, I thought maybe you had tired of following me around. Looks like you still care. I am blessed, everything you mention is an imposed regulation, equally imposed on all operators, it rasies tickets prices equally, much like the increase in fuel prices. These will effect the market, less people will ride airplanes because they chose an alternate means of moving more point A to point B. I.e. the layoffs as a result of decreased ridership during hte peak oil of 2008. All airlines face these equally, but when an individual airline elects to place themselves above the market price they then face competition from lower cost air carrier, they will loose ridership. Real simple stuff, Adam Smith figured it out 230 years ago, still applies. I am humbled to be in your presence, you the only true source of any knowledge of the airline industry, best of luck