can we totally blame de-regulation

[Flopgut]

Life was good for a few pilots under regulation. There are probably 4-5 times as many pilot’s jobs now as there was in 1977. Back in reg time it was about 90% military that went to the majors. Dereg opened up a lot of airline job to non-military pilots. To return to regulation would raise ticket prices, reduce the number of passengers, and therefore reduce the number of pilots needed. Re-reg would be good for a few senior pilots not so good for everyone else.

This is hard for pilots to do, but each of us need to remove ourselves from the equation. Is what was done with deregulation proved to be beneficial?

Do you think an airline ticket should be part of unemployment benefits? Because that's just about where we are....

Other countries decide they want to enable and nurture airlines, what's wrong with that? The Emir in UAE clearly wants to run an airline. That could be done here, but some small carrier claiming to halve the fares would immediately go after it. The small carrier can't sustain the fare and then both carriers suffer.

 

[pilotyip]

Nationize airlines?

This is hard for pilots to do, but each of us need to remove ourselves from the .....o halve the fares would immediately go after it. The small carrier can't sustain the fare and then both carriers suffer.

So I take it you are all for state run airlines under regulation? right?

 

[cynic]

If you are discussing only pilot salaries then you are not correct. The decline of union power is almost 100% to blame. Certainly it was these same government policies that led to deregulation so in a sense, both deregulation and anti union laws are the result of pro business anti labor policies.

A very nice paper on the topic can be found here -http://www.slate.com/id/2266025/entry/2266031/

 

[Flopgut]

So I take it you are all for state run airlines under regulation? right?

No. But let's decide what we are going to be good at as a nation and then let's get about doing it. Airlines would be a great thing to do. We lead in all other things areospace, why not airlines? Look, we're almost going to be where I'm talking about being. Mergers are going to change the landscape and the LCCs won't keep up.... Unless the govt steps in. We're allowed to be deregulated if it drives the costs down and down. The instant we can make some money and the costs go up.... Who knows? If we're not govt run when we're losing money, don't try to run us when we are.... Period.

 

[pilotyip]

No. But let's decide what we are going to be good at as a nation and then let's get about doing it. Airlines would be a great thing to do. We lead in all other things areospace, why not airlines? Look, we're almost going to be where I'm talking about being. Mergers are going to change the landscape and the LCCs won't keep up.... Unless the govt steps in. We're allowed to be deregulated if it drives the costs down and down. The instant we can make some money and the costs go up.... Who knows? If we're not govt run when we're losing money, don't try to run us when we are.... Period.

would this increase ticket prices?

 

[UALRATT]

would this increase ticket prices?

Yip you certainly argue your point like a high school drop out rather than the college grad that you are. Is it deregulation or actually partial regulation? FAR Part 1 thru Part 1399 would cease to exist if the industry was indeed deregulated. Both you and I know very well that these same regulation adds considerable burden and cost to the business of operating airplanes. We are also keenly aware that the Act of 1977 only removed barriers to entry (barring a few airports requiring slots), and placed product valuation directly into the hands of mediocrity. What the government essentially proclaimed back then was that it would not be the one to continue subsidizing the industry. Instead, the airlines had to find another partner to accept that role and certainly they did. The EMPLOYEES!!

So you my friend had to pitch in to allow ticket prices are become artificially low. You've been subsidizing them all along much to your chagrin. Now here is what's really interesting: You keep mentioning time and time again about how bad you've had it in this business. Yet you keep :smash: the one thing that will provide that stability you wish for. Your career would probably have been much more stable had we either completely deregulated the industry or kept it completely regulated. Your love affair with present day "deregulation" has indeed been a disaster for you, and for all of us...

 

[pilotyip]

Yip you certainly argue your point like a high school drop out rather than the college grad that you are. Is it deregulation or actually partial regulation? ......industry. Instead, the airlines had to find another partner to accept that role and certainly they did. The EMPLOYEES!! .........it completely regulated. Your love affair with present day "deregulation" has indeed been a disaster for you, and for all of us...

Think you got it wrong, I am only saying there is no Pandora’s box, where everything comes out all roses. There are unintended consequences to every action. If you change the status quo, others things will change. We do not know what those will be until after the change has been implemented. I am only saying that anything that rasies tickets prices will effect ridership. An airline ticket is a nearly perfectly elastic commodity. Someone prove me wrong, shut down an airline to get what you want and show me how much better it is. BTW I did not cause this disaster, I am only an observer who has been treated very well by my career choice.

 

[Flopgut]

More to the point of the thread: What Wilbur Ross said is that we have a problem with states negotiating with other countries directly without Federal guidance. Alabama cuts a sweetheart deal with a foriegn automaker and cuts the nuts off the UAL jobs in Michigan. If all we care about if cheap cars, that's one thing. But if we are wondering why the best paying American jobs are going away we need to address this.

Same thing happened years ago with deregulation. Harding Lawrence was running Braniff at the time and felt deregulation was going to fail. He launched a couple hundred new destinations as soon as he could. He also squared off with SWA at Love and matched every flight/fare they had and meant to put them out of business. Afterall, this was supposed to be deregulation. Well, the State of Texas got involved in what was clearly a federal matter, and had Braniff thrown out of Love. The rest is history. SWA was propped up then and have been propped up since (when necessary) to make the case that deregulation was a good idea. Imagine what this country's worldwide airline presence would be if Braniff was still around?

 

[AgreenFO]

Mother Fokker you can always call Rusty and get a job but you still can't sit at his lunch table. Kelly called me and told me Sloy and Weird are having a pregnancy dispute. Good luck with Rusty

 

[pilotyip]

Same thing happened years ago with deregulation. Harding Lawrence was running Braniff at the time and felt deregulation was going to fail. He launched a couple hundred new destinations as soon as he could. He also squared off with SWA at Love and matched every flight/fare they had and meant to put them out of business. Afterall, this was supposed to be deregulation. Well, the State of Texas got involved in what was clearly a federal matter, and had Braniff thrown out of Love. The rest is history. SWA was propped up then and have been propped up since (when necessary) to make the case that deregulation was a good idea. Imagine what this country's worldwide airline presence would be if Braniff was still around?

read "Hard Landing" AAL put Branniff out of business, by using Sabre to point all passengers to AAL.