B19 Flyer

[gunfyter]

7777,

I came out of the military in 1993 with really no knowledge of what aviation was like outside the military.... There were no boards like this available to my knowledge plus we had like 300 baud modems I think.

I had the misfortune of working at 3 non-union shops before coming to where I am now. I really was in shock and disbelief at the way pilots were treated and the attitudes of managements. It was sickening.

I guess the only information I had before 1993 was from fellow military aviators and almost all had gone straight from Active Duty to a major like American, Delta, Eastern or United. It all sounded good to me. But I had to fly regionals and 135 non-scheduled.... and contract out of Kuwait and Saudi.

I hope you have a better experience than I did. Without a union... You are on your own out here.... Also keep in mind ... those who came up through the Civilian route ....

They don't go from Military to Major or Frac.... They Instruct, fly night freight in airplanes barely airworthy for VERY little pay and live on ramen noodles ... are abused by management ... Then finally get to go to a Regional ... fly for little pay and get abused and disrespected some more.

Anyone here will tell you these fracs are light years better places to be ... than most of the regionals, 135 companies etc..

You haven't seen the tactics of some managements. I am against CardCheck myself ... But Communism it is not.
Don't be seduced by 19 ... he is part of the Axis of Evil.

 

[7777]

Solid ********************ing post gunfyter. Thanks

I can't say I agree with all that B-19 says but I don't disagree with alot of it either.

I find it funny not a one of these pro union guys/gals has stepped up to the plate to answer my previous question.

I am in the middle really. I know there are some ********************ty management people. There are just as many ********************ty union people.

I get really tired of these types of debates. B-19 has some valid points as do the educated, informed union guys (few and far between in this thread).

It would be nice if everyone could get along really.

Yeah, I know....will never happen and this country will suck as a result.

 

[7777]

BTW gunfyter, you and I know EXACTLY what that 'card check' (as you call it) is about.

It is BULL********************!!!!! IF unions are all that, they wouldn't need that bull********************. Plain and simple.

 

[fob727]

Efca

LOL, that says nothing to me. How does that majority sign up work?

Are you saying that the union organizers will NOT know how employees vote with this EFCA? Just cut to the chase please. I don't need the BS. There is enough of that in this thread.

Give me credible sources too please. AFL/CIO isn't going to cut it for me as they are the ones pushing it....right?

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c110:4:./temp/~c110cyibXk::

There you go, 7777.

 

[7777]

Thanks for the effort.

It came up with Libarary of Congress....file not found.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Thank you....

I agree with alot of your points B man. You make some very valid points. You know this though, because I have sent you some PM's on this. This particular quote is a perfect example of how I feel.

Pro Union posters, if unions are all that, then why the push for the Employee Free Choice Act (EFCA)? THAT is bull********************!

For those not in the know, it will allow a union organizer to walk up to an employee and get a yes or no vote on the union card in person. No more secret ballots. WTF is that? This is about intimidation, pure and simple.

I have good friends on both sides of this issue as well. So to answer fischmans question.....here I am. I have sent PM's to B-19 on these issues.

I asked not to be identified because I don't care about this argument as much as you all do. I am in the military now, but would love to work in the industry in the future. I do care about being able to choose for or against a union in private, however, with this EFCA in congress, it is starting to look like communism to me and it is starting to piss me off.

7777,

Thanks for your support, there wasn't any reason for you to speak out and I appreciate the backing. As you and the others are aware through our conversations, I'm a man of my word about confidentiality when somebody sends me a PM.

Recent months have been difficult on everybody in all industries including aviation. As things get tighter, I'm increasingly amazed about how little labor is willing to give up. It seems as though labor would prefer the unemployment line to a steady paycheck.

There was a time in this country where organized labor had it's place, but in today's day and age pilots can't be compared to coal miners or steel workers. Pilots work in a highly regulated environment and aren't limited geographically to a specific area or career.

When we talk about the card drives, union members like to talk about the "majority". The "majority" is always within the work group, which means that one work group holds the rest of the workers hostage to their requirments. If other work groups feel a need to protect themselves and their pay, a second union comes on the property, then a third and the next thing you know the entire company is working for the unions and not what is best for the long term well being of the entire organization.

Unions drives don't have the guts to poll and consider the rest of the workers that are affected in the company, because they already know the results. Nobody else in the company wants a union on the property because of the negative impact.

Over the upcoming year, the true union spirit will show through and it will be interesting how many non-union employees will first lose their jobs as a direct result of union members refusing to put the company and well being of the entire company into consideration.

Thanx for the support 7777 and from all the rest of you that I have received support from by my speaking openly where many of you can't because others know who you are. All of us know that speaking against the union way on this board brings the union mongers out of the woodwork.

These union guys just don't "get it" and would prefer to see the company go under rather than create a balance of fairness to preserve the long term financial well being of the entire company.

My experiences with unions make Wall St. look ethical.

 

[Diesel]

Well we found B19's alter ego, 7777. Easy to remember, when you're trying to crush unions.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Be careful what you ask for...

Well we found B19's alter ego, 7777. Easy to remember, when you're trying to crush unions.

Nobody is trying to crush a union, they seem to do a pretty good job of that themselves. Union members get exactly what they ask for, turmoil, grief and a company that can't adjust to the changing economy when times are bad.

It's the non-union worker supporting the union worker that becomes collateral damage, and they didn't want the union in the first place.

Oh, and 7777... you knew that was coming. It took only one post.

 

[fob727]

a different way

Thanks for the effort.

It came up with Libarary of Congress....file not found.

7777, use the afl-cio link that Gerryg gave, in the upper left hand corner there is another link that will take you to the LOC. It provides all the info. you need.

 

[7777]

Well we found B19's alter ego, 7777. Easy to remember, when you're trying to crush unions.

Why, because I am not in agreement with your mindset?

gunfyter earns alot of respect from me for his post. He made some valid points and backed it with his experiences. That is solid.

B-19 does the exact same thing with his posts as well. There are valid arguments on both sides and I am interested in listening and participating when I feel it necessary. B-19 and I have conversed in the past via PM both for and against his arguments.

Fischmen wanted proof, I provided it for him. I have nothing to lose and do not fear retribution for speaking my mind here. I won't when I get into the civilain world either. That is how I am. I could give a ******************** if you like it or not.

BTW, still waiting on that answer to my question about if union organizers will know how employees vote under the Employee Free Choice Act? If so, why? Several have made efforts at answering it.

If unions are everything people on this thread are saying they are, why would they NEED to have this stipulation? This is America....not Russia. We have the freedom to choose; do we not?

B-19, I know I didn't need to speak up and don't regret it. I just get sick of the uneducated debaters on this subject jumping in with their gradeschool tactics.

There are some solid posts for and against the union here. Gunfyter would be a perfect example and he backed it with his experience.

I also consider several that post here for the union, but who are not posting in this thread, friends of mine. I respect their views and know them personally.

You have backed your argument with your experiences as well, and have continued to debate and educate at the same time. It is people like you, Gunfyter and a handful of others on this subject that make it worth reading.

It is amazing how much of a difference an education can make...huh?

I have made my point. I am done. Continue the ass whippings....lol.

 

[fischman]

Fischmen wanted proof, I provided it for him. I have nothing to lose and do not fear retribution for speaking my mind here. I won't when I get into the civilain world either. That is how I am. I could give a ******************** if you like it or not.

Thank you Sir!

I have to admit, I wouldn't have believed he had ANY PMs. Unfortunatly, I don't believe a word he has said.

I understand you are in the middle, and that is a safe place to be. Be sure to do your homework as all unions are NOT created equal when you come to the private sector. For example, NJASAP has done the exact opposite of what B19 claims. It has REMOVED turmoil and provided stability, safety, and security for NetJets. So has the union at Southwest.

Not all unions do as B19 claims.

 

[squonk]

Recent months have been difficult on everybody in all industries including aviation. As things get tighter, I'm increasingly amazed about how little labor is willing to give up. It seems as though labor would prefer the unemployment line to a steady paycheck.

Can you provide any links to to back this up? You are talking about airlines right? Fractional's specifically? Is this just speculation on your part?

 

[B19 Flyer]

Uncle Warren and RS have provided stability, safety, and security - not NJASAP.

Thank you Sir!

I have to admit, I wouldn't have believed he had ANY PMs. Unfortunatly, I don't believe a word he has said.

I understand you are in the middle, and that is a safe place to be. Be sure to do your homework as all unions are NOT created equal when you come to the private sector. For example, NJASAP has done the exact opposite of what B19 claims. It has REMOVED turmoil and provided stability, safety, and security for NetJets. So has the union at Southwest.

Not all unions do as B19 claims.

NJASAP has been in existence for a matter of months and has never had to deal with what is coming up in the near future before. They have no history to prove that they have provided stability, safety and security.

Uncle Warren and RS have provided that, not NJASAP.

 

[fischman]

NJASAP has been in existence for a matter of months and has never had to deal with what is coming up in the near future before. They have no history to prove that they have provided stability, safety and security.

Uncle Warren and RS have provided that, not NJASAP.

Hmmm... That turnaround is SOLELY due to the decisions Mr. Buffett and Mr. Santulli made in that time? NJASAP and IBT1108 are the same people, same pilots, same union.

Wrong again B19. NetJets success over the past 3 years is due to the pilots, and the CBA we agreed to.

 

[Midge]

Nobody is trying to crush a union, they seem to do a pretty good job of that themselves.

Says the management lacky

Union members get exactly what they ask for, turmoil, grief and a company that can't adjust to the changing economy when times are bad.

Of course piss poor management performance has nothing to do with it eh?

It's the non-union worker supporting the union worker that becomes collateral damage, and they didn't want the union in the first place.

Keep telling yourself that. You know there's no tooth fairy too! (woops, didn't mean to break it to you)

Oh, and 7777... you knew that was coming. It took only one post.

Nice to see you answering yourself. I bet your doctor thinks you're making wonderful progress.