B19 Flyer

[fischman]

The turmoil at FLOPS is a great example of why unions suck.

1108 has nothing to do with the turmoil at FLOPS and YOU KNOW IT.

Stop spreading lies.

 

[fob727]

Amusing post

First, I do work in 121 and I contribute to the industry every day by what I do now and have done in the past for a living. How do you contribute?

My opinion of unions on this website is designed to improve pilots lives by exposing the grimy underbelly of behind the scenes relationships between unions and companies that union members have been blinded to by their union. Because you love your precious union, you think they can do no wrong. I've seen how they work from the inside. You have no clue the damage a union can do to your career. I'm not a union buster, if you want to work for a union... knock your socks off. Just leave everybody else alone if you don't have one. The turmoil at FLOPS is a great example of why unions suck.

B19, I find this post quite amusing but pathetic.

If you truely believe being a trade unionist is damaging, come over to some other forums(ie.-majors, cargo, nationals) to post your views. I know some union members that disagree with you.
I, personaly, would welcome it. Please save our careers!

While I have no particular love of unions, I find them necessary because of people like you and are the mechanism WE have been forced to use. Inept management with failed business models has made them a requirement.

It would be surprising to hear what contributions you have made to the 121 world, and now the fractionals; other than the lining of managements pockets, soured labor relations, degradation of services, and furloughs.


It is obvious that you are focusing on one group, the pilots at Flight Options. The threads you post in make it undeniable. Dividing the pilots, lowering expectations, creating fear and alienating other groups inside the company from the pilots are your goals.

Spout all the nonsense you want, only the uneducated will believe it. Improving pilots lives, what a joke!

 

[Pervis]

Come on folks. Don't bother bantering words with someone who clearly has no idea of what he/she speaks. Besides, he/she no doubt does post on the majors board under another anonymous.

 

[fischman]

Besides, he/she no doubt does post on the majors board under another anonymous.

:laugh:

 

[fischman]

B19, I find this post quite amusing but pathetic.

If you truely believe being a trade unionist is damaging, come over to some other forums(ie.-majors, cargo, nationals) to post your views. I know some union members that disagree with you.
I, personaly, would welcome it. Please save our careers!

While I have no particular love of unions, I find them necessary because of people like you and are the mechanism WE have been forced to use. Inept management with failed business models has made them a requirement.

It would be surprising to hear what contributions you have made to the 121 world, and now the fractionals; other than the lining of managements pockets, soured labor relations, degradation of services, and furloughs.


It is obvious that you are focusing on one group, the pilots at Flight Options. The threads you post in make it undeniable. Dividing the pilots, lowering expectations, creating fear and alienating other groups inside the company from the pilots are your goals.

Spout all the nonsense you want, only the uneducated will believe it. Improving pilots lives, what a joke!

Another lie by B19. He does not work for a 121 carrier.

 

[shanes123]

B19 takes a break

If you look at B19 posts he didnt post from 3/11-3/19 Same Time frame BT was on vacation riding around in a Flops Beechjet with his wife on vacation. Coincidence?? Maybe. But if I where a betting man. Oh and this is the same week Flops chopped 50 more pilots..

 

[brokeflyer]

He would fit right into AIG.....he's out enjoying life on vacation USING a company jet while he ruins pilots lives....

should be illegal. The nerve to think unions are bad.....HA

 

[B19 Flyer]

I feel flattered you are reading my posts....

If you look at B19 posts he didnt post from 3/11-3/19 Same Time frame BT was on vacation riding around in a Flops Beechjet with his wife on vacation. Coincidence?? Maybe. But if I where a betting man. Oh and this is the same week Flops chopped 50 more pilots..

Once again, the conspiracy is again out there.. let me point you back to the first post on this thread:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showpost.php?p=1736890&postcount=1

Now, with that stated... you are actually watching how I post? I either should feel honored or creeped out by it.

If you were NJW I would say you were stalking me, but instead I'll say that I feel flattered you are reading my posts. I have a lot more class than she did.

There is no conspiracy and I'm sorry that can't educate you folks every day. But the fact is you are getting exactly what you asked for in your attempts to put that union in place. FLOPS has over three years of stagnation, layoffs and turmoil just like I predicted. The company is still hanging on and it's not because the union has anything to do with it. The union has hurt the growth of the company and is an ongoing threat.

Oh, and waco... I know you are going to chime in and say what you always say. I'll give you the attention now so you feel good about yourself.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Ahh.. yes I do....

Another lie by B19. He does not work for a 121 carrier.

Ahh.. yes I do.... and with the exception of two years consulting for fracs, I've worked in 121 for over two decades.

But you know that anyway.. and the beautiful thing here is that I've never told a single lie on these boards. You guys just can't believe that the union attitude is so far out of touch with real management.

Everything I write is what management truly thinks but will never state because they can't and it's not politically correct. They need to protect the entire company so they have to pull back and can't express their opinions openly as I can through my experience. I was muzzled too when I was in that position.

Unions don't care about anybody thinks. They are greedy, selfish and will use any method to achieve their goals. They don't care who they hurt or how bad the damage is.

Yes, fischman I work in 121. I'm proud of being non-union and the fact that I care more about the big picture of company, family than unions do.

 

[BeeDubya]

You know, B19, there is a very easy way to put to bed all the misinformation about who you are: simply reveal your identity.

I'll show you exactly what I mean: BeeDubya is Brian Ward, NetJets' Citation X Pilot and NJASAP Steward.

Done. No questions about who I am.

Fraternally,
Brian

 

[shanes123]

Ahh.. yes I do....
Quote:
Originally Posted by fischman
Another lie by B19. He does not work for a 121 carrier.

Ahh.. yes I do.... and with the exception of two years consulting for fracs, I've worked in 121 for over two decades.

But you know that anyway.. and the beautiful thing here is that I've never told a single lie on these boards. You guys just can't believe that the union attitude is so far out of touch with real management.

Everything I write is what management truly thinks but will never state because they can't and it's not politically correct. They need to protect the entire company so they have to pull back and can't express their opinions openly as I can through my experience. I was muzzled too when I was in that position.

Unions don't care about anybody thinks. They are greedy, selfish and will use any method to achieve their goals. They don't care who they hurt or how bad the damage is.

Yes, fischman I work in 121. I'm proud of being non-union and the fact that I care more about the big picture of company, family than unions do.
__________________
Be careful what you ask for...

 

[shanes123]

actually Bob I dont read your posts. Just checked your posting history when I heard you where on vacation and wanted to see if it lined up. AND IT DID!!. I couldnt stand you when I was there and I am anxiously waiting for the day that you get booted on the street. Gives me a little pleasure knowing that I am the one that pretty much confirmed your identity. Oh and be careful what you say I am good friends with someone that works with you everyday. Thats why my sources are so accurate. You never know who your real friends are. Hows it feel to live like that? Really must chaffed you to be outtted by a snobby NJ captain..

 

[fischman]

Ahh.. yes I do.... and with the exception of two years consulting for fracs, I've worked in 121 for over two decades.

But you know that anyway.. and the beautiful thing here is that I've never told a single lie on these boards. You guys just can't believe that the union attitude is so far out of touch with real management.

Everything I write is what management truly thinks but will never state because they can't and it's not politically correct. They need to protect the entire company so they have to pull back and can't express their opinions openly as I can through my experience. I was muzzled too when I was in that position.

Unions don't care about anybody thinks. They are greedy, selfish and will use any method to achieve their goals. They don't care who they hurt or how bad the damage is.

Yes, fischman I work in 121. I'm proud of being non-union and the fact that I care more about the big picture of company, family than unions do.

You are a LIAR! If you work at a 121 carrier, why do you only post your anti-union drivel on the Fracs forum? Why not on the majors forum? I've already heard your lies about being on the 91k team, you have multiple screen names, and that you have friends who work for fracs. BULL. All LIES.

Prove me wrong. Start posting your anti-union crap on the 121 forums.

No. You do NOT work for a 121 carrier. I searched the DOT. There are NONE that meet the descriptions you provided. You are a LIAR.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Why are you so obsessed about me?

You are a LIAR! If you work at a 121 carrier, why do you only post your anti-union drivel on the Fracs forum? Why not on the majors forum? I've already heard your lies about being on the 91k team, you have multiple screen names, and that you have friends who work for fracs. BULL. All LIES.

Prove me wrong. Start posting your anti-union crap on the 121 forums.

No. You do NOT work for a 121 carrier. I searched the DOT. There are NONE that meet the descriptions you provided. You are a LIAR.

Really. You're also funny and why are you so obsessed about me?

I do post on other forums, but I don't ever venture beyond this forum on fliteinfo because I know how I get stalked. You look on other forums and other sites such as airlinepilotcentral and you'll find me there. My style is no different, just a different screen name.

As a union member, you don't want to hear the truth of management. You want to believe that you and your bretheren are loved and adored. Not true fischman. Unions are despised by management because they create situations that can bring doom, turmoil and financial ruin to a well run company.

Unions are only good for union members, and that is questionable at best. I've seen many union members get cast aside by the "forget the bottom third and save the pay and work rules for the top two/thirds" mentality of unions that you so adore. If you were on that bottom third, I have confidence that you would feel quite so secure with your CBA and the union attitude.

There are international carriers without unions fischman. I know because I work for one.

Everything I've stated is true. I was on the work group drafting the rules that eventually became 91K. I worked directly with Katherine and the folks in the FAA who were tasked with creating a formal package to remove the "cowboy" operators.

And furthermore, the funniest thing of all to me is that I have been truthful and people like you think I'm lying. I've worked for charter 135 through legacy and all points in-between. Not by choice because of unions, but it is what it is.

Your disbelief is fine with me because it just feeds my laughter.

You can't believe it's true.. so don't. I haven't a thing to prove to you or anybody else.

Either way, your union will eventually fail you and you will blame management because it's the union way.

You are the type of guy that can't believe you can't pay your mortgage because you bought more house than you could afford, or too much car. Yes fischman, you are the type of guy that will never believe or admit that your CBA was too much for the company too afford so you will blame management. When was the last time any union took responsibility for a problem? Has it ever happened? I can't remember ever where it has, but management always has to step up to the plate to fix whatever has gone wrong and take it on the chin.

All those union members that will get hurt in the upcoming months from the greed of the CBA will not blame the economy, they will blame the company and say it was mismanaged regardless of the what is happening in the rest of the country.

The funniest thing of all is that the union will not adjust the contract fischman. It will keep in where it is and blame the company when times get tight and it becomes difficult to pay for.

No fischman, I'm not a liar, just somebody that has been there and experienced the union pain first hand and is not scared to pass my experiences on to anybody that cares to listen.

 

[shanes123]

Your a Liar you been caught and you sound like the desperate pathetic POS that you are. Your house of cards are crumbling

 

[fischman]

Really. You're also funny and why are you so obsessed about me? I like ousting LIARS.

I do post on other forums, but I don't ever venture beyond this forum on fliteinfo because I know how I get stalked. You look on other forums and other sites such as airlinepilotcentral and you'll find me there. My style is no different, just a different screen name. Go post yourself a thread on the 121 forums here on FI.com. I want to read it.

As a union member, you don't want to hear the truth of management. I am very familiar with the truth of management. You want to believe that you and your bretheren are loved and adored. Not true fischman. Unions are despised by management because they create situations that can bring doom, turmoil and financial ruin to a well run company. Then why does NetJets management use the union as a marketing tool for safety???

Unions are only good for union members, and that is questionable at best. That is why it is called a UNION. It serves the DUES paying members. I've seen many union members get cast aside by the "forget the bottom third and save the pay and work rules for the top two/thirds" mentality of unions that you so adore. If you were on that bottom third, I have confidence that you would feel quite so secure with your CBA and the union attitude. It's the Union way. Seniority rules.

There are international carriers without unions fischman. I know because I work for one. Really??? WHICH ONE?

You can't believe it's true.. so don't. I haven't a thing to prove to you or anybody else. If you want credibility you do.

Either way, your union will eventually fail you and you will blame management because it's the union way. How will that happen? The only way a union can "fail" is if it stops serving the best interest of it's members. the NetJets pilots have successfully ousted 2 unions that did not have our best interest at heart. As long as there are people like myself, flylow, CA1900, and BeeDubya to keep the leadership honest failure is not a possibility.
You are the type of guy that can't believe you can't pay your mortgage because you bought more house than you could afford, or too much car. Never been late on a car or mortgage payment. Try again. Yes fischman, you are the type of guy that will never believe or admit that your CBA was too much for the company too afford so you will blame management. If they couldn't afford it, why did they sign it?



The funniest thing of all is that the union will not adjust the contract fischman. .

That is why it is called a "contract".

 

[CA1900]

If you were on that bottom third, I have confidence that you would feel quite so secure with your CBA and the union attitude.

I'm in the bottom third, and would rather be temporarily out of work from a well-paying job, than be continuously employed at a mediocre one.

You are the type of guy that can't believe you can't pay your mortgage because you bought more house than you could afford...

No, he's the type of guy who can actually afford a mortgage because of collective bargaining. My last job was non-union, and was nothing but turmoil.

The funniest thing of all is that the union will not adjust the contract fischman. It will keep in where it is and blame the company when times get tight and it becomes difficult to pay for.

The salary of the pilots has no bearing on the number of them that the company needs.

 

[brokeflyer]

we dont make enough money to "alter" the contract to give money back. I can't tell you the specfics because of confidentiality laws, but, our contract don't even register on the bottom line.....it's that small.

The money we make now IS for the bad times......when things get good then we can maybe get some more money.



Bring it on

 

[B19 Flyer]

Labor and fuel.

we dont make enough money to "alter" the contract to give money back. I can't tell you the specfics because of confidentiality laws, but, our contract don't even register on the bottom line.....it's that small.

The money we make now IS for the bad times......when things get good then we can maybe get some more money.



Bring it on

Two largest expenses for any entity operating aircraft: Labor and fuel.

It's laughable that you think your contract doesn't register on the bottom line...

 

[imacdog]

Yep and our labor is paid for by our owners and cardholders in their contracts. Don't worry, it's covered.

So really B, why no posts in the 121 forums? You seem to have quite the impressive background in 121; I think you're doing the airline forum a disservice by not sharing your vast amount of knowledge there.

 

[brokeflyer]

Two largest expenses for any entity operating aircraft: Labor and fuel.

It's laughable that you think your contract doesn't register on the bottom line...

well I've seen the numbers....that is why the company isnt asking for conssesions.

I would tell you but it would violate confidentiality agreements.....sorry.

 

[wacoflyr]

B19, if you really want a coherent argument, why do you reply so selectively? Granted, there are a lot of people to reply to. But you consistently fail to answer several relevant questions.

1. Why do you post here istead of on the majors board, if that is who you work for?

2. Why do you consistently suggest that we are less important than management, despite that fact that we are the ones who deal with owner's trials and tribulations, and our own management constantly emphasizes how important our customer service is to our companies? I mean, if management thinks we are as important as any other element of the company, why would you deny this?

3. Why do you constantly bring up conspiracy theories, when no one else even knows what you mean?

Wacoflyr

 

[wacoflyr]

What bothers me the most is that this thread had actually slipped to the second page, and here it is back again. (sigh)

Waco

 

[hyflyin]

What bothers me the most is that this thread had actually slipped to the second page, and here it is back again. (sigh)

Waco

Ditto

 

[hyflyin]

I'm in the bottom third, and would rather be temporarily out of work from a well-paying job, than be continuously employed at a mediocre one.


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No, he's the type of guy who can actually afford a mortgage because of collective bargaining. My last job was non-union, and was nothing but turmoil.



The salary of the pilots has no bearing on the number of them that the company needs.

What he said! Bottom third baby, such is life.

 

[B19 Flyer]

B19, if you really want a coherent argument, why do you reply so selectively? Granted, there are a lot of people to reply to. But you consistently fail to answer several relevant questions.

1. Why do you post here istead of on the majors board, if that is who you work for?

2. Why do you consistently suggest that we are less important than management, despite that fact that we are the ones who deal with owner's trials and tribulations, and our own management constantly emphasizes how important our customer service is to our companies? I mean, if management thinks we are as important as any other element of the company, why would you deny this?

3. Why do you constantly bring up conspiracy theories, when no one else even knows what you mean?

Wacoflyr

Waco,

1) I post on the fractional board because I was involved in the development of the fractional industry as it stands today as a part of the original FAA rulemaking committee. The fact that I work now back in 121 is meaningless in this conversation, just like you being a pilot in a non-union company is meaningless.

I do post on the other boards in different forums. I don't use this screen name on other websites. Unions like to silence those that disagree with their theories and concepts because reality hurts.


2) I have never once suggested that pilots are less important than management. That is your perception. I do think that if you disagree with your management, a union will not help your cause where becoming involved with them will.

I have clearly stated that unions are less important than management. I have never stated that pilots should not be well paid. I have always stated that a union CBA is what becomes crippling to an air carrier because it removes options from management in regards to flexibility of payroll, work rules, scope clauses and creates a division of turmoil within the company, especially during periods of negotiation.

Customer service? How does that come into the picture? That's a given... I've never discussed that on these threads.


3)You seem to think that I post to keep this thread near the top. That is your personal conspiracy theory. The fact is, when I am gone for a period of time, the thread will fall. If I happen to log in and feel that I need to respond, I do. You seem to enjoy pointing that out. Like I previously stated.. it's meaningless.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Deak with it...

What bothers me the most is that this thread had actually slipped to the second page, and here it is back again. (sigh)

Waco

Deal with it. I'll respond to posts on my schedule, not yours.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Yep and our labor is paid for by our owners and cardholders in their contracts. Don't worry, it's covered.

So really B, why no posts in the 121 forums? You seem to have quite the impressive background in 121; I think you're doing the airline forum a disservice by not sharing your vast amount of knowledge there.

As stated, I do post. Not on this website and not using this screen name.

If you think that your labor is completely paid by management fees, you are only fooling yourself and it shows that you don't understand the financial structure of a fractional (or any airline). You realize that every 100K salary costs the company on the average an additional 70% once company contributions to taxes, benefits and training are figured in, right?

 

[wacoflyr]

Some of us contribute more to the industry than others. People like you just fly the line and take advantage of the efforts that people like me put into making things better.

2) I have never once suggested that pilots are less important than management.


These two quotes contradict each other. Earlier in this thread you suggested that while you would never work for me, I might someday work for you. The threat was implied, but clear. In today's atmosphere of rampant corporate greed, it is impossible not to be on the defensive.
You rant against unions, and yet I have not seen you put forth an alternative(you might have somewhere, can't read them all). You tell us to stand on our own feet, yet every single airline or fractional management team that I have ever heard of treats us in the way that they are forced to by circumstances; as a group. And yet you don't want us to behave as a group. Do you seriously think I can waltz into the DO's office and have a discussion about a raise? The laughter would interrupt the work of dozens of managers. Corporate greed is a given. After all, they are supposed to add as much to the bottom line as possible. Yes, most individual managers are good moral people. But they look to find dollars in every corner that they see, which leads them, inevitably, to my paycheck. They act as a group, called management, and work in a system that rewards cutting the pay of the groups of employees in their control. And that is what they have done.
You don't like the groups known as unions. Fine. Please clearly state what alternative I, as an individual pilot have to negotiate my pay. Don't tell me I don't have to struggle to get paid what I am worth. We both know I do. So tell me, what do I do?
How do I, as an individual, get the group known as management to pay me appropriately for my services? I sure can't rely on altruism. Be specific please. I've got my popcorn ready.

Wacoflyr

 

[fischman]

I do post on the other boards in different forums. I don't use this screen name on other websites. Unions like to silence those that disagree with their theories and concepts because reality hurts.

On what forums under what screen names?