Both Mesa GO! pilots fall asleep during flight

[acaTerry]

"wake me up when I made $22.50"....

 

[waveflyer]

Are you guys really trashing pilots for falling asleep on a Mesa schedule?

This has happened before- and everyone would be better served if they look at the scheduling practices that caused it rather than automatically throwing the pilots under the bus. This was bound to happen- and i'm glad it's getting as much press as it is-

 

[Taildraggaah]

"wake me up when I made $22.50"....

Best post yet...

 

[FishandFly]

Are you guys really trashing pilots for falling asleep on a Mesa schedule?

This has happened before- and everyone would be better served if they look at the scheduling practices that caused it rather than automatically throwing the pilots under the bus. This was bound to happen- and i'm glad it's getting as much press as it is-

I wasn't part of the crowd trashing the pilots, but yes, it is blatantly their own fault. If they were that tired it was their responsibility to call in fatigued. Thankfully they were in cruise and didn't kill anyone.

 

[waveflyer]

Maybe they're screw offs- knowing mesa- maybe not-
I'd bet you've never worked for a jack off company that schedules you right to your 'reg' limits over and over and over again- if you called in fatigued every time you actually were-you'd rarely fly and i guarantee you'd have your job in jeopardy. With most of the pilot group looking to move on, fighting for their time, and not wanting a blemished record, most will choose to ignore the affects on their body- it's a systemic problem that most pilots won't call in fatigued when they really are. I look at those schedules- and by your logic- at least 1/2 of the seniority list should call in fatigued once a month. There are places, like netjets, that actively encourage calling in fatigued- but they also have a system in place to prevent it in the first place... Mesa is not that. They put lots of pressure on the pilots to fly unsustainable schedules- and then fall back on the "it's your responsibility to call in" line. Which is all it is- a line to tell the media and gov't if they ball one in.

Bottom line. I'm way more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to the pilots, than to believe that mesa was having them fly a safe, sustainable schedule.

 

[Salty Dog]

I blame the TSA. Without a little hottie to bounce in every so often asking "coffee, tea, or milk?" what's there to stay awake for?

Oops, I must've been dozing myself. Hottie, haggard old crone...whatever.

 

[FishandFly]

Maybe they're screw offs- knowing mesa- maybe not-
I'd bet you've never worked for a jack off company that schedules you right to your 'reg' limits over and over and over again- if you called in fatigued every time you actually were-you'd rarely fly and i guarantee you'd have your job in jeopardy. With most of the pilot group looking to move on, fighting for their time, and not wanting a blemished record, most will choose to ignore the affects on their body- it's a systemic problem that most pilots won't call in fatigued when they really are. I look at those schedules- and by your logic- at least 1/2 of the seniority list should call in fatigued once a month. There are places, like netjets, that actively encourage calling in fatigued- but they also have a system in place to prevent it in the first place... Mesa is not that. They put lots of pressure on the pilots to fly unsustainable schedules- and then fall back on the "it's your responsibility to call in" line. Which is all it is- a line to tell the media and gov't if they ball one in.

Bottom line. I'm way more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to the pilots, than to believe that mesa was having them fly a safe, sustainable schedule.

Can you name another profession that holds peoples lives in it's hands where the expectations for completing the job/task safely are decreased because you are tired?

The basic expectation placed on pilots is to not fall asleep in flight. Is that too much to ask?

In the same sense, if you fly for a company that has non-airworthy aircraft, is it acceptable for the pilot group to fly them anyway?

I think not.

 

[waveflyer]

You might not be a moron, but you are proving that you've never had to deal with a schedule like that over a long period of time. I've had a lot of schedules that i could handle for a few months- hell- even 6 months to a year.... but it does catch up to you. And when every line at your employer is built like that- you're young and don't quite know where your limits are just yet, where they send you to the chief pilot if you call in 'fatigued', the union is backed up w/ unanswered grievances, and you've been flying it for a while- It's naive to think that this kind of thing won't happen. A HUGE amount of flying is done at Mesa by very very tired pilots every day.

Again- it is a judgement call- and every pilot is responsible. That responsibility is what i like about this career. But it's a systemic problem at places like Mesa. And i won't minimize their responsibility to not pressure young kids into flying unsafe and unsustainable schedules...
Go work there and tell me in a year that Mesa's schedules shouldn't be more regulated.

 

[waveflyer]

That being said, i encourage every Mesa pilot to PLEASE DO CALL IN FATIGUED WHEN THEY SCHEDULE YOU IN CRAZY WAYS. It's not just about how much you've been flying. It's about reversing your sleep schedule, not enough ways to exercise at hotels and throughout the day- breaking up your sleep (all-nighters/stand-ups/high speeds), junior manning so you can't plan to get rest- and emotionally not able to sleep b/c you have to cancel plans....again(!)- all of these things every pilot can handle for a bit. But over the long haul- they take their toll. When i got to the major airlines = i saw my blood pressure drop 25 points... It does affect your health. It's not a myth. It's not about being tough. The body has it's limits and there are healthy schedules and unhealthy ones.

You want a 121 example-- look at southwest- They fly as much or more than anyone... but in a sustainable way. The schedules are very efficient which leads to adequate time to sleep and exercise and blow off steam socially on layovers- This also leads to more days off- typically 3 on, 4 off. That extra day means so much to your health. Schedule consistency- if you do a PM show in the beginning of the month=- you only do PM shows for that month. No staying up til midnight and then having to reverse your sleep schedule to wake up at 4am on the east coast a day or two later. It's about long-term health=- Southwest does a lot of things that are just smart- but this is one of them... they know that if they don't wreck their pilots- they will be more productive for them... Win-Win-- a novel concept in the airlines.

 

[Poahi]

That being said, i encourage every Mesa pilot to PLEASE DO CALL IN FATIGUED WHEN THEY SCHEDULE YOU IN CRAZY WAYS. iT

Good advice.

With that in mind, however, there has not been a single airline accident caused by fatigue.

Because of this, it's going to be an up hill battle to make any kind of meaningful change. Forget that ALPA is fighting the fatigue issue, the FAA won't even take the recommendations of the NTSB. I mean, come on, if the government agency that investigates smoking holes can't persuade the FAA and Congress to change the rules, what's the possibility that it's going to change?

Safety isn't a culture, it's an expense. It's cheaper to have a few accidents now and then, than it is to increase staffing.The average person is worth between $3 and $4 Million and between blame shifting and other factors, it works for the airlines. There aren't enough crashes right now for a change.

 

[OB-CPO]

Good advice.

With that in mind, however, there has not been a single airline accident caused by fatigue.

What about AA in Little Rock?

 

[Fly2Scuba]

With that in mind, however, there has not been a single airline accident caused by fatigue.

Such a blanket statement of fact should be true before you type it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/24/AR2006012401580.html

And that is just the first time the NTSB has officially recognized fatigue as a factor. American Airlines Little Rock - crew was near end of duty day. I won't research every other accident, but I'd wager thousands that fatigue was an issue on many of them.

I think at this point anyone who flies for Mesa has chosen poorly. The less pilots willing to fly for them equals a better industry.

 

[Poahi]

What about AA in Little Rock?

Here's your answer:

The flight crew's failure to discontinue the approach when severe thunderstorms and their associated hazards to flight operations had moved into the airport area and the crew's failure to ensure that the spoilers had extended after touchdown.

Contributing to the accident were the flight crew's (1) impaired performance resulting from fatigue and the situational stress associated with the intent to land under the circumstances, (2) continuation of the approach to a landing when the company's maximum crosswind component was exceeded, and (3) use of reverse thrust greater than 1.3 engine pressure ratio after landing.

Source: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X18961&key=1

 

[Poahi]

Such a blanket statement of fact should be true before you type it.

It is true. Read the report.

Fatigue contributed to the accident, but didn't cause it. That's the point I've been trying to make - and that's one of the key reasons the rules aren't likely to change anytime soon.

Had the Mesa guys flown in to Mauna Kea, been on reduced rest, up against a 30/7 conflict and had been bullied by the company to continue flying with the threat of being terminated, we could be looking at Congressional hearings. Short of that, we all have to draw our own lines in the sand.

 

[waveflyer]

And that's why releasing scope is a bad thing. We really need "time building" to be going on for as short a period as possible... At a major- you call in- at a regional... you're pressured and you don't want the blemish on your record b/c you're trying to get to a major.

 

[OB-CPO]

It is true. Read the report.

Fatigue contributed to the accident, but didn't cause it.

Fatigue was #1 of several contributing factors.

I guess we have to wait for Mesa to sink or crater an entire hull out here don't we.

 

[waveflyer]

No- and this is a case in point. I am very glad that fatigue is getting press w/o a hole in the ground and i can be happy about that w/o calling the pilots unprofessional like some were doing. There have been other cases of pilots overflying airports b/c they've been asleep- just didn't get the press- write this journalist if you know of one.

 

[Poahi]

I guess we have to wait for Mesa to sink or crater an entire hull out here don't we.

I don't think that will make a big difference either. The AA accident didn't.

Remember when JetBlue wanted to do transcon out and backs? They actually got to try it out. American used to 'under block' their Dallas - Honolulu flights to save on staffing and got away with it for a while.

If anything, the FAA has been bending the wrong way. They have been on record saying the current rules are 'safe'. As for Mesa in Hawaii, ironically, scheduled rest isn't as much an issue as it is on the mainland.

Please, continue bashing.

 

[greyhound]

Long layovers with awkward showtimes can be just as bad as short layovers with no time to rest.

 

[WSurf]

Yea, going from AM reports then finishing late can really play on your sleep patter.

We are having this problem at my airline. Start you out on the first day early and then on the 3rd or 4th day you are bringing in the terminator.

You are getting the required rest, but it screws with your sleep clock.

ps. problem can be helped by consuming your favorite beverage to help aid in the sleeping process.

 

[Soverytired]

Y

ps. problem can be helped by consuming your favorite beverage to help aid in the sleeping process.

Ok, I know this was meant in jest, but in point of fact, alcohol inhibits R.E.M. sleep, especially deep R.E.M. sleep, so if your sleep-time is short, alcohol induced sleep is counter-productive.

Just an FYI from someone who knows WAY too much about not getting enough sleep on the stand-ups.

 

[Soverytired]

I wasn't part of the crowd trashing the pilots, but yes, it is blatantly their own fault. If they were that tired it was their responsibility to call in fatigued. Thankfully they were in cruise and didn't kill anyone.

Although not specifically defending this Mesa crew, it's not always quite so easy to "call in fatigued".


Remember, you cannot "forecast fatigue" . . even though I guarantee you that many of these schedules Mesa writes (outside the islands) are obviously fatigue inducing, the actual "fatigue event" doesn't occur until actually airborne. Usually around 0230, or on the last leg of the morning when heading back to base.

Don't blame the crews. Blame the company for writing these jacked up schedules, because in-flight fatigue is entirely predictable. Except YOU'RE not allowed to predict fatigue.

 

[waveflyer]

Long layovers with awkward showtimes can be just as bad as short layovers with no time to rest.

This is a good point.
Why i like WN's keeping the schedules consistent.

I actually think JB's transcon out and backs would help w/ fatigue=- Think- 11 hours of flight time in a 12 hour duty day would mean that you could avoid a long layover w/ a 3 hour time change- You'd get 22 hours in 2 days w/ a 12 hour break in between. 2 on 5 off! That would be too nice. that kind of schedule would not be worse than 15hour days, multiple legs on 8hours flight time. I've always thought they should keep the week/month/yearly flying maxes- and then only limit the time on duty in a day-

I don't care how much i fly in a day- it's the DUTY time, # of legs, and the wierd sleep schedules that fatigue me. JB got crucified for that experiment- but noone's talking about the 15 hour days and constant reversing of sleep schedules.

 

[go!ng for broke]

Mesa/GO! pilots admitted being asleep after incident. Capt. had history of sleeping in cockpit. Next up @ 6pm, Drug test results.

 

[topdawg]

I am so sorry to hear that 2 GO! pilots lost their job. I was hoping it was all of mesa's pilots!

 

[Lance Uppercut]

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ASH1002/history/20080213/1929Z/PHNL/PHTO

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Soverytired]

.....

 

[dash8driver]

Mesa/GO! pilots admitted being asleep after incident. Capt. had history of sleeping in cockpit. Next up @ 6pm, Drug test results.

Really? I'd love to see that article please.

http://kgmb9.com/main/content/view/5870/169

KGMB9 Confirms Go! Pilots Asleep Written by Stacy Loe - [email protected] April 25, 2008 12:00 AM

We knew it was a possibility. And tonight we have confirmation.

The two go! Airlines pilots who overshot their destination and failed to respond to air traffic controllers, did in fact fall asleep in the cockpit.

Sources tell KGMB9 News, the pilots admitted dozing off in interviews with National Transportation Safety Board investigators. Sources say the pilots told investigators they were worn out, but thought they were okay to fly that day.

"This is a very serious situation," said Peter Forman, airline analyst.

For nearly 20 minutes on February 13th, air traffic controllers tried to contact the pilots on flight 1002 and received no response.

A radar track shows the plane overshot the Hilo airport by 15 miles and headed out to sea, before turning around and landing safely.

KGMB9 News has confirmed both pilots admitted they fell asleep in the cockpit.

"That makes me kind of nervous, scared that I was on that flight. We went past the location were were supposed to go to. We could have just ran out of gas in the air or anything could have happened," said King Whetstone, a passenger on flight 1002.

Sources say the captain, a 16 year veteran, also confessed he has fallen asleep in mid-air before.

We've learned, after the incident he was admitted to Standford Medical Center, where he was diagnosed with a severe case of sleep apnea.

"Certaintly that is an individual problem with one pilot but you have 2 pilots on board. The other pilot should have been able to stay awake," said Forman.

Sources tell KGMB9 tests show the pilots had no alcohol, narcotics or prescription drugs in their systems.

So why did they both nod off? One possible factor. We've learned they flew together 2 days before and on those flights, the autopilot on the plane wasn't working. So they had to use manual controls.

"There's a lot more fatigue taking place when you are hand flying the airplane. It takes a lot of concentration to hold altitude in a jet because it wants to go up and down," explained Forman.

Go's parent company - Mesa - fired the pilots last week. And sources reveal they were let go for not reporting the incident to the company right away.

"I think that's a way the airline says we are going to get rid of the problem of these two pilots but we are not going to admit any guilt. So it's putting it all on the pilots," said Forman.

Mesa had no comment on these new developments.

For years, pilots with the company have complained about exhausting schedules and staffing shortages. In 2007, nearly half of its pilots quit.

"So we not only have a problem with fatigue but we also have a problem with a lack of experience in the cockpit and those two factors, fatigue and lack of experience that's a potentionally dangerous combination and someone should look at this carefully," said Forman.

The N-T-S-B won't comment until it's report is released. But we've learned its focusing a significant portion of it's investigation into pilot fatigue, a big problem in the industry. Last Updated ( April 25, 2008 01:24 AM )

 

[Soverytired]

Confirmation from unnamed "sources". Nice. And remember, the press is never, ever wrong.

Doesn't look good though. The captain apparently had a medical condition. Apparently the "sources" didn't get the details from the fo . . . although he's certainly looking like the biggest goat in all this.

And yeah, they should have told the company. THAT was indefensible and chicken-sit. However . . . I understand it. And unless you're a perfect pilot, you do as well.

I'll wait for the NTSB report. I hope like hell this spurs some regulatory changes.

 

[dash8driver]

dont get your hopes up. the ntsb has a list of things (including fatigue) that the FAA has been ignoring for a while.