Buffett Bites Back at NetJets Pilot Complaints

[CA1900]

Under Obamacare, the NetJets healthcare plan is classified as a cadillac plan...

That is absolutely incorrect, according to the company rep who came into a recent recurrent "training" class. She explained that, in the future, it may fall in that category. But today, it is definitely not a "Cadillac plan."

 

[pilotyip]

The price I gave was blood, two wars, and over a decade going wherever Uncle Sam wanted me at his whim to defend this country 24/7 365 days a week.

Any basic ATP with 1500 hours can fly point A to B. It's when the ******************** hits the fan you get what you pay for.

Thank you for your service, I only did one war, if you don't count the big Cold One and standing 1 hour alert on a dozen different islands around the world.

BTW: But it does not take decades to become a NJ pilot see above, the experience in the on-demand business is well beyond basic ATP

"Yea I know guys who came to USA Jet with 500 hours and a COMM/ME/INS. They flew aged out airplanes for 1/2 of a decade (5 years) made decent money, got a TJ type rating and an ATP at no cost to them then got hired at NJ"

 

[PCL_128]

Anyone who thinks the NMB is going to be sympathetic with a labor group demanding to pay nothing towards their health insurance premiums is kidding himself.

 

[Diesel]

While I currently support the unionized employees in their negotiations with NetJets, it's arrogant and condescending statements like this that make it hard to do so.

You would be well served to put the attitude away and develop some humility. You are exhibiting the same attitude and demeanor to your fellow employees that Jordan is exhibiting towards the employees. You need allies in this fight, not more enemies.
　

This is one area of the negotiations where you are seriously misguided.

Almost everyone in the US now pays for a portion of their health care expenses. Under Obamacare, the NetJets healthcare plan is classified as a cadillac plan and will be subject to additional taxes because it is so generous.

You are advocating that NetJets pay these additional taxes to the government so you can continue to get your gold plated health plan?

I don't know about you, but I personally hate paying more taxes than I have to.

With that in mind, if I were in your shoes, I'd be advocating for a position where the union modifies its health plan to avoid the additional taxes under obamacare and then redirecting the dollars saved on the health care plan to other non taxable benefits for the members. It would be neutral to NetJets and beneficial to the members.

Sticking your head in the sand and saying I will never pay for healthcare reminds me of the auto unions who refused to recognize economic realities until their company filed for bankruptcy.

You're not in my shoes. You never will be in my shoes. So that makes that pretty simple. You're wrong on the cadilac tax plan but you're listening to what the company is telling you.

Your argument holds no water. Because everyone else is paying for it doesn't mean it's right or the best course of action. It means they let the camel's nose under the tent earlier than everyone else.

You think if we save the company money on healthcare we're going to see that in our checks? You're kidding yourself.

In the end though what you feel about the pilots isn't going to change the way we negotiate, what we get paid, or the work rules we work under.

You keep saying we need allies but you're telling us we should take less because you have to. Hmmmm

 

[Diesel]

Great attitude. You should lead with that and put it on the picket signs at the next event. I'm sure it will strike just the right chord.

Yes, you have a skill set, and a more advanced one than some other people, but it is still just a skill set, and you shouldn't be denigrating other people's contribution to the finished product. Much like you wouldn't want me flying the plane, we probably wouldn't want you fixing the planes, or doing the scheduling or the accounting. Everyone contributes their own unique skill set and the finished product is better with everyone focusing on their specialty.

That said, companies focus their resources on solving the biggest, most intransigent and expensive problems. Automation is coming for many professions and I'm amazed at how far drones and self driving cars have come in the last ten years. They aren't ready for prime time yet, but I'm willing to bet they will in my lifetime.

I had a long post then I realized in the end, you don't vote on our contract so what's the point.

 

[Diesel]

Thank you for your service, I only did one war, if you don't count the big Cold One and standing 1 hour alert on a dozen different islands around the world.

BTW: But it does not take decades to become a NJ pilot see above, the experience in the on-demand business is well beyond basic ATP

"Yea I know guys who came to USA Jet with 500 hours and a COMM/ME/INS. They flew aged out airplanes for 1/2 of a decade (5 years) made decent money, got a TJ type rating and an ATP at no cost to them then got hired at NJ"

Don't feed the troll.

He's bummed he keeps having to go to the CFI pool to find pilots, or hope that some corp/fractional/ariline goes bust and someone is knocking on his door.

He's not just a bottom feeder, he is the bottom.

 

[T-1GUY]

Thank you for your service, I only did one war, if you don't count the big Cold One and standing 1 hour alert on a dozen different islands around the world.

BTW: But it does not take decades to become a NJ pilot see above, the experience in the on-demand business is well beyond basic ATP

"Yea I know guys who came to USA Jet with 500 hours and a COMM/ME/INS. They flew aged out airplanes for 1/2 of a decade (5 years) made decent money, got a TJ type rating and an ATP at no cost to them then got hired at NJ"

I appreciate your service as well.

The largest segment of Captains at Netjets are in their mid to late forties. I dare say that they have about two decades worth of flying experience under their belt. Due to the nature of the job, and the environment that they operate in, they have become highly competent experienced operators by this point in their career. Can you get hired with less experience, sure. I would say this is the exception to the rule. Those low time new hires will be mentored and gain experience. There is also a large population of FO's who were furloughed or retired with several decades of experience.

The majors are in full hire mode. Netjets is losing a lot of highly experienced operators. If my family was in the back of one of these airplanes, I would prefer and expect the gray hair guys up front, not the kids fresh out of school.

I expect to be paid for my experience. Good luck to the Netjet pilots. They deserve a large raise and better working conditions.

 

[ghostrider64]

FG...time to research what the company is telling you. The reality is we won't now or ever trigger additional taxes to the company's although they have been feeding you that for two years now, and it's the pilots fault.

Secondly, if you don't think we already subsidize the company's healthcare plane, then you should pay me the over $10,000 I've paid out of pocket the past 5 years. You do know the company is "self insured" correct? So in essence I've paid the company and for my "insurance" that $10k.

Third, my fight isn't in large part about money, mine is about the QOL that has diminished since the advent of computerized scheduling, computerized booking of hotels, and computerized triggering of intimidating pilot "firing squads"!!!!

Lastly we hear that pilots are now shadowing floor people in CMH. I'd love for you to shadow us sometime. My guess,mis you couldn't take it very long before you started crying uncle!

Pisses me off when people call BS on pilots from a cozy desk in a temperature controlled environment, eating the meal of their choosing, at a time of their choosing, while I'm up to my ass in snow, in Thunder Bay with ramp temps at -40 C, at 3am having gone to bed at 6pm, all while trying to find my sixth PB and J for the week. And in case you forgotten, I do that daily over 180 days a year....you're welcome for me generating enough profits for you to have a great job and life.

 

[Semore Butts]

FG, I'm with Ghostrider, T-1 and the rest.

The truth of the matter is we are trying to save this company we help build. We are trying to improve not only our way of life, but, yours as well.

The corporate culture we are under now is horrible. If we don't change it I'm afraid we are all gonna be out on the streets.

I know you are on board, the written word on these boards often gets confused.

Take care, Semore

 

[FLYLOW22]

Netjets stole the PR show yesterday, or more appropriately NJASAP did. All the "buzz" was about the picketers.

Last count was over 400 showed up, including a few Flops guys. Thank you for doing so.

Buffett had to do more damage control after his 50th gala than any other year on record. That's embarrassing. If Warren champions anything more than $70 billion dollars it's the brand.

Well, the brand took a direct hit and it's only the beginning.

I mean, how do you keep pilots from walking into a shareholder event when the ARE shareholders?

He'd better get with the pilots and learn to work with them...

Or Jordy, Warren and Munger can fly those new shiny jets Hansell seems to fancy.

Airplanes do not make money.

Pilots can cost you even more if treated poorly... Or they can make you more than a man can ever count.

Even Warren.

 

[FLYLOW22]

No really, I have no intention to give concession to a company that is so profitable. WB endorsed Obama, he can pay the Obamacare taxes personally for all I care.

Or was it to allow BNSF to haul oil instead of building a pipeline that would have created more jobs and cheaper oil??

BNSF had a train of crude detail and explode today.

Oops.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Anyone who thinks the NMB is going to be sympathetic with a labor group demanding to pay nothing towards their health insurance premiums is kidding himself.

Why?

That's what we have now.

Status quo.

 

[PCL_128]

Why?

That's what we have now.

Status quo.

Yes, and the company is seeking a change that would bring it more in line with industry norms. The NMB will find that argument compelling, and won't be likely to release you as long as you hold on to that demand.

 

[FamilyGuy]

The truth of the matter is we are trying to save this company we help build. We are trying to improve not only our way of life, but, yours as well.

The corporate culture we are under now is horrible. If we don't change it I'm afraid we are all gonna be out on the streets.

I know you are on board, the written word on these boards often gets confused.

Take care, Semore

Semore - I get that. More than most. In my opinion, the biggest concern to all the employees is how Jordan and the current EMT are systematically dismantling what was once a great company. The other issues are peripheral in nature.

I couldn't agree more with your point on the corporate culture. It's the worst I've ever seen and steadily going lower. The EMT is riding on the coattails of the reputation that RTS built, but you have to wonder how long that will last.

All I was trying to do is give some constructive advice on how your message is being received. There are better ways to get the point across. The other employees may not have a vote on any pilot agreement, but their support in your fight is helpful, whether some see it or not.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Yes, and the company is seeking a change that would bring it more in line with industry norms. The NMB will find that argument compelling, and won't be likely to release you as long as you hold on to that demand.

Ok.

It's collective bargaining.

They want something we have.

What are you offering? Oh, a pay cut.

Um, no!

RLMFAO!!!!

We'll take whatever Delta has. The entire contract.

That's a good norm and still a good deal for them.

Smh.

 

[PCL_128]

We'll take whatever Delta has. The entire contract.

Prepare to never get a contract and never get released, then. I'm not saying it's right, but I am saying that's how it is. Welcome to the world of dealing with the RLA and the NMB.

 

[T-1GUY]

Prepare for the airplanes to never leave the ground....

 

[FLYLOW22]

Prepare to never get a contract and never get released, then. I'm not saying it's right, but I am saying that's how it is. Welcome to the world of dealing with the RLA and the NMB.

Given the state of this pilot group.

That's a bet to take.

The shareholders were VERY supportive.

 

[PCL_128]

Given the state of this pilot group.

That's a bet to take.

The shareholders were VERY supportive.

Talk to me in five years when you're still waiting on a deal.

 

[Mooneymite]

Prepare to never get a contract and never get released, then.

That can cut both ways....if Hansell's mission is to get rid of all the unions at NetJets, management will be pushing to be released to "self help" where a non-negotiated contract will be presented to those pilots who wish to continue to work, the rest of us will be locked out.

If that's Hansell's plan, I suspect there is also a plan to keep NetJets going while our replacements are hired and trained.

It could get real ugly, real fast.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Talk to me in five years when you're still waiting on a deal.

I won't be here in 5 years if still waiting.

Nor will the majority.

Good luck.

There aren't enough replacements that can do what we do.

Without bad headlines. I mean bad.

I feel like Kermit the Frog here...

 

[PCL_128]

That can cut both ways....if Hansell's mission is to get rid of all the unions at NetJets, management will be pushing to be released to "self help" where a non-negotiated contract will be presented to those pilots who wish to continue to work, the rest of us will be locked out.

If that's Hansell's plan, I suspect there is also a plan to keep NetJets going while our replacements are hired and trained.

It could get real ugly, real fast.

The Board is unlikely to release you, regardless of whether the request is from the union or the company, unless they believe that a deal is likely to result during the cooling off period. The Board doesn't view the release as a way to a strike or a lockout, but rather as a way to encourage a deal when the parties are close. If you're fighting over stuff like this, they're unlikely to release you even if Hansell is the one who is pushing it. In fact, the current Board leans pro-labor rather than pro-company, so they won't much care what Hansell wants. What they care about is avoiding strikes and lockouts.

 

[acaTerry]

No really, I have no intention to give concession to a company that is so profitable. WB endorsed Obama, he can pay the Obamacare taxes personally for all I care.

Oh you have a beer coming. You name it, you got it.

 

[Hawkered]

That can cut both ways....if Hansell's mission is to get rid of all the unions at NetJets, management will be pushing to be released to "self help" where a non-negotiated contract will be presented to those pilots who wish to continue to work, the rest of us will be locked out.

If that's Hansell's plan, I suspect there is also a plan to keep NetJets going while our replacements are hired and trained.

It could get real ugly, real fast.

There is no way that background checks, simulator slots, IOE nor anything as simple as using a fire extinguisher to jumping through a cabin trainer could be done quickly enough to break a strike.

 

[pilotyip]

There is no way that background checks, simulator slots, IOE nor anything as simple as using a fire extinguisher to jumping through a cabin trainer could be done quickly enough to break a strike.

Somethign I agree with, sim time is aslmost impposible to get rigth now without the impact of replacing 100's of pilots.

 

[T-1GUY]

Spell checkers are in short supply as well

 

[FraxJockey]

Somethign I agree with, sim time is aslmost impposible to get rigth now without the impact of replacing 100's of pilots.

There is already another way....it's called the competition.

 

[pilotyip]

Spell checkers are in short supply as well

See a college degeree has nothing to do with being able to speel

 

[BlueNose]

There is no way that background checks, simulator slots, IOE nor anything as simple as using a fire extinguisher to jumping through a cabin trainer could be done quickly enough to break a strike.

No, but there will be enough sell-off lift available to cover the trips. EJM, TMC and other 3rd parties, and don't forget Options/Flex fly charter through KR's broker company. And you can't count on the Options/Flex pilots spiking the trips - they won't even know these are NJ owners they're flying. It'll just say Mr & Mrs Smith or XYZ Corp on the manifest. NJ's not the operator in the case of a sell-off, they just act as a charter broker, to the crew never need know where it came from. And you can be sure the pax will be briefed not to reveal it, either, if they don't want a departure time break.

So in the event of a strike, a Frax pilot union has even less leverage than an airline union. At least with an airline, lost trips = 100% lost revenue. With a Frax, monthly management fees are still coming in, the company just loses the hourly trip charges. That'll still be an expensive proposition for NJ, but if they're determined to break a strike and Hansell has WB convinced that it's a cost saver long-term, they'll probably be willing to burn cash for a while. As already stated, could get real ugly, real fast.

 

[Mooneymite]

The Board is unlikely to release you, regardless of whether the request is from the union or the company, unless they believe that a deal is likely to result during the cooling off period.

I disagree with your assessment.

The reason that we are under the NRLA is the government does not want a strike/labor striff to interfere with national interests/commerce. A nationwide railroad, or airline strike could have major impact on the economy/national defence, etc.

NetJets is a tiny operation. If it is permanently grounded it would have virtually no effect on the national economy. Warren Buffet could ride on Southwest, or a part 135 jet.

I suspect the NMB will get a little political pressure from the money-boys and NetJets will be released quickly and we will be locked out sooner than anyone is even guessing.

We are definitely better off preparing for a lockout rather than discounting it out of hand.

If Hansell gets 20% of the NetJets pilots to accept his terms (lots of money to be made by those who cross the picket line!), he can limp along with sell-offs and contract pilots (even EJM pilots on their off days) for long enough to hire and train our replacements. Generally NetJets' customers are not pro-union and will be quite patient if they think it will get rid of those "awful unions".

The key to a successful strike/lockout situation is the savings of the individual NetJets pilots (that's you and me!). If you haven't got savings that will last you and your family for 6 months, you need to. We'll need 100% of the pilots on our side of the picket line.

If the lockout doesn't happen, you've built up a nice nest-egg and gotten your financial house in order. Start saving!