Buffett Bites Back at NetJets Pilot Complaints

[gunfyter]

Prices and wages CHANGE over time.

They are not fixed. The Price of pilots is going up. Way up!

 

[imacdog]

No sir, that is reality.

Again, the minute you accept substandard wages you are the problem. By your own statement, you accepted what you determined to be substandard (or, more charitably, less than what you believe you are worth).

Arguing that I/we will negotiate rates up belies the fact that YOU have already set the bar lower when you started at the lower rate.

It is not about what MAY happen but what HAS happened.

Good luck,
Bob

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that a wage set nearly a decade ago has any relevance on what an acceptable wage is today.

 

[msculley6905]

Sorry to everyone else, but respectfully, WE ARE the industry. We are bigger than all our competitors COMBINED. Whatever we say the industry norms are is what they are, so I don't give a hoot about the NMB says.

I'm confused...is the industry the fractionals, or all aviation companies who fly people for payment? This statement makes it sound like just the frax, so why are there compensation comparisions to the airlines?

 

[gunfyter]

The market for pilots is the same as the market for jet fuel. All flying.

A tsunami is heading this way.

Right now there are people in aviation colleges trying to finish up their ratings but cannot due to a shortage flight instructors who have left for regionals.

Air Force Warns: We Could Run Out of Pilots | Foreign Policy

Pilot eligibility for $225K retention bonus expanded .
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$225K bonus offered to guys that are making about $100K right now... and only about half are accepting it. This is what NJ will have to do if they dilly dally too much longer on this contract negotiation

 

[gunfyter]

Air Force considers larger retention bonuses for...

(wait for it) .... drone pilots

The writing is on the wall.

 

[AV8OR]

No sir, that is reality.

Again, the minute you accept substandard wages you are the problem. By your own statement, you accepted what you determined to be substandard (or, more charitably, less than what you believe you are worth).

Arguing that I/we will negotiate rates up belies the fact that YOU have already set the bar lower when you started at the lower rate.

It is not about what MAY happen but what HAS happened.

Good luck,
Bob

Dude... Just cause you wanna act like a wage you pay is static doesn't make it so. I've seen wages go up and down over the years. The last 8 years companies were able to get pilots for less, now they cannot. When a college football coach is initially hired and produces and his demand goes up, usually he renegotiated his pay. You seem to be hell bent on the idea that whatever wage you initially negotiate for remains static in perpetuity. Wages go up and down based on demand and what is negotiated. I don't know why that's hard to grasp but I'm done explaining it. Carry on.

 

[BobbyBiplane]

You are missing the point. This is not about dynamics, it is about the value you currently place on your service. You, and only you, set that value by your behavior.

Bob

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Sounds like " Work with me now, and I will reward you later." Well that day is soon approaching.

 

[fischman]

I'm confused...is the industry the fractionals, or all aviation companies who fly people for payment? This statement makes it sound like just the frax, so why are there compensation comparisions to the airlines?

It's a matter of perspective. According to WB and JH, the industry is the fractionals. According to me, it's not.

 

[gunfyter]

It's a matter of perspective. According to WB and JH, the industry is the fractionals. According to me, it's not.

Whats the market for IT workers?

Whats the market for Executives?

Is it only the fractional aviation business?

 

[T-1GUY]

Boom!

 

[imacdog]

You are missing the point. This is not about dynamics, it is about the value you currently place on your service. You, and only you, set that value by your behavior.

Bob

I think someone needs to explain to you how contracts work. Not that you'd get it.

 

[realityman]

Everyone needs to relax.

First off, there will be no strike. And if there is, it won't last long. I don't care how much lift is out there to cover our flying, the fact is, our customers don't want it. Do you know what the standard refrain is these days from clients I fly? It's, "I just want what I paid for.". They want THEIR aircraft to show up and fly them. They are tired of getting hosed by Hansell's new program of screwing them over. Far from "acclimating" our clients to being on selloffs, it's pissing them off. If they wanted to be on a chartered flight, they'd simply do it themselves and save a bunch of money. And while they may not care about what we make, or whether our kids can afford college, or how our healthcare is, they DO prefer actual Netjets pilots. The reasons vary from person to person, but it's been born out over and over that overall they really do like us and prefer us.

So all this handwringing over how much extra lift management may be preparing is wrong. I'd personally give a strike/lockout 3 weeks before the EMT will really be feeling the heat. Certainly not enough time to train 1500-2000 pilots to take over.

But most importantly, we will get what we can with available leverage. In other words, we can and WILL have a contract on par with the best legacy carriers if we bring appropriate leverage. I'm not talking about a strike. We have the power RIGHT NOW. And while it's been a bit of a slow process, it appears more and more people are realizing it.

How do any of you doubters and naysayers think Delta, or FedEx or UPS, or American or any of the others got what they have? Do you think they did it by waiting for the beneficence of management to kick in? Did they get it by looking at all the worse jobs out there and saying, "Well, at least we've got it better than them?". Do you think they got it by saying, "Most people out there pay a portion of their healthcare so we should probably expect the same?".

Hell no!! They got it by saying, "This is what we are worth! This is what we DEMAND! And we're going to TAKE IT regardless of what anyone else thinks!!!". Discussing these issues on FI is nothing more than surgery on a cadaver. I don't care what Pilotyip or Msculley or anyone else here thinks about what we have or what we want. I am a pilot for Netjets and I know what we can get, and I have the resolve to get it! If another 2700 pilots joined me, we'd be done with this in a month or two.

And best of all, the bar will be set higher (again) instead of joining the race to the bottom. And whether they will ever acknowledge it or not, all the naysayers here will benefit from our success. Many did from our last contract, and if we're successful they will again.

-RM

 

[Mooneymite]

Everyone needs to relax.

-RM

I disagree. We do not need to relax. Not at all.

Everyone needs to be prepared.

If everyone IS prepared for a strike/lockout, then the probability that one will occur will decrease.

If everyone takes your advice, doesn't prepare his financial/personal affairs, they will be surprised and we can expect a higher percentage of picket crossers simply because we won't allow their families to go hungry.

A good contract is not a slam-dunk, as you would have us believe.

Each of us should be prepared for the worst....and demand the best.

 

[Mooneymite]

Ooops too late to edit.

...simply because we won't allow their families to go hungry.

Should read, "....simply because they won't allow their families to go hungry."

 

[realityman]

I disagree. We do not need to relax. Not at all.

Everyone needs to be prepared.

If everyone IS prepared for a strike/lockout, then the probability that one will occur will decrease.

If everyone takes your advice, doesn't prepare his financial/personal affairs, they will be surprised and we can expect a higher percentage of picket crossers simply because we won't allow their families to go hungry.

A good contract is not a slam-dunk, as you would have us believe.

Each of us should be prepared for the worst....and demand the best.

I didn't say "Don't prepare.", I said "Everyone here relax.".

Big difference.

My point being that NOTHING, not one darn thing, said here on FI has any relevance to what is happening, or will happen, with our negotiations.

It saddens me to see so many people telling us we can't/won't get a CBA on par with the legacy carriers. I have NEVER understood why other pilots don't simply unconditionally wish us well, even if they personally think we'll fail. Even if our success doesn't translate into better pay/conditions at other companies, it means there will be at least one more company out there (Netjets) that is considered top tier. Increasing the number of best compensated flying jobs is good for everyone looking to one day end up at such as place.

And I must reiterate we absolutely don't need to get to a strike to get that great CBA. If every pilot, RIGHT NOW, simply followed the rules (FAR's/CBA/FOM/AOM/CPM/etc...) we'd have this done before the end of summer. Am I speculating? No. Maybe you and others don't believe me, but I've been down this road before, at this very company. What could it hurt to give it a try? Watch what happens when/if daily availability of the fleet drops regularly into the 50th%.

I'm not advocating ANYTHING illegal or unethical. In fact, just the opposite. If you're carrying a write-up "just one more leg to get it to a more convenient place for maintenance" then you're breaking the law. Just stop doing crap like that and see what happens. Same goes for fatigue. No need to abuse the policy. But I run into way too many people who are tired, will even ADMIT to being completely knackered, but feel they should just do one more leg. That's crazy! If folks would simply call fatigued when it's actually needed, EVERY TIME IT'S NEEDED, it would be huge for us. And why on earth do we have people whose crew food doesn't show up but who agree to fly the next 5-hour leg and get the food then? We have a contractual RIGHT to get the food, even if we have to set the parking brake, for when we ordered it. We aren't doing anything suspicious. The whole reason we have the meal deviation language in the CBA is so we aren't flying around without being properly nourished. If the company doesn't like that section they're welcome to talk about it at the negotiating table. Until then, if your food isn't there, go get some. Are you sick? Stop coming to work in a degraded condition and infecting everyone, including the passengers. If you're legitimately sick then the company can go pound sand if they don't like it. We are protected by the FAR's, same as with mechanical problems, for self-certifying each day whether we're well enough to fly or not (this includes mental stress. If a close loved one dies you're probably not in any better condition to fly than if you have the flu).

These are simple, protected actions each one of us can take to get this done. And it doesn't require Pilotyip's approval, or anyone else here. And if we do what we have to, then yes, getting a great new CBA will actually be easy. It'll only be a knock-down drag em out fight if we continue to refuse to bring the leverage we already possess into use.

So yes, relax and just do what needs to be done. People need to not worry about what anyone on FI thinks.

 

[NJAowner]

First off, there will be no strike. And if there is, it won't last long. I don't care how much lift is out there to cover our flying, the fact is, our customers don't want it. Do you know what the standard refrain is these days from clients I fly? It's, "I just want what I paid for.". They want THEIR aircraft to show up and fly them. They are tired of getting hosed by Hansell's new program of screwing them over. Far from "acclimating" our clients to being on selloffs, it's pissing them off. If they wanted to be on a chartered flight, they'd simply do it themselves and save a bunch of money. And while they may not care about what we make, or whether our kids can afford college, or how our healthcare is, they DO prefer actual Netjets pilots. The reasons vary from person to person, but it's been born out over and over that overall they really do like us and prefer us.

Realityman, that is all correct .. but it is not complete. The last line may read something like:

However, most owners have an anti-union predisposition and recall being negatively impacted, directly or indirectly, in the past by union activities. This may cause a majority (but not all) owners to relate to what the EMT is going through with regard to the union and may be willing to endure some problems "for the greater good" (as defined by NetJets).

 

[T-1GUY]

I would say, I am sorry for the inconvenience to the owners. I really like flying the majority of them and thank you for flying Netjets. The bottom line is you will not have my experience in the cockpit unless I am payed accordingly for the professional services I provide.

You get what you pay for....

 

[Mooneymite]

And I must reiterate we absolutely don't need to get to a strike to get that great CBA.

We hope there is no strike....obviously.

However, we must be mentally, emotionally, financially and socially prepared and committed to strike.

If the company senses anything less, we better be mentally, emotionally, financially and socially prepared for a "POS-contract".

I think you do a dis-service to our efforts by down-playing the possiblity of a strike/lockout. ("Everyone needs to relax.")

This is not a time for members to "relax".

 

[msculley6905]

It's a matter of perspective. According to WB and JH, the industry is the fractionals. According to me, it's not.

Ok...in a previous post, you said NJ is the industry and larger than our compeditors combined. Now I know you dont think we're bigger than all the airlines combined...

I'll try again....is the industry the frax, or all of aviation?

 

[msculley6905]

Originally Posted by fischman View Post
Sorry to everyone else, but respectfully, WE ARE the industry. We are bigger than all our competitors COMBINED. Whatever we say the industry norms are is what they are, so I don't give a hoot about the NMB says

I'm confused...is the industry the fractionals, or all aviation companies who fly people for payment? This statement makes it sound like just the frax, so why are there compensation comparisions to the airlines?

For refrence to the above post...

 

[gunfyter]

What do you think?

For Pilot compensation purposes.

We are Airline Transport Pilots... what is our Industry?

It is the sum of all carriers that transport people for payment.
----------------------------------------


It is the company that stated we are paid better than our competitors. The company's competitors for Customers is the Frax industry.

But the company's competitors for PILOTS is ALL companies employing ATPs.


NJ is in competition with the Airlines when it comes to pilot labor

 

[NJAowner]

I agree with GF that the market is "ATP pilots".

 

[msculley6905]

What do you think?

For Pilot compensation purposes.

We are Airline Transport Pilots... what is our Industry?

It is the sum of all carriers that transport people for payment.
----------------------------------------


It is the company that stated we are paid better than our competitors. The company's competitors for Customers is the Frax industry.

But the company's competitors for PILOTS is ALL companies employing ATPs.


NJ is in competition with the Airlines when it comes to pilot labor

I agree with what you say, but wouldnt ATPs be more of a market, not an industry?

 

[gunfyter]

I agree with what you say, but wouldnt ATPs be more of a market, not an industry?

I don't know. I thought the purpose of the question was to analyze what kind of pay scale the pilots should be shooting for...

I think NJ will be losing a lot of our FO's very soon. To replace them ... well all military guys are being hired by airlines. No airlines are furloughing and no regional airline pilots will make a move to NJ. Thats where NJ got pilots in the past. Military, Airline furloughs and retirees, and Regionals.

These sources are not really available to NJA this time.

 

[Mooneymite]

I talked to an FO the other day who has his apps out to the airlines. He was telling me that he had plenty of hours and type ratings, but his lack of recent turbine PIC was hurting him. He's been SIC for almost 9 years.

If this is the case, NetJets might not be seeing a mass exodus from the co-pilot ranks. OTH, the PIC's have so much time invested, they don't want to start at the bottom.

 

[imacdog]

First off, there will be no strike. And if there is, it won't last long. I don't care how much lift is out there to cover our flying, the fact is, our customers don't want it. Do you know what the standard refrain is these days from clients I fly? It's, "I just want what I paid for.". They want THEIR aircraft to show up and fly them. They are tired of getting hosed by Hansell's new program of screwing them over. Far from "acclimating" our clients to being on selloffs, it's pissing them off. If they wanted to be on a chartered flight, they'd simply do it themselves and save a bunch of money. And while they may not care about what we make, or whether our kids can afford college, or how our healthcare is, they DO prefer actual Netjets pilots. The reasons vary from person to person, but it's been born out over and over that overall they really do like us and prefer us.

Realityman, that is all correct .. but it is not complete. The last line may read something like:

However, most owners have an anti-union predisposition and recall being negatively impacted, directly or indirectly, in the past by union activities. This may cause a majority (but not all) owners to relate to what the EMT is going through with regard to the union and may be willing to endure some problems "for the greater good" (as defined by NetJets).

Hold on a tick. Most owners know it is the mismanagement of this company, not the pilots, that has been screwing them of late. The pilots are the only group holding this place together.

 

[gunfyter]

I talked to an FO the other day who has his apps out to the airlines. He was telling me that he had plenty of hours and type ratings, but his lack of recent turbine PIC was hurting him. He's been SIC for almost 9 years.

If this is the case, NetJets might not be seeing a mass exodus from the co-pilot ranks. OTH, the PIC's have so much time invested, they don't want to start at the bottom.

I think airlines will relax the PIC time requirement. 2 Falcon sics just left for United. I am not sure they had much pic time.

Also PICs are also looking at airlines... but also Corporate gigs. One told me about a Global gig at LAX $290K work 5 days a month

 

[gunfyter]

The pilots are the only group holding this place together.

I wouldn't say that. A lot of people are holding it together... just not ... well you know who.

 

[FamilyGuy]

I wouldn't say that. A lot of people are holding it together... just not ... well you know who.

Well said