Both Mesa GO! pilots fall asleep during flight

[V1 Rotate]

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ASH1002/history/20080213/1925Z/PHNL/PHTO

 

[skyguy40]

I was talking to the FAA yesterday and ask questions regarding long duty times because of safety. Why are we having so much trouble lowering the max time you could be on duty. As he agreed that it has gone on too long and he was on our side, he said Washington told them to back off from this issue as these are hard economic times and the Airlines would not be able to handle this hardship. His advice was to support ALPA. They are the only voice we have. So there you have it. It cost too much to be that safe.

 

[SpyFlysDOTs]

Purely for entertainment, as that is why some of us come to these parts, right?

http://golfdevil.co.uk/hawaii.wav

 

[Trash8Mofo]

deleted

 

[dash8driver]

(Remember, No one got hurt, no equipment was damaged, and no loss of separation occurred. People will be punished. Big. Frikin. Deal.)

nice....isnt this the same excuse the FAA and ATA makes when they dont want to change a reg or fix a problem?

while its true that the people that weren't there do not know every single detail of what happened, it doesnt mean that you cant have a pretty good idea or even be right about what happened. most people here have a pretty good idea of how these planes work, the system and the work environment...pretty reasonable conclusions can be drawn.

unless HAL9000 was running the plane and it wouldnt let Dave descend or talk on the radio for the last 70 miles or so.. i think its safe to assume that they were doing something other than paying attention. especially on a message board by and for industry workers who speak from a base of experience.

the controllers in hilo only see one type of approach.. everything comes in the same way every day, day in day out. they are pretty good at calling you out on a deviation that are obviously not a part of the same old boring routine. that flight path was pretty far beyond somewhere where a controller would be asking you "WTF".

as far as the pax not knowing anything because they are in the back... this is not true. have you heard of the eskimo ndb? this is kind of the same thing. these passengers fly the same routes so many times, i'm sure some have more time on that route than some go! pilots. they know about when they should be descending... and they certainly know they are supposed to be closer to the ocean than what 21,000' looks like when they are flying past pepeekeo point or hilo.

we all know rest is an issue.. and mesa is one of the most abused in this regard. alpa will give them their defense.... trying to cover it up and pretend like nothing happened wont help fix this problem it only benefits the management.

before you call me a mesa-basher.. let me tell you this: some of my best friends are/were mesa pilots!

 

[CitationUltra]

How in the heck do both pilots fall asleep on a 40 minute flight at 9 am? Very odd.

You get what you pay for.

 

[go!ng for broke]

http://kgmb9.com/main/content/view/4222/76/


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/20/eveningnews/main3854375.shtml


Have a very very nice evening

 

[dash8driver]

http://kgmb9.com/main/content/view/4222/76/


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/20/eveningnews/main3854375.shtml


Have a very very nice evening

wow..there was another incident the day before. maybe HAL-9000 wont let the pilots fly the plane or talk on the radios.


Dave Bowman: Open the pod bay doors, HAL.
HAL: I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.
Dave Bowman: What's the problem?
HAL: I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do.
Dave Bowman: What are you talking about, HAL?
HAL: This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
Dave Bowman: I don't know what you're talking about, HAL?
HAL: I know you and Frank were planning to disconnect me, and I'm afraid that's something I cannot allow to happen.
Dave Bowman: Where the hell'd you get that idea, HAL?
HAL: Dave, although you took thorough precautions in the pod against my hearing you, I could see your lips move.

 

[dash8driver]

alright.. who's gonna photoshop a go! airplane and replace "go!" with "zzzzz!"? or "gone to sleep!"?

 

[RJP]

This has become BIG NEWS. Even CNN is showing this on their front page.

 

[XPOO]

No Skywest management ball-licker has any business criticizing the pilots of any airline. Back to your cubicle!

Yawn, more of the same rhetoric. Wake me up when you either say something you don't say on a daily basis, or when we reach Hilo, ok?

 

[Soverytired]

Gentlemen,

I acknowledge the fact that Mesa's current contract is terrible. And while most long-time Mesa pilots and long-time Mesa bashers like to finger the "Freedom-A" guys for their s-contract, I think that was more of an excuse not to do the hard thing, which was to push for a strike when they had the chance.

So yes, Mesa pilots dropped the ball, big-time, last time. I think they can, and will, do a lot better this time. I've made no secret about my disdain for labor in general and ALPA in particular, yet even I was CHOMPING AT THE BIT to burn the place down with a debilitating and costly strike just for payback.

Payback for what? Well, utterly unsafe but perfectly "legal" schedules that invite the kind of "sleepy pilot" stories we're seeing today for one thing. Stories where pilots, not management, will take the fall.

So get on board and start backing your Mesa brothers. 1600 pilots aren't just going to quit because you don't like competition. Deal with the fact that the best thing that can happen for every regional pilots everywhere is unfettered support and cooperation with these pilots who are fighting for a better contract.

They can raise the bar. They need your help. If they strike, you'll be paying extra dues for your "strike assesment" anyway; why see that money go to waste as you pay with one hand yet tear down the pilots receiving it with the other?

 

[Soverytired]

nice....isnt this the same excuse the FAA and ATA makes when they dont want to change a reg or fix a problem?

while its true that the people that weren't there do not know every single detail of what happened,


we all know rest is an issue.. and mesa is one of the most abused in this regard. alpa will give them their defense.... trying to cover it up and pretend like nothing happened wont help fix this problem it only benefits the management.

before you call me a mesa-basher.. let me tell you this: some of my best friends are/were mesa pilots!

You're no Mesa-basher. As a mighty DHC-8 driver (13 ft diameter props!), I have to assume you're alright!

There are reports that this happened to another Mesa/Go flight within the past week. "This" being a "lost comm" situation.

That right there speaks volumes. What is more likely . . . 2 different crews fell asleep twice in the space of a week, or SOMETHING WAS BROKE ON ONE OF THE RADIOS of one of the 3-5 planes flying in Hawaii? Those CRJ200's in Hawaii aren't exactly the pride of the Mesa inventory, either.

I have no inside information; however, I'm beginning to think that it's far more plausible that these two crews just had a wiggy radio and did not brief, plan, and fly proper "lost comm" procedures.

Remember the saying "An airplane may disappoint, but will never surprise, a good pilot." Short flights or high traffic density arrivals/departures are a nightmare for lost comm scenarios, and I could see pilots being caught flat footed. No excuse, of course. NONE. But I'm afraid it happens . . . be honest, could this ever have happened to you on one of your no-so-sharp days?

Oh . . I don't think ALPA will defend them. Just my opinion. If they slept, I have no doubt that they had legal rest. ALPA can't defend careless and reckless behavior. Hope I'm wrong, of course, but I suspect these guys are toast, lost comm or nappy-time, your choice.

 

[Poahi]

...
So get on board and start backing your Mesa brothers. 1600 pilots aren't just going to quit because you don't like competition.

Soverytired,

You are wasting your time. Many of these pilots you are directing your plea for support to have no interest in safety, brotherhood or even a better contract for Mesa. They are an organized group whose only purpose is destroying Mesa. Your job and your desire to improve the QOL at Mesa interferes with their concerted effort to drive Mesa out of business. Make no mistake, they would throw you under a bus if it would further their cause.

It's a sad situation and is getting worse every day.

 

[Junkflyer]

So this crew couldn't just continue to their filed destination? Maybe look for some light signals? Hilo is not exactly what you would call a busy airport.

 

[RJP]

Nordo!!!!!

Yawn, more of the same rhetoric. Wake me up when you either say something you don't say on a daily basis, or when we reach Hilo, ok?

:beer: Bravo! Nicely done.

BTW, since they apparently didn't talk to anyone for 25 minutes and overflew their destination at 21k', and the FAA says they're "looking into whether the crew fell asleep" leads one to believe that they didn't squawk 7600 (refresh my memory t-rex---isn't that what you do if you go NORDO?) and they didn't follow any standard FAA procedures which, in turn, leads one to believe that they DIDN'T have a radio problem? Oh, and they apparently "fixed" the mystery radio problem before they landed, because landing without comm hasn't been mentioned yet.

I'm not passing judgement here, but c'mon. Lost comm? Puleeeeeeezeee!

 

[RJP]

Update:

Go! pilots who flew past Hilo suspended

By Dave Segal
[email protected]
Mesa Air Group told employees yesterday that the two pilots of go! being investigated for possibly falling asleep on a Feb. 13 midmorning flight from Honolulu to Hilo and overshooting the airport have been taken off duty pending the outcome of a company and Federal Aviation Administration investigation.

Mesa has declined to identify the pilots at the controls of the 50-seat CRJ-200, but the captain had more than 15 years of experience, a company employee said who declined to be identified. No information was available on the first officer.

In an internal memo, Mesa said that "any occurrence which has the potential to adversely impact the normal operation of a flight is viewed by the company with the utmost seriousness, and where warranted we will take all appropriate and necessary measures."

The pilots were pulled from flight duties on the same day of the incident, according to Jonathan Ornstein, chairman and chief executive officer of Mesa.

FAA spokesman Ian Gregor said yesterday that the investigation is still proceeding, but that the agency has yet to speak to the pilots.

Generally speaking, Gregor said that a pilot who violates FAA regulations can face sanctions ranging from a warning letter to suspension to a revoked license.

He also said that "it's very rare for both pilots to fall asleep" but that he had no direct knowledge of the go! situation.

Mesa also said in the internal memo that it is not involved in ongoing merger discussions that are taking place between some of the major United States carriers, including some of Mesa's partners. Mesa, based in Phoenix, is a regional carrier for Delta Air Lines, US Airways and United Airlines. Delta has been in merger talks with Northwest Airlines while Continental Airlines reportedly has been in merger talks with United, as well as exploratory talks with American Airlines. US Airways merged with America West in 2005.

 

[dash8driver]

There are reports that this happened to another Mesa/Go flight within the past week. "This" being a "lost comm" situation.

That right there speaks volumes. What is more likely . . . 2 different crews fell asleep twice in the space of a week, or SOMETHING WAS BROKE ON ONE OF THE RADIOS of one of the 3-5 planes flying in Hawaii? Those CRJ200's in Hawaii aren't exactly the pride of the Mesa inventory, either.

I have no inside information; however, I'm beginning to think that it's far more plausible that these two crews just had a wiggy radio and did not brief, plan, and fly proper "lost comm" procedures.

something does seem odd about it happening twice in one week. they are separate events tho..while it could be the same thing twice.. that would be making more assumptions without the facts..

it's much more easy figure it was something insidious like management's scheduling practices coming to home to roost (which can happen to anyone and many can relate to) than to assume the 4 pilots didn't notice they werent being talked to and didnt know what to do in lost comms (which is pretty basic and more of an experience/training type thing).

i dont know which one i would hope it is. i just hope the pilots make it out alright and hope its something that can be pinned on the company/management in the end.

i think most of the mesa-bashers are really against the company but their focus and/or message gets confused in all the excitement. everything else is flamebait or uberlame.

be honest, could this ever have happened to you on one of your no-so-sharp days?

are you trying to tell me i have sharp days?

Oh . . I don't think ALPA will defend them. Just my opinion. If they slept, I have no doubt that they had legal rest. ALPA can't defend careless and reckless behavior. Hope I'm wrong, of course, but I suspect these guys are toast, lost comm or nappy-time, your choice.

if their alpa reps are worth anything, they'll get a defense no matter what. its not alpa's place to pre-judge and abandon the pilot. alpa's job is ensure the pilots get proper representation and fair treatment from the company. i really hope your statement wasnt made from experience/observations while at mesa.

 

[dooork]

Don't forget "Go around is no Option" and the FO that got busted stealing a pax IPOD while going threw Security.

Yea!! and also the crew that took off on the wrong runway and....opps that one wasn't us.

 

[Soverytired]

I'll acknowledge this: If it was loss comm, it was improperly handled, and that's a fact.


That said, every "other" crew's boo-boo's are an opportunities for professionals like us to remember that not only CAN "it" happen to us, it WILL, at the worst possible moment . . . . so it's best to be prepared.

Be honest . . . quick:

• Name the light gun signals (colors, differences between airborne/ground use, what they mean, how far they can be seen day/night, etc.)
• Name the signals you'll encounter from an Air Force intercept, and your proper procedures to respond back. Day and night please. No time for looking at your manuals . . .this is the only chance that USAF boy has for a live fire exercise and he's looking awfully eager.
• Proper IFR lost comm procedures. You're whizzing along at 6 miles a minute and land in 10 minutes. Diagnose, or fly the plane? (Ok, fly the plane)

And so forth. However this turns out, I'm gonna look at it as a learning experience and there for the grace o'god go I. Bushing up on the basics is a good place to start.

 

[Soverytired]

Soverytired,

You are wasting your time.

Make no mistake, they would throw you under a bus if it would further their cause.

It's a sad situation and is getting worse every day.

Ya think?

But it's not wasting time. If find pounding away and pontificating from time to time therapeutic.

Mental masturbation, if you will . . .

 

[Soverytired]

:beer: Bravo! Nicely done.

BTW, since they apparently didn't talk to anyone for 25 minutes and overflew their destination at 21k', and the FAA says they're "looking into whether the crew fell asleep" leads one to believe that they didn't squawk 7600 (refresh my memory t-rex---isn't that what you do if you go NORDO?) and they didn't follow any standard FAA procedures which, in turn, leads one to believe that they DIDN'T have a radio problem? Oh, and they apparently "fixed" the mystery radio problem before they landed, because landing without comm hasn't been mentioned yet.

I'm not passing judgement here, but c'mon. Lost comm? Puleeeeeeezeee!

Ever had a write up with "Item X operates intermittently"? Ever SHOULD have written it up but left it for the next crew?

Is it more likely that a crew fell asleep on a 25 min flight, where everything is pretty much a$$-n-elbows anyway? OR "Something else"?

Lost comm seems the most likely scenario. That or aliens. With probes. Oh, you know what kind of probes . . . .

All will be revealed in the fullness of time. Until then, all this yak yak is sheer speculation based on press reports, which are usually pathetic.

WAIT . . . It was just on Fox News. Nevermind. They're always fair and balanced, so I guess it must have happened.

 

[RJP]

I don't watch fox news. In fact, I rarely watch any news, but that's off the subject.

Since you're not going to give up the fight here, I'll throw in the towel. You must be right. Intermittent comm failure.

Or probing aliens. Let us know when they actually find out what the cause was.

Aloha.

 

[say again]

Ah, they fell asleep, end of story!!! LOL:beer:

 

[a_cardboardbox]

This was in my company e-mail, fwiw-


February 21, 2008

Dear Fellow Employees

Much has been ‘reported’ in the media concerning an incident involving the flight crew of go! Flight 1002, operating between Honolulu and Kona, on February 13. A number of those media reports contained inaccuracies and ‘opinions’ which impact negatively on the reputation of our Company and on our people. As we communicated to you yesterday, Mesa is cooperating fully with the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) investigation which is currently under way. Both pilots have been removed from flight duties pending the outcome of that investigation, and we feel it would not be prudent to comment further until that is completed.

That being said, it is also important that we share with you some of the facts.

• One media report out of Hawaii maintained that “the co pilot was inexperienced”

Fact: The First Officer (co pilot) has at total of 1,250 flight hours with 500 hours on the CRJ

The captain of the flight has 25,000 hours total flight experience and 8,000 hours on the CRJ. Both are experienced pilots.

• The same media report maintains that the captain “…..was based in Nashville, but was working in Hawaii on a one week forced assignment.”

Fact: On December 17, 2007, the captain submitted a bid for temporary duty based in Hawaii in either Maui (first preference) or Kona (second preference). He has been in Hawaii since January 13

Fact: FAA Regulations provide for a minimum of 8 hours rest prior to commencement of flying duties

Fact: Three days prior to February 13 over-flight incident, the captain had a rest period of 14 hours and 55 minutes prior to commencement of his flight duty, two days prior he had a rest period of 14 hours 55 minutes and the night prior to the incident, his rest period was 14 hours and 53 minutes.

In the case of the first officer the rest periods on those same three days prior to the February 13 incident were 38 hours 52 minutes, 14 hours and 55 minutes and 14 hours 53 minutes respectively.


Fact: Federal Aviation Regulations allow for a maximum duty day of 16 hours.
The average length of duty for the captain during the three days prior to February 13 was 8 hours 39 minutes.

The average length of duty for the first officer on the two days worked prior to February 13 was 9 hours and 6 minutes. Three days prior the first officer had a day off.


As an experienced airline captain myself with more than 14,000 hours of international flight experience, mostly on Boeing 737s, I thought it was important, and might be of interest to you, if I shared these facts to correct some of the inaccuracies being reported.

Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions or comments.


Best regards,

Paul


Paul Skellon
Vice President Corporate Communications
Mesa Air Group

 

[CA1900]

This is always appropriate:

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/931/mesaba5.jpg


:laugh:


But seriously, here's another theory: This is a coordinated effort between Aloha and the local air traffic controllers to create bad press for Mesa and drive Go out of Hawaii. The controllers put them on a heading at 21000, and wouldn't let them descend for 25 minutes. Instant news story!

 

[Soverytired]

"METHINKS HE DOTH PROTEST TOO MUCH"

This was in my company e-mail, fwiw-


February 21, 2008

Dear Fellow Employees

Much has been ‘reported’ in the media concerning an incident involving the flight crew of go! Flight 1002, operating between Honolulu and Kona, on February 13. A number of those media reports contained inaccuracies and ‘opinions’ which impact negatively on the reputation of our Company and on our people.

Fact: FAA Regulations provide for a minimum of 8 hours rest prior to commencement of flying duties

Fact: Three days prior to February 13 over-flight incident, the captain had a rest period of 14 hours and 55 minutes prior to commencement of his flight duty, two days prior he had a rest period of 14 hours 55 minutes and the night prior to the incident, his rest period was 14 hours and 53 minutes.

The average length of duty for the captain during the three days prior to February 13 was 8 hours 39 minutes.

See! Everything is the PILOTS fault! (thanks for the e-mail forward)

Well, it might be. [sigh, wrong again] Nice of the company to tell everyone to STFU about whining to the press about Mesa duty times and FAA minimum rest requirements.

(This did not prevent me, a now non-Mesa employee, from forwarding to the press my last Mesa schedules and experiences that had 14 hour day after 14 hour day, all in the middle of the night, sleeping with my crew in the back of an CRJ or in the one hotel room provided for 4 mixed gender crew members. Ever seen one of your male flight attendants in his underwear? <SHUDDER>).

"Fact: FAA Regulations provide for a minimum of 8 hours rest prior to commencement of flying duties"

--- well, yes. And no. That's 8 hours free from duty. So if it takes you an hour to drive home, too bad. And an hour to drive back? Tough. And you didn't fall asleep immediately? You showered, shaved, shined your shoes and ate a good meal? Well, that's all "rest". How convenient.

Rest may not have been an issue in this instance. But Mesa is clearly HYPERSENSITIVE to this charge.

"METHINKS HE DOTH PROTEST TOO MUCH"

 

[dash8driver]

ok..so the pilots had lots of rest.. so they must not be sleeping. they had lots of experience so that drops the unexperienced-dangerous-mesa-pilots argument.

what happened? maybe they were reading the paper?

btw, knowing your light gun signals does you no good when the airport is 21,000 feet below you and at your 6 o'clock.

i was hoping this would have been a legal (but not safe) rest issue that needs to be highlighted and changed.

well, now we have the company's spin anyway. all that's left to get now are the facts....

 

[Fly2Scuba]

As an experienced airline captain myself with more than 14,000 hours of international flight experience, mostly on Boeing 737s, I thought it was important, and might be of interest to you, if I shared these facts to correct some of the inaccuracies being reported.

Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions or comments.


Best regards,

Paul


Paul Skellon
Vice President Corporate Communications
Mesa Air Group

I'm sure someone, perhaps you, as a higher up at Mesa is reading this thread. With that in mind, you're operation is scumbag in this industry and bad press, even inaccurate, is well deserved.

 

[Trash8Mofo]

Fact: A Pilot with as many hours as the captain has, is by pure math, not young. An older pilot is MORE likely to fall asleep since his/her blood can carry less O2 than a younger pilot.

Fact: Flight experience does not have any bering on sleep habits.

Fact: The flight missed the intended airport and flew over a 14,000 feet rapid raising mountain. If the flight was on a descent, there'd would be a smoking Go! hole there.

Fact: (according to Mesa's memo), the flight was heading to Kona, which is MORE likely for the pilots to fall asleep because ATC always clear the flights to Direct KOA (or IAF ILS35) as soon as the plane makes its initial turn departing HNL.

Fact: If the Comm were messed up, they could have held over Koa VOR, Sqawk properly, becomes VFR, etc. There is no evidence to suggest that the A/C has Comm problems. An argument of Comm problems without any evidence to suggest so, its about as silly as an argument of that the autopilot wouldn't disengage, the elevators were jammed, or any number of things. Which is a pointless exercise of circler logic.