B19 Flyer

[993_Pilot]

. . . Union greed and selfishness astounds me.

Management greed and selfishness astounds me!

If it wasn't for that, there would be no "union greed".

 

[Chewbacca]

This thread sounds like group of kids at preschool. GAFL!

 

[Freedom]

Unions only happen due to Failed Management

What a beautiful thing. When a company is profitable a company can grow and create jobs which is what this new president is pledging to do.

Unions feel a profitable company is creating a piece of the pie they are entitled to. Unions don't feel that a prospering company should create more jobs and a better way of life for many. Instead, they would prefer to have increased salary and benefits for fewer rather than fair wages and stable incomes for many.

This is why when furloughs happen at NJ later this year, the bottom of the seniority list will get hammered rather than NJASAP negotiating to keep as many jobs on the property as possible. Unions are not out to protect their brethern, they are out to protect their pocketbooks.

Union members call management greedy yet fail to look in the mirror at what they are doing to their own membership in true times of need.

And your reference to scab? Please refer to the first post on this thread by the moderator to clear that up and the request not to use that untrue reference, of either "Bob" or "Scab".

What you seem to want to ignor, is that many of us that helped to get the Union onto the Flight Options property, were A Teamers that wanted nothing to do with a Union, until we were placed under attack by Scheeringa and his Hired Hitmen.

Greedy Management who treat their employees with an utter lack of respect cause Unions to be voted upon their properties.

Treat employees with respect, and compensate them fairly, and I can assure you, a Union would never have a chance of being voted in.

I currently work at just such a place. We won't have a Union here if things continue along the way they are going, not because Management does not want one, but because our Pilots see no need for one.

Greedy Management is its own undoing. That lesson was learned at Flight Options. And now the price will be paid by the current management there, having to operate within the confines of a Pilot Contract.

A little less greed, and the Union would have never been voted in. You can thank Scheeringa for that. He single handedly turned the most Pro Business Pilot group in the Country, into one that voted in the Teamsters by a 67% margin. Now that's what I call poor management.


Freedom is Not Free

 

[Ultra Grump]

Fisch,

At the risk of sounding like I agree with your friend here (NOT), I always preferred another line from the same flick:

"As with all creatures, each according to his gifts."

Carry on.

From our friend J Mac at Flying magazine:

Left Seat
By J. Mac McClellan
A Hero Pilot, as Expected

US Airways Captain Chesley Sullenberger is universally being hailed as a hero for his successful ditching of an Airbus A320 in the Hudson River. And he should be. But Captain Sullenberger's performance is exactly what we should all have expected, and in fact is what the rules require.

You see, in air transport flying, whether it be in the airlines or business jets, or any large airplane that requires a type rating, there are no "B" or "C" pilots allowed. Everyone must meet the same high standard of performance, and then be retrained and rechecked routinely to be sure that level of proficiency is maintained.

The same is not true for pilots of small airplanes flying for their own personal or business reasons. For personal flying in lighter airplanes we want a safe and reasonable standard that makes it possible for people with the widest array of experience and aptitude to fly. But at the ATP level in large airplanes only the best will do. For a type rating, or recurrent training and checking, there is only one passing grade and that is proficient in each task. The only other grades are making progress toward proficiency, which means you cannot be pilot in command.

When you view airline flying this way it becomes immediately apparent why only a seniority system can work to allow pilots to advance in pay, scheduling, and from copilot to captain, and to larger airplanes. Since every pilot meets the same standard they are all equal in performance. For those who are no longer equal, they're grounded. So congratulations to Captain Sullenberger for doing exactly what the training and testing of all airline pilots requires. The system works.



Yes, I know, we're not an airline. But the same logic applies in this case.

 

[Hogprint]

Great link Grump.

Well said J Mac!

When you view airline flying this way it becomes immediately apparent why only a seniority system can work to allow pilots to advance in pay, scheduling, and from copilot to captain, and to larger airplanes. Since every pilot meets the same standard they are all equal in performance. For those who are no longer equal, they're grounded. So congratulations to Captain Sullenberger for doing exactly what the training and testing of all airline pilots requires. The system works.

 

[Galaxy]

I have had that wind bag on ignore now for a long time. I remember trying to figure out how at the time someone could write 200 posts about the same thing... I laughed so hard I almost pooped out a little Bob to find he has almot 1100 post saying the same thing. FLOPS laws off before the holidays then after the holidays and crews still sit around for days waiting for trips. MS did his job-he made all the owners go away because pleasing them was too hard. It won't be long now.. FLOPS is doomed to disappear into the history books and B19 will soon go away.

 

[shanes123]

If Flops management cared about there crews they would have got rid of Babbling Bob when they returned..Its business as usual at Flops..And you are right Galaxy they soon will be out of business when HIG pulls the plug..Then where will Babblin Bob and the rest of the Cronies go? There will be alot of people in that office that will be hard pressed to find a job with there reputations. The pilots will always find work.(the good ones anyways) the rest better hope they been saving there fat salaries

 

[ToTheStars]

I wouldn't expect HIG to "pull the plug" as in sell off what assets they own. However, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't do what RAC tried to do and that is make the company sustain itself. Which will mean getting rid of what they don't need.

 

[AceCrackshot]

Let me refer you to the first post on this thread that clarified the fact I wasn't Bob. So, your top ten list? Never saw it, but I'd love to. Go ahead and post it.

Sure, Bob, sure. I read that too, and simply didn't believe it.

So, you got any good Eastern stories?

 

[B19 Flyer]

Sure, Bob, sure. I read that too, and simply didn't believe it.

So, you got any good Eastern stories?

As a matter of fact I do but it's not because I worked there, it's because I worked with former management from there. Still can't admit that Lorenzo saved as many jobs in other airlines as was lost in the Eastern debacle can you?

Still haven't seen that top ten list yet.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Management greed and selfishness astounds me!

If it wasn't for that, there would be no "union greed".

It is management that keeps a company alive and because you don't feel like you make enough money you percieve it to be greed?

Unions don't ask for big money because of fairness or to keep the company from going out of business, they do it out of greed.

They made different career choices, and as NJW once stated, you had your chance...

 

[B19 Flyer]

not true, management wanted a union. That action is a direct result of being butt boned. Truth.

Pay me what my job is worth and POOF!!!

no more union needed.

Broke, unions aren't just about pay, it's about squeezing a company and controlling everything within it. CBA's don't stop with just payroll. For each additional day you want off the cost can run into the millions depending on the size of the pilot group. It's about stifling programs in the name of safety, scope clauses to restrict growth, rest rules that a 90 year old senior would find generous in retirement, hotels the average person can't afford and meals so pilots no longer have to pack a lunch.

It's not about pay, it's about squeezing the company for everything it's got and telling the rest of the employees to screw off...

 

[B19 Flyer]

When you view airline flying this way it becomes immediately apparent why only a seniority system can work to allow pilots to advance in pay, scheduling, and from copilot to captain, and to larger airplanes. Since every pilot meets the same standard they are all equal in performance. For those who are no longer equal, they're grounded.

Being equal in performance and meeting the FAA standards in training does not mean that all pilots are equal. If this were true, the words "pilot error" would never be written in any NTSB report.

This in no means takes away from the actions of the A320 crew because it was indeed extraordinary. But, from an industry perspective there are rules built around the structure for which procedures and safety is designed.

The author of this article talks about advancement by seniority, and not furlough by seniority. He does not address the indefinables that extend beyond that of a training standard which will make one pilot be more valuable to a company than another. He doesn't address the number of "sick calls", additional training days or ability to work within the system to maximize safety.

Pilots all train and are equal to the task, but that is where the comparison ends. Being a professional pilot extends far beyond that of simply meeting a standard.

 

[brokeflyer]

Broke, unions aren't just about pay, it's about squeezing a company and controlling everything within it. CBA's don't stop with just payroll. For each additional day you want off the cost can run into the millions depending on the size of the pilot group. It's about stifling programs in the name of safety, scope clauses to restrict growth, rest rules that a 90 year old senior would find generous in retirement, hotels the average person can't afford and meals so pilots no longer have to pack a lunch.

It's not about pay, it's about squeezing the company for everything it's got and telling the rest of the employees to screw off...

ok, ill remember that as you spend every night at home with your family.

I'll rephrase, if the company would pay me what the job is worth, and give me benefits for my family and treat me like the professional that I am, guess what, then no union required.

I hate how pilots need a union, this is the last job that should require a union. It's like we're uneducated morons sweeping floors. But management, in order to rape a company, needs to treat us like that.

Times are changing, if you wanna travel you gotta pay someone to do it.

I know it sucks for management not to get that last penny that drops to floor but that's the world they made. Im just trying to live in it, sucks too.

 

[Fozzy]

It's about stifling programs in the name of safety,
Your right. ASAP, maintenance pilots, and the such are such a waste.
scope clauses to restrict growth,
protecting us from Pedro flying for $10 and hour you mean
rest rules that a 90 year old senior would find generous in retirement,
I don't know how many 90 year old seniors you know, but they DON'T sleep. Bad comparison. If you cracked a book, rest and fagigue is one of the biggest challenges to pilots. Or is NASA on the Union payroll?
hotels the average person can't afford
Horse chit. Super 8 is not conducive to rest, you sleep with the cockroaches and bed bugs
and meals so pilots no longer have to pack a lunch.
I would love to pack a lunch. But I don't have a cooler big enough for a week. I would also love to go out to lunch, but those pesky management types figured it made much more money to keep the talent in the cockpit and not in a booth at the local dinner.

It's not about pay, it's about squeezing the company for everything it's got and telling the rest of the employees to screw off...

It is about my pay and benefits. I have chosen to have a group represent me in getting a contract for my abilities. I pay for this (dues). If the other groups of the same abilities (job) want to be represented, then good for them. But I don't pay (dues) for the folks that don't belong to my Union. It is not "screw off..." it is more like do the work and get your own representation. I am not a charity. It is a big, tough, mean, ugly world. I think you need to move back in with Mom.

 

[Freedom]

Anyone Notice How Bob19 ignors.....

The fact that out of the 4 Major Fractional Companies, ONLY the Company with a Pilot Contract in force has not Laid Off or Furloughed Pilots during this just short of a Depression economy.

That's not to say that NetJets won't at some point down the road.

But it does illustrate just how strong a company can become when they give up some control (which a CBA demands) and make their front line employees (Pilots) partners in the business.

Its only little man management that can't accept that their Pilots might have something more to contribute to the company beyond just flying the airplane. Make them Partners in the Business, by treating them well and compensating them fairly, and a stronger company just might emerge.

NetJets is a classic example. Hope you guys stay strong and no one gets let go before the upswing.


Freedom is Not Free

 

[AceCrackshot]

As a matter of fact I do but it's not because I worked there, it's because I worked with former management from there. Still can't admit that Lorenzo saved as many jobs in other airlines as was lost in the Eastern debacle can you?

Still haven't seen that top ten list yet.

You have to have been on the FLOPS Pilots Message Board...the one that FLOPS Management ILLEGALLY hacked into. Since I don't have access anymore, I can't get it.

So, how exactly did Frank Lorenzo save jobs? Which jobs, where? In what way did FL fufill his fiduciary responsibility to Eastern Shareholders?

For example, Lorenzo or his inner circle have been "... CEOs, founders, or top executives of existing or new airlines, which included: JetBlue, PeoplesExpress, TWA, New York Air, Midway Airlines, Chicago Air, and Presidential..." (source Wiki.)

Now, I'm no expert, but that group isn't exactly a Who's Who of Airline Management Success, now is it?

Truly, this would be fascinating to hear. Kind of like the rantings of someone off his Thorazine. The internal logic is consistent, but you know that its still the mad ravings of a bat ******************** crazy lunatic.

 

[AceCrackshot]

But it does illustrate just how strong a company can become when they give up some control (which a CBA demands) and make their front line employees (Pilots) partners in the business.

Its only little man management that can't accept that their Pilots might have something more to contribute to the company beyond just flying the airplane. Make them Partners in the Business, by treating them well and compensating them fairly, and a stronger company just might emerge.


Freedom is Not Free

I think "control" vs. "goverence" is the model here.

A union shop, with proper management, like a federal government model. Lanes of authority are drawn by the CBA, and people operate in those lanes. Checks and balances, consensus decision-making. Not optimum, but far from the worst model.

A non-union shop, is practically speaking, a dictatorship. If the dictator is benelovent and wise, things can get done. If not, the almost universal tendency is for management to laager the wagons, and see the workers as their immediate threat. Target fixation occurs (on both sides) as everyone takes their eye off the ball of running a company and rushes to secure the spoils of a thousand small, and ultimately inconsequensial fights, while the ship of the company is going towards the shoals.

 

[993_Pilot]

It is management that keeps a company alive and because you don't feel like you make enough money you percieve it to be greed?

It is management that raids corporations then leave with millions of dollars of bonus. That is true greed.

Bernie Madoff (Madoff Investment Securities)

Bernard Ebbers (Worldcom)

Jeffrey Skilling & Ken Lay (Enron)

Alan H. Fishman (Washington Mutual)

Phillip R. Bennett (Refco)

Stephen C. Hilbert (Conseco)

None were union members, but all were management, and members of the True Greed Club! All told this group alone probably lost 100's of Billions for their investors. I wouldn't even want to venture a guess as to the loss of jobs and the effect these guys have had on peoples lives . . . some even committed suicide! That is true Greed. It is this sort of folks that caused the financial crisis that the world is experiencing right now. Unfortunately, there are lots more where this group came from.

Unions don't ask for big money because of fairness or to keep the company from going out of business, they do it out of greed...

Companies get a union when they deserve one. It is management that consistently fails to live up to the promises that they make. When that happens time after time, pretty soon you find yourself working for a company that doesn't even resemble the one you hired on to. Flops has been through 4 different management teams, and not a single one has lived up to what they said they would. Our current management team is on their second attempt, after their first attempt was cut short. Whether the current backers will give them enough time to ride out the world financial crisis and get the company turned around remains to be seen. You can rant all you want about our choice to stay or leave, but life is never that simple. For most of us, there are other considerations like other family members jobs, proximity to extended family, realestate to sell in a depressed market, etc. Flops didn't have a union for 7 years, and we see where that got us. We went from being the highest paid fractional to the lowest. I'll take my chance with the 1108... It is about time that the front line employees were compensated fairly!

 

[B19 Flyer]

The fact that out of the 4 Major Fractional Companies, ONLY the Company with a Pilot Contract in force has not Laid Off or Furloughed Pilots during this just short of a Depression economy.

That's not to say that NetJets won't at some point down the road.

But it does illustrate just how strong a company can become when they give up some control (which a CBA demands) and make their front line employees (Pilots) partners in the business.

Its only little man management that can't accept that their Pilots might have something more to contribute to the company beyond just flying the airplane. Make them Partners in the Business, by treating them well and compensating them fairly, and a stronger company just might emerge.

NetJets is a classic example. Hope you guys stay strong and no one gets let go before the upswing.


Freedom is Not Free

I haven't ignored it, but when NJ gets hammered it's going to get hammered a lot worse than all the others combined. The bigger the payroll, the bigger the CBA, the harder it's going to fall.

And as I've stated before, will NJASAP open the contract and save jobs or will it let the bottom of the seniority list bite the dust. My bet? You low seniority guys are going to be toast, and I feel really bad for you.