Bull Sh*t Resumes

[atlcrashpad]

Logging time

Added note to above post. I suggest calling the FAA in OKC. I called my local FSDO and asked three different inspectors and got two that agreed and one who didn't. So we are where we are. No real answer.

 

[minitour]

61.51 sole manipulator of the controls doesn't apply under 121. That was my point on my last post. As I stated in thread #60, call the FAA see what they say.

Okay, well maybe we're saying the same thing just thinking of it differently?

Here's my thing...Part 61 doesn't say I have to act as PIC to log PIC...and of course you have to have the ATP/Type/training/etc to be PIC under part 121, we know that...but I'd still like to know where under Part 61 it says you have to act as PIC to log PIC...which is what you said

If you don't ACT as PIC you cannot LOG PIC.

from above...

Notice "have to" act as PIC to log...

-mini

*edit*
as an added note...I do agree that if the operation is conducted under Part 121, then only the Captain may log the PIC flight time. The FO logs SIC, etc...

BUT...If the operation is done under part 91, there's no reg that says you have to act as PIC to log PIC.

 

[atlcrashpad]

Logging time

Minitour,

Act and Log? I really don't know why there would be a difference, but it is a valid question. It may be a legal term that the FAA can use to pin the blame on. My whole intent was not to delete anybodies flight time. I've been there, trying to beg, borrow and steal time. I want to warn guys that their times may look fishy and if may cost them an interview. If I'm wrong, I will post it. I'm not infailable. I was just surprised by a few resumes posted on a particular web site that appeared too good to be true. (a few that had thousands of hours PIC and very, very little non PIC and others that claimed Chief Pilot on every job on their resume).

 

[minitour]

Act and log are two different things.

That's why I was so confused at why PIC, SIC and Dual have to = TT...mine certainly doesn't and I know a some successful people that are the same way.

-mini

 

[atlcrashpad]

Logging time

Minitour,

We will have to agree to disagree on the "Act and Log" issue. As for your times, PIC + SIC + Dual (received) should = Total time

If that is not the case, then flags will go up when an HR rep goes over your resume. Just to let all of you guys know, airlines get thousands of resumes a week and go over them really quickly. If it looks funny, they don't call you and ask you to explain. They toss your resume on a "do not call" pile. You loose you shot. I'm just adding some advice to help you get your shot. If you choose to ignore then that is fine. My feelings are not hurt.

I've got to admit, right or wrong, a lot of you guys should have gone to law school. Your arguements are great and point well taken.

Good luck to all.

 

[minitour]

Minitour,

We will have to agree to disagree on the "Act and Log" issue.

No need to agree to disagree. If you can show me in 61.51 where it says I have to act as PIC to log it, I'll gladly admit I was/am wrong. But it is in black and white.

As for your times, PIC + SIC + Dual (received) should = Total time

This one we'll just agree to disagree.

Better idea...lets go have a beer.
:beer:

Titanic is on... "I'll never let go Jack" *SPLASH* LMFAO!

-mini

 

[gkrangers]

Alright...61.51...

I'm recieving instruction, I'm rated in class and category.

I'm acting PIC (sole manipulator), so I'm logging.

Instructer is allowed to LOG all instruction as PIC, so they log it.

So PIC + SIC + Dual doesn't necessarily have to equal TT.

EVERYONE I know logs this way. Every CFI and every student that I know. And people are gettin hired...

I don't see the problem with it.

 

[atlcrashpad]

Logging time

Minitour,

I agree on the beer issue. As for act/log? well I really cannot see a difference. If you log it, shouldn't you be actting as PIC? I don't see how two pilots in one airplane can log PIC at the same time.

gkrangers,

If you log PIC you shouldn't log dual (received). The Total Time should be your Pilot in Command, Second in Command and Dual received. Breaking down conditions is a little different.

That's my point. Guys are logging PIC when receiving instruction from a CFI and logging it as Dual. Or simply not logging the instruction received and logging it all as PIC.

 

[minitour]

Alright...61.51...

I'm recieving instruction, I'm rated in class and category.

I'm acting PIC (sole manipulator), so I'm logging.

Even if you aren't acting PIC...getting your complex endorsement or high performance endorsement perhaps?

You're still category and class rated...still sole manipulator. Go ahead and log it. But your instructor has to act as PIC of that plane (61.31 applies there).

-mini

 

[atlcrashpad]

Logging time

I totally understand what 61.51 say as sole manipulator of the controls when it comes to logging PIC. However, FAR 1.1 Pilot in command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight

(1) and (2) come into play when you are receiving instruction. The CFI is (1) and (2). If you have an accident or incident, the FAA is using 1 and 2 to hold the CFI as the responsible authority. Does this not make sense?

 

[gkrangers]

gkrangers,

If you log PIC you shouldn't log dual (received). The Total Time should be your Pilot in Command, Second in Command and Dual received. Breaking down conditions is a little different.

That's my point. Guys are logging PIC when receiving instruction from a CFI and logging it as Dual. Or simply not logging the instruction received and logging it all as PIC.

I'm calling every FSDO tomorrow.

 

[minitour]

(1) and (2) come into play when you are receiving instruction. The CFI is (1) and (2). If you have an accident or incident, the FAA is using 1 and 2 to hold the CFI as the responsible authority. Does this not make sense?

Where do the regs say the CFI has to be the Pilot In Command?

If I'm giving instruction to a guy who just bought a Cherokee who is a private pilot with instrument rating and his insurance requires him to have 10 hours with a CFI before going solo...do I have to be PIC?

Nope...I can log PIC...but I do not have to be the PIC.

-mini

PS
gk...if you're serious (and I hope you are - I'd do it but I have to work) could you write down the responses and put them in this or a new thread tomorrow? That should make for some interesting conversation...

 

[atlcrashpad]

Logging time

Let me know what they say. I've posted the answers I got when I called my FSDO (3 guys/2 different answers). I've said in several post that if I'm wrong, I'll admit to it. But resumes that look fishy will still get tossed. So be careful and do a Great Resume.

 

[minitour]

So be careful and do a Great Resume.

I'll second that. I do most of the hiring for us at work and if I ask for a resume or application to be done a certain way, that's the way I want it.

I think that's the big thing...when you go to Airline A...perhaps they will count all of your time. Airline B may say "no glider time allowed" or something like that.

Whatever you do, make sure you show them their way...or you will not get a call.

-mini

 

[atlcrashpad]

Logging time

Whatever you do, make sure you show them their way...or you will not get a call.

-mini[/quote]

That was my main point.

 

[gkrangers]

I'll try to call several tomorrow. Got nothing else to do.

 

[atlcrashpad]

Logging time

gkrangers,

Hopefully you will not get several different answers like I did. Maybe we can finally quit beating this horse to Death. Are you calling your local FSDO or OKC. OKC may be the best bet.

Regardless of the answer(s), do a Great Resume and you will get an interview.

 

[gkrangers]

gkrangers,

Hopefully you will not get several different answers like I did. Maybe we can finally quit beating this horse to Death. Are you calling your local FSDO or OKC. OKC may be the best bet.

Regardless of the answer(s), do a Great Resume and you will get an interview.

Well my Great Resume will be an accurate depiction of my times.

I guess I could call OKC, I was planning on some local ones...Teterboro and Orlando for starters...Those are my "local" ones depending on where I am at a given time.

 

[VNugget]

In order to properly discuss this topic, it's necessary for everyone to be on the same page, and be clear on whether we're talking about meeting legal requirements, (minitour) or applying for jobs (atlcrashpad). Your logbooks can be 100% in compliance with 61.51, but airlines can make up their own definitions at a whim, and well, like someone said earlier, they're doing the hiring. Not the FAA. You either play ball or go home.

The other day, I flew an 8 hour dual received cross country, in which I was the sole manipulator of the controls, was rated in category and class, and was properly endorsed. Am I gonna log that as PIC as well as dual received? Hell yeah! This is 8 hours closer to my 50 hours PIC cross country required for the Instrument rating, and 100 hours PIC for the Commercial. That flight met all the requirements of 61.51, and there's no good reason for me to throw roughly 800 bucks out the window. (I haven't added things up lately, but I'm pretty sure this topped off my aforementioned 50 hours.)

But if I'm applying for an airline years down the road, you bet my PIC will equal total minus dual received minus SIC (if any)... or however they happen to want it.

 

[gkrangers]

But if I'm applying for an airline years down the road, you bet my PIC will equal total minus dual received minus SIC (if any)... or however they happen to want it.

If thats how they want it, its exactly how I'll present it. But for my current logging purposes, I'm meeting Part 61 requirements...and I'll log it as such.