Both Mesa GO! pilots fall asleep during flight

[V1 Rotate]

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ASH1002/history/20080213/1925Z/PHNL/PHTO

 

[skyguy40]

I was talking to the FAA yesterday and ask questions regarding long duty times because of safety. Why are we having so much trouble lowering the max time you could be on duty. As he agreed that it has gone on too long and he was on our side, he said Washington told them to back off from this issue as these are hard economic times and the Airlines would not be able to handle this hardship. His advice was to support ALPA. They are the only voice we have. So there you have it. It cost too much to be that safe.

 

[SpyFlysDOTs]

Purely for entertainment, as that is why some of us come to these parts, right?

http://golfdevil.co.uk/hawaii.wav

 

[Trash8Mofo]

deleted

 

[dash8driver]

(Remember, No one got hurt, no equipment was damaged, and no loss of separation occurred. People will be punished. Big. Frikin. Deal.)

nice....isnt this the same excuse the FAA and ATA makes when they dont want to change a reg or fix a problem?

while its true that the people that weren't there do not know every single detail of what happened, it doesnt mean that you cant have a pretty good idea or even be right about what happened. most people here have a pretty good idea of how these planes work, the system and the work environment...pretty reasonable conclusions can be drawn.

unless HAL9000 was running the plane and it wouldnt let Dave descend or talk on the radio for the last 70 miles or so.. i think its safe to assume that they were doing something other than paying attention. especially on a message board by and for industry workers who speak from a base of experience.

the controllers in hilo only see one type of approach.. everything comes in the same way every day, day in day out. they are pretty good at calling you out on a deviation that are obviously not a part of the same old boring routine. that flight path was pretty far beyond somewhere where a controller would be asking you "WTF".

as far as the pax not knowing anything because they are in the back... this is not true. have you heard of the eskimo ndb? this is kind of the same thing. these passengers fly the same routes so many times, i'm sure some have more time on that route than some go! pilots. they know about when they should be descending... and they certainly know they are supposed to be closer to the ocean than what 21,000' looks like when they are flying past pepeekeo point or hilo.

we all know rest is an issue.. and mesa is one of the most abused in this regard. alpa will give them their defense.... trying to cover it up and pretend like nothing happened wont help fix this problem it only benefits the management.

before you call me a mesa-basher.. let me tell you this: some of my best friends are/were mesa pilots!

 

[CitationUltra]

How in the heck do both pilots fall asleep on a 40 minute flight at 9 am? Very odd.

You get what you pay for.

 

[go!ng for broke]

http://kgmb9.com/main/content/view/4222/76/


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/20/eveningnews/main3854375.shtml


Have a very very nice evening

 

[dash8driver]

http://kgmb9.com/main/content/view/4222/76/


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/20/eveningnews/main3854375.shtml


Have a very very nice evening

wow..there was another incident the day before. maybe HAL-9000 wont let the pilots fly the plane or talk on the radios.


Dave Bowman: Open the pod bay doors, HAL.
HAL: I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.
Dave Bowman: What's the problem?
HAL: I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do.
Dave Bowman: What are you talking about, HAL?
HAL: This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
Dave Bowman: I don't know what you're talking about, HAL?
HAL: I know you and Frank were planning to disconnect me, and I'm afraid that's something I cannot allow to happen.
Dave Bowman: Where the hell'd you get that idea, HAL?
HAL: Dave, although you took thorough precautions in the pod against my hearing you, I could see your lips move.

 

[dash8driver]

alright.. who's gonna photoshop a go! airplane and replace "go!" with "zzzzz!"? or "gone to sleep!"?

 

[RJP]

This has become BIG NEWS. Even CNN is showing this on their front page.

 

[XPOO]

No Skywest management ball-licker has any business criticizing the pilots of any airline. Back to your cubicle!

Yawn, more of the same rhetoric. Wake me up when you either say something you don't say on a daily basis, or when we reach Hilo, ok?

 

[Soverytired]

Gentlemen,

I acknowledge the fact that Mesa's current contract is terrible. And while most long-time Mesa pilots and long-time Mesa bashers like to finger the "Freedom-A" guys for their s-contract, I think that was more of an excuse not to do the hard thing, which was to push for a strike when they had the chance.

So yes, Mesa pilots dropped the ball, big-time, last time. I think they can, and will, do a lot better this time. I've made no secret about my disdain for labor in general and ALPA in particular, yet even I was CHOMPING AT THE BIT to burn the place down with a debilitating and costly strike just for payback.

Payback for what? Well, utterly unsafe but perfectly "legal" schedules that invite the kind of "sleepy pilot" stories we're seeing today for one thing. Stories where pilots, not management, will take the fall.

So get on board and start backing your Mesa brothers. 1600 pilots aren't just going to quit because you don't like competition. Deal with the fact that the best thing that can happen for every regional pilots everywhere is unfettered support and cooperation with these pilots who are fighting for a better contract.

They can raise the bar. They need your help. If they strike, you'll be paying extra dues for your "strike assesment" anyway; why see that money go to waste as you pay with one hand yet tear down the pilots receiving it with the other?

 

[Soverytired]

nice....isnt this the same excuse the FAA and ATA makes when they dont want to change a reg or fix a problem?

while its true that the people that weren't there do not know every single detail of what happened,


we all know rest is an issue.. and mesa is one of the most abused in this regard. alpa will give them their defense.... trying to cover it up and pretend like nothing happened wont help fix this problem it only benefits the management.

before you call me a mesa-basher.. let me tell you this: some of my best friends are/were mesa pilots!

You're no Mesa-basher. As a mighty DHC-8 driver (13 ft diameter props!), I have to assume you're alright!

There are reports that this happened to another Mesa/Go flight within the past week. "This" being a "lost comm" situation.

That right there speaks volumes. What is more likely . . . 2 different crews fell asleep twice in the space of a week, or SOMETHING WAS BROKE ON ONE OF THE RADIOS of one of the 3-5 planes flying in Hawaii? Those CRJ200's in Hawaii aren't exactly the pride of the Mesa inventory, either.

I have no inside information; however, I'm beginning to think that it's far more plausible that these two crews just had a wiggy radio and did not brief, plan, and fly proper "lost comm" procedures.

Remember the saying "An airplane may disappoint, but will never surprise, a good pilot." Short flights or high traffic density arrivals/departures are a nightmare for lost comm scenarios, and I could see pilots being caught flat footed. No excuse, of course. NONE. But I'm afraid it happens . . . be honest, could this ever have happened to you on one of your no-so-sharp days?

Oh . . I don't think ALPA will defend them. Just my opinion. If they slept, I have no doubt that they had legal rest. ALPA can't defend careless and reckless behavior. Hope I'm wrong, of course, but I suspect these guys are toast, lost comm or nappy-time, your choice.

 

[Poahi]

...
So get on board and start backing your Mesa brothers. 1600 pilots aren't just going to quit because you don't like competition.

Soverytired,

You are wasting your time. Many of these pilots you are directing your plea for support to have no interest in safety, brotherhood or even a better contract for Mesa. They are an organized group whose only purpose is destroying Mesa. Your job and your desire to improve the QOL at Mesa interferes with their concerted effort to drive Mesa out of business. Make no mistake, they would throw you under a bus if it would further their cause.

It's a sad situation and is getting worse every day.

 

[Junkflyer]

So this crew couldn't just continue to their filed destination? Maybe look for some light signals? Hilo is not exactly what you would call a busy airport.

 

[RJP]

Nordo!!!!!

Yawn, more of the same rhetoric. Wake me up when you either say something you don't say on a daily basis, or when we reach Hilo, ok?

:beer: Bravo! Nicely done.

BTW, since they apparently didn't talk to anyone for 25 minutes and overflew their destination at 21k', and the FAA says they're "looking into whether the crew fell asleep" leads one to believe that they didn't squawk 7600 (refresh my memory t-rex---isn't that what you do if you go NORDO?) and they didn't follow any standard FAA procedures which, in turn, leads one to believe that they DIDN'T have a radio problem? Oh, and they apparently "fixed" the mystery radio problem before they landed, because landing without comm hasn't been mentioned yet.

I'm not passing judgement here, but c'mon. Lost comm? Puleeeeeeezeee!

 

[RJP]

Update:

Go! pilots who flew past Hilo suspended

By Dave Segal
[email protected]
Mesa Air Group told employees yesterday that the two pilots of go! being investigated for possibly falling asleep on a Feb. 13 midmorning flight from Honolulu to Hilo and overshooting the airport have been taken off duty pending the outcome of a company and Federal Aviation Administration investigation.

Mesa has declined to identify the pilots at the controls of the 50-seat CRJ-200, but the captain had more than 15 years of experience, a company employee said who declined to be identified. No information was available on the first officer.

In an internal memo, Mesa said that "any occurrence which has the potential to adversely impact the normal operation of a flight is viewed by the company with the utmost seriousness, and where warranted we will take all appropriate and necessary measures."

The pilots were pulled from flight duties on the same day of the incident, according to Jonathan Ornstein, chairman and chief executive officer of Mesa.

FAA spokesman Ian Gregor said yesterday that the investigation is still proceeding, but that the agency has yet to speak to the pilots.

Generally speaking, Gregor said that a pilot who violates FAA regulations can face sanctions ranging from a warning letter to suspension to a revoked license.

He also said that "it's very rare for both pilots to fall asleep" but that he had no direct knowledge of the go! situation.

Mesa also said in the internal memo that it is not involved in ongoing merger discussions that are taking place between some of the major United States carriers, including some of Mesa's partners. Mesa, based in Phoenix, is a regional carrier for Delta Air Lines, US Airways and United Airlines. Delta has been in merger talks with Northwest Airlines while Continental Airlines reportedly has been in merger talks with United, as well as exploratory talks with American Airlines. US Airways merged with America West in 2005.

 

[dash8driver]

There are reports that this happened to another Mesa/Go flight within the past week. "This" being a "lost comm" situation.

That right there speaks volumes. What is more likely . . . 2 different crews fell asleep twice in the space of a week, or SOMETHING WAS BROKE ON ONE OF THE RADIOS of one of the 3-5 planes flying in Hawaii? Those CRJ200's in Hawaii aren't exactly the pride of the Mesa inventory, either.

I have no inside information; however, I'm beginning to think that it's far more plausible that these two crews just had a wiggy radio and did not brief, plan, and fly proper "lost comm" procedures.

something does seem odd about it happening twice in one week. they are separate events tho..while it could be the same thing twice.. that would be making more assumptions without the facts..

it's much more easy figure it was something insidious like management's scheduling practices coming to home to roost (which can happen to anyone and many can relate to) than to assume the 4 pilots didn't notice they werent being talked to and didnt know what to do in lost comms (which is pretty basic and more of an experience/training type thing).

i dont know which one i would hope it is. i just hope the pilots make it out alright and hope its something that can be pinned on the company/management in the end.

i think most of the mesa-bashers are really against the company but their focus and/or message gets confused in all the excitement. everything else is flamebait or uberlame.

be honest, could this ever have happened to you on one of your no-so-sharp days?

are you trying to tell me i have sharp days?

Oh . . I don't think ALPA will defend them. Just my opinion. If they slept, I have no doubt that they had legal rest. ALPA can't defend careless and reckless behavior. Hope I'm wrong, of course, but I suspect these guys are toast, lost comm or nappy-time, your choice.

if their alpa reps are worth anything, they'll get a defense no matter what. its not alpa's place to pre-judge and abandon the pilot. alpa's job is ensure the pilots get proper representation and fair treatment from the company. i really hope your statement wasnt made from experience/observations while at mesa.

 

[dooork]

Don't forget "Go around is no Option" and the FO that got busted stealing a pax IPOD while going threw Security.

Yea!! and also the crew that took off on the wrong runway and....opps that one wasn't us.

 

[Soverytired]

I'll acknowledge this: If it was loss comm, it was improperly handled, and that's a fact.


That said, every "other" crew's boo-boo's are an opportunities for professionals like us to remember that not only CAN "it" happen to us, it WILL, at the worst possible moment . . . . so it's best to be prepared.

Be honest . . . quick:

• Name the light gun signals (colors, differences between airborne/ground use, what they mean, how far they can be seen day/night, etc.)
• Name the signals you'll encounter from an Air Force intercept, and your proper procedures to respond back. Day and night please. No time for looking at your manuals . . .this is the only chance that USAF boy has for a live fire exercise and he's looking awfully eager.
• Proper IFR lost comm procedures. You're whizzing along at 6 miles a minute and land in 10 minutes. Diagnose, or fly the plane? (Ok, fly the plane)

And so forth. However this turns out, I'm gonna look at it as a learning experience and there for the grace o'god go I. Bushing up on the basics is a good place to start.