B19 Flyer

[shanes123]

Deal with it. I'll respond to posts on my schedule, not yours.

BT was on vacation last week riding around in a FLOPS beechjet and probably didnt bother to bring his laptop

 

[imacdog]

As stated, I do post. Not on this website and not using this screen name.

If you think that your labor is completely paid by management fees, you are only fooling yourself and it shows that you don't understand the financial structure of a fractional (or any airline). You realize that every 100K salary costs the company on the average an additional 70% once company contributions to taxes, benefits and training are figured in, right?

Yeah and I'm sure the company never thought of that when drafting the contracts. I certainly had NOOOOOOOO idea that the company spends money on training for the pilots and benefits; that's really insightful stuff there, B.

So which other forums do you post in and what user name do you go by? I'd love to be educated on your vast airline experience.

 

[brokeflyer]

You realize that every 100K salary costs the company on the average an additional 70% once company contributions to taxes, benefits and training are figured in, right?

well they better raise the rate, cause I'm about 35k/yr short of that new boat.....

We still dont make enough.....but we are making progress....can't eat a big mac in one bite ya know.

 

[fischman]

....can't eat a big mac in one bite ya know.

I accept your challenge!!!

 

[B19 Flyer]

The value of anything is what somebody is willing to pay for it, not a penny more.

Some of us contribute more to the industry than others. People like you just fly the line and take advantage of the efforts that people like me put into making things better.

2) I have never once suggested that pilots are less important than management.


These two quotes contradict each other. Earlier in this thread you suggested that while you would never work for me, I might someday work for you. The threat was implied, but clear. In today's atmosphere of rampant corporate greed, it is impossible not to be on the defensive.
You rant against unions, and yet I have not seen you put forth an alternative(you might have somewhere, can't read them all). You tell us to stand on our own feet, yet every single airline or fractional management team that I have ever heard of treats us in the way that they are forced to by circumstances; as a group. And yet you don't want us to behave as a group. Do you seriously think I can waltz into the DO's office and have a discussion about a raise? The laughter would interrupt the work of dozens of managers. Corporate greed is a given. After all, they are supposed to add as much to the bottom line as possible. Yes, most individual managers are good moral people. But they look to find dollars in every corner that they see, which leads them, inevitably, to my paycheck. They act as a group, called management, and work in a system that rewards cutting the pay of the groups of employees in their control. And that is what they have done.
You don't like the groups known as unions. Fine. Please clearly state what alternative I, as an individual pilot have to negotiate my pay. Don't tell me I don't have to struggle to get paid what I am worth. We both know I do. So tell me, what do I do?
How do I, as an individual, get the group known as management to pay me appropriately for my services? I sure can't rely on altruism. Be specific please. I've got my popcorn ready.

Wacoflyr

Those two statements don't contradict each other, how do you figure?

Pilots are not expected to contribute to the industry. The are an integral part of the fabric, but are only there to execute the rules that others put together.

Management on the other hand is paid to make the rules and contribute to the industry. Pilots are not.

What I see that I wrote is a fair statement. If you want to contribute to the industry, take the risk and step into management. You think by flying you take all the risk. Wrong.. you don't. Most accidents that happen are system failures with multiple facets to them. It's rarely only one thing.

In either case, both pilots and management are important to the industry, and are required componants in the industry.

Unions however are not required in the industry. All air carriers have pilots, all have management. Not all of them have unions.

By your choice to become a pilot at an air carrier, part of the fabric is that all pilots are paid to scale. If you want to fly and negotiated, then fly contract for yourself. You accepted that as part of the employement, you knew that when you became a pilot.

The value of anything is what somebody is willing to pay for it, not a penny more.

 

[wacoflyr]

By your choice to become a pilot at an air carrier, part of the fabric is that all pilots are paid to scale. If you want to fly and negotiated, then fly contract for yourself. You accepted that as part of the employement, you knew that when you became a pilot.

The value of anything is what somebody is willing to pay for it, not a penny more.

In my opinion, the two statements were contradictory, but we'll leave that aside. You are dodging the issue that pilots, as an industry are not fairly compensated. My management has stated this. Historically, we have lost somewhere between a third and a half of our compensation, depending on who you talk to. I can safely say I am undercompensated, and I don't think you can argue that point. So I asked you the question; what do I do? Your response is, quite literally, that I am only going to get paid what management is willing to pay me. In other words, there is nothing I can do about it. Well, some pilots, perhaps most, don't want to just take that any more. And no, they cannot easily just go to the highest bidder. We all know that the seniority system, adopted by carriers even where there is no union, forces us to stay, for the most part, with one carrier. So you would leave pilots with no mechanism to negotiate with.
In an ironic way, unions are like democracy. Neither one works particularly well, and they don't really satisfy anybody. But, usually, they are better than the alternative. My company doesn't have a union, and I'm glad because management here seems to be responsive. If I were at some other carriers, however, I would, with regret, pay my dues and hope the union could help right the injustice that some management teams perpetrate.

You don't want pilots to negotiate, B19. Deal with the fact that if you don't treat them as a vital, intelligent group of people who make your industry possible, they will organize and force you to pay them more than you want to. Play fair, B19, or get a union. It's that simple.

Wacoflyr

 

[fischman]

The value of anything is what somebody is willing to pay for it, not a penny more.

That includes a CBA.

 

[shanes123]

STOP engaging this idiot..hes being paid by FLOPS to spread is Sh$T ...there are such more important topics to discuss in this industry with the econmy the way it is..Lets all stop replying to BT eventualy he will go away..Or now that Ricci took back over he will probably be fired shortly anyway and he will be gone..Looks like CS is on the verge of another furlough and NJ is still hanging in there..This is whats important..Getting our brothers back into there lively hoods

 

[B19 Flyer]

STOP engaging this idiot..hes being paid by FLOPS to spread is Sh$T ...there are such more important topics to discuss in this industry with the econmy the way it is..Lets all stop replying to BT eventualy he will go away..Or now that Ricci took back over he will probably be fired shortly anyway and he will be gone..Looks like CS is on the verge of another furlough and NJ is still hanging in there..This is whats important..Getting our brothers back into there lively hoods

First, I'm not an idiot. I don't belong to a union.

Next, as this thread is about the moderator correctly clarifying that I don't work for FLOPS, you are once again.. barking up the wrong tree. woof woof.

The furloughs that are happening are companies making adjustments where they have to. NJ is handcuffed by a CBA and they will hang on just as long as they can before the do.. but when they do it's going to be a lot more miserable than anything the rest of the industry will see. The rest of the company will get shredded first, and then.. and only then will the company furlough pilots.

 

[Captain Dork]

this means divorce....

I lay in bed thinking about the bizarre domestic analagies this company can represent:

A man or woman changes spouse five times in ten years. The person is unstable obviously. Raytheon Hart, FlightOptions Ricci, Raytheon Nahil, Raytheon Scheringa, FlightOptions HIG Ricci, FlightOptions Ricci Brantley HIG. This is in home terms the house with crap laying all over the front yard, the screen door with no hydraulic spring, peeling paint.

The man of the house has a job selling. First he has 1050 clients, he diminishes over a four year period down to 550 clients. He tells himself he's right-sizing his customer base as he's pounding his ninth beer down of the day. Thing go wrong during the day, he blames the customer. The economy softens, he loses more customers. Now 400 of his customers are at his competitors and 150 are out of business. He was the cheap supplier, so more of the customers were at the edge. The man of the house is driving a eight year old Buick with 140,000 miles on it. He decides he's going ot reinvent his business. His competitors laugh.

He decides he's going to sell a different product-this new super-duper thing that going to change everything.

You smell stale beer, see the rumped shirt and the old Buick, you remember his house, the change of spouses, and you say to yourself, this guy's a ______

 

[Hogprint]

NJ is handcuffed by a CBA

You've stated this several times and I've challenged you at least twice about it. How is NJA handcuffed by a CBA they helped negotiate?

 

[B19 Flyer]

You've stated this several times and I've challenged you at least twice about it. How is NJA handcuffed by a CBA they helped negotiate?

United, American and Delta all had industry leading contracts.

None of them were "hampered" 18 months after they were signed and if the same question was posed as you are today the answer would have been no.

However, by the end of the 2nd year, the most unionized airline was in bankruptcy (United)and the next unionized was teetering on bankruptcy (American). The least unionized was still more than 2 years away (Delta).

So while the NJA contract may not appear to be hampering anybody yet, historically, industry leading contracts stretch the limits, even in good times.

My predicition last fall (even before the turndown) was the NJA was going to have to suck it up before the end of this year. We still have 9 months to go.

When it comes to unions, history always repeats itself, it's rare that a union learns from their mistakes. All of the situations above could have been avoided by the union acknowledging the change in the economy.

NJA? They can't adjust as well as the others based on the CBA. When the cuts come, they will be larger and deeper. More people will be hurt than all the other fracs combined.

 

[fischman]

More people will be hurt than all the other fracs combined.

NetJets is bigger than all the other fracs combined. It's like saying you have farther to fall off the summit of Mt. Everest than off Pike's peak. DUH!!!

 

[CA1900]

Admit it, Fisch -- you're just a "cowboy" because you won't accept a broken airplane.

 

[fischman]

Cowboys are awesome.

 

[wacoflyr]

After I implied that this guy was narcissistic and he called me an a$$, I tried to engage him in an open, honest discussion about what recourse we pilots have. As always, he has dodged the tough questions. He cut off the conversation when I made direct arguments against his major points.
It is clear to everybody on this forum that pilots, as a group, are underpaid, and that we have lost somewhere between a third and a half of our earning power in the last 40 years. Management, of course, has gained considerable earning power, at our expense. What do we do about it? B19 would have us "stand on our own two feet" instead of organizing. I asked him how I, an underpaid individual, would then negotiate my pay? Now he states that I am paid to scale, and knew this when I became a pilot, thereby refusing to answer a simple, direct question that is at the heart of his whole argument. I guess standing on my own two feet isn't going to help, after all.
He knows that the only way we can negotiate is to organize. But you won't admit that, will you B19? You want us to act as individuals, so that you can underpay us as a group. You say you suffered working at a carrier that had unions. Look at all the pilots that have suffered layoffs while management took bonuses. Remember AMR after they negotiated pay cuts from the flight attendants? It cuts both ways, B19. If you don't give us a way to negotiate, we will create our own.

It would be refreshing if you respond to my points, but I don't think you will. You can't, really. You are wrong.

Wacoflyr

 

[G4dude]

After I implied that this guy was narcissistic and he called me an a$$, I tried to engage him in an open, honest discussion about what recourse we pilots have. As always, he has dodged the tough questions. He cut off the conversation when I made direct arguments against his major points.
It is clear to everybody on this forum that pilots, as a group, are underpaid, and that we have lost somewhere between a third and a half of our earning power in the last 40 years. Management, of course, has gained considerable earning power, at our expense. What do we do about it? B19 would have us "stand on our own two feet" instead of organizing. I asked him how I, an underpaid individual, would then negotiate my pay? Now he states that I am paid to scale, and knew this when I became a pilot, thereby refusing to answer a simple, direct question that is at the heart of his whole argument. I guess standing on my own two feet isn't going to help, after all.
He knows that the only way we can negotiate is to organize. But you won't admit that, will you B19? You want us to act as individuals, so that you can underpay us as a group. You say you suffered working at a carrier that had unions. Look at all the pilots that have suffered layoffs while management took bonuses. Remember AMR after they negotiated pay cuts from the flight attendants? It cuts both ways, B19. If you don't give us a way to negotiate, we will create our own.

It would be refreshing if you respond to my points, but I don't think you will. You can't, really. You are wrong.


If we voluntarily work for what we are paid, then we are not underpaid. The marketplace compensates us adequately, or else there would be a shortage of pilots in the employment pool. I have a successful business on the side, and I suggest any pilots desiring more money do the same. There doesn't appear to be any more salary increases in the offing any time soon, dear colleagues.

Wacoflyr

If we voluntarily work for what we are paid, then we are not underpaid. The marketplace compensates us adequately, or else there would be a shortage of pilots in the employment pool.
I have a successful business on the side, and I suggest any pilots desiring more money do the same. There doesn't appear to be any more salary increases in the offing any time soon, dear colleagues. Study up, learn other skills, and create more income. Maybe we all will survive President Obama's well intentioned dismantling of the economy.

 

[PCL_128]

However, by the end of the 2nd year, the most unionized airline was in bankruptcy (United)

The most unionized airline is SWA, not UAL. As someone who claims to be so informed on 121 matters, I would expect you to know this.

The most unionized airline has never been in bankruptcy. In fact, they've never been close. The most unionized airline has been growing by leaps and bounds for decades. The most unionized airline is the biggest domestic airline by a considerable margin, and is still planning on additional growth in years ahead. The most unionized airline has been continuously profitable for a record span.

Anything else you want to know about the "most unionized airline?"

 

[FR8DOG777]

You know, B19, there is a very easy way to put to bed all the misinformation about who you are: simply reveal your identity.

I'll show you exactly what I mean: BeeDubya is Brian Ward, NetJets' Citation X Pilot and NJASAP Steward.

Done. No questions about who I am.

Fraternally,
Brian

Hey Brian how you doing these days? Why don't you educate O'l 19 about our reg following law abiding management and your free all expense paid trip to cgf for not wanting to fly a plane with half the circuit breakers in the panel popped. Good times, of course MANAGEMENT didn't have to fly the aircraft or risk getting ramped did they?

 

[Flex-ible]

Anything else you want to know about the "most unionized airline?"

Serious question: what does it mean to be "most unionized"? I thought it was like being pregnant: either you are or you are not.

 

[PCL_128]

Serious question: what does it mean to be "most unionized"? I thought it was like being pregnant: either you are or you are not.

It means the greatest percentage of the labor force that is unionized. Almost every labor group at SWA is unionized.

 

[B19 Flyer]

The most unionized airline is SWA, not UAL. As someone who claims to be so informed on 121 matters, I would expect you to know this.

The most unionized airline has never been in bankruptcy. In fact, they've never been close. The most unionized airline has been growing by leaps and bounds for decades. The most unionized airline is the biggest domestic airline by a considerable margin, and is still planning on additional growth in years ahead. The most unionized airline has been continuously profitable for a record span.

Anything else you want to know about the "most unionized airline?"

You didn't read the post, did you?

I listed the 3 largest legacy carriers with industry leading contracts that were all signed in the 2000-2001 area of time. SWA isn't a legacy carrier, nor was it part of my example because it was not industry leading, although it was the best because it made the most sense. I also want to point out that the SWA contract is something nobody else would ever do because it means union members would have to accept risk and it ebs and flows with the success of the company. You can't compare your contract with the SWA contract because your contract will not accept risk by making profit sharing a substantial part of the contract.

With that stated, of the three that I listed, United was the largest carrier thus the most unionized in relationship to having the most unionized members vs non unionized in the company.

Of the three, the amount of employees represented by unions at Delta is by far the least. Thus, they are the least unionized carrier.

 

[B19 Flyer]

After I implied that this guy was narcissistic and he called me an a$$, I tried to engage him in an open, honest discussion about what recourse we pilots have. As always, he has dodged the tough questions. He cut off the conversation when I made direct arguments against his major points.
It is clear to everybody on this forum that pilots, as a group, are underpaid, and that we have lost somewhere between a third and a half of our earning power in the last 40 years. Management, of course, has gained considerable earning power, at our expense. What do we do about it? B19 would have us "stand on our own two feet" instead of organizing. I asked him how I, an underpaid individual, would then negotiate my pay? Now he states that I am paid to scale, and knew this when I became a pilot, thereby refusing to answer a simple, direct question that is at the heart of his whole argument. I guess standing on my own two feet isn't going to help, after all.
He knows that the only way we can negotiate is to organize. But you won't admit that, will you B19? You want us to act as individuals, so that you can underpay us as a group. You say you suffered working at a carrier that had unions. Look at all the pilots that have suffered layoffs while management took bonuses. Remember AMR after they negotiated pay cuts from the flight attendants? It cuts both ways, B19. If you don't give us a way to negotiate, we will create our own.

It would be refreshing if you respond to my points, but I don't think you will. You can't, really. You are wrong.

Wacoflyr

You seem to forget the original concept of unions.

Unions were developed to protect workers at a time where they were not making a wage they could feed their families on. There were no federal laws or opportunities to escape to a better life for various reasons such as geographical. This isn't true today.

You on the other hand made choice of career. You knew what you were getting yourself into when you made that choice. If it was all about the money, you should have gone to college and become a doctor or lawyer instead. You shouldn't be surprised at what you make. There is no negotiation of pay in aviation and the unions have seen to it.

Now, if you want to make more money in aviation, the traditional way is to work your way up the ladder to flying large airplanes internationally. The door is there for you, you just need to do it. Nobody is handcuffing you to a small salary. Economic times are tough now, but it wasn't that long ago where majors were hiring like crazy. You also don't have to work for a legacy carrier.. there are a lot of international carriers flying large equipment that will pay better than most. Is it all about the money though?

No.. it's not. It's about making the carrier pay what you think you are worth, not what the market or business plan will support.

 

[gunfyter]

Yes it IS all about the money....

What else would it be about?

Thats what business is about.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Yes it IS all about the money....

What else would it be about?

Thats what business is about.

According to most on this board, it's all about making management fix airplanes and run the company differently. They somehow think a CBA is going to fix all the things they hate about working for the company, which couldn't be further from the truth.

All the CBA affects is pay and work rules.

 

[gunfyter]

Well making the company fix airplanes etc., is about working conditions....

Otherwise you could wind up in a platinum jet / teterboro situation.

And that is MORE important than pay ... thanks for correcting me. I was assuming a company that fixes planes and obeys the FARs.

But the grievance provisions of a CBA can help with that....

 

[dime line]

Unions were developed to protect workers at a time where they were not making a wage they could feed their families on. There were no federal laws or opportunities to escape to a better life for various reasons such as geographical. This isn't true today

Oh wow, federal laws hu? Isn't true today...hu?

Go Jet 1st yr
23.00 X 74 (monly guar)=1702.00 X 12=20424 per yr

Horizon 1st yr
29.00 X 75 (monly guar)=2175.00 X 12 =26100 per yr

Pinnacle 1st yr
21.00 X 75 (monly guar)=1575.00 X 12 =18900 per yr

regular 10.00pr hr job
10.00 X 40hr =400 X 4=1600 X12 = 19200 per yr

they were not making a wage they could feed their families on

Spin these numbers moron!!!! Skanza jump in too!!!!

So in summary, Pilots have college, ratings and are gone from home.
The hourly worker, no college, no ratings, no gone from home

Looks to me like I'll take a professional union any day!

 

[B19 Flyer]

Oh wow, federal laws hu? Isn't true today...hu?

Go Jet 1st yr
23.00 X 74 (monly guar)=1702.00 X 12=20424 per yr

Horizon 1st yr
29.00 X 75 (monly guar)=2175.00 X 12 =26100 per yr

Pinnacle 1st yr
21.00 X 75 (monly guar)=1575.00 X 12 =18900 per yr

regular 10.00pr hr job
10.00 X 40hr =400 X 4=1600 X12 = 19200 per yr



Spin these numbers moron!!!! Skanza jump in too!!!!

So in summary, Pilots have college, ratings and are gone from home.
The hourly worker, no college, no ratings, no gone from home

Looks to me like I'll take a professional union any day!

Dimeline... NOBODY forced you to be a pilot. Nobody.

What they pay is not relevent. If you wanted to make money, you can do anything you want for a living.

When unions were developed THERE WERE NOT OTHER OPTIONS. They were limited by the type of work there was of the day.

Nobody is making you fly airplanes. That is a choice, not a mandate as it would have been 75 years ago.

Is it more important to feed your family or fly airplanes for a living?

If you are choosing to fly airplanes, deal with the low initial pay and the high rewards as seniority builds.

Blame the union for companies no longer hiring into the left seat like they used to. You wanted a seniority based system.. you got what you asked for.

There are few professions that can almost guarantee a near six figure income with only 10 years experience. Other professions have college expenses also, but few build wealth quicker over a decade.

Remember.. you made the choice. If you want the money, go with a bigger airplane, a larger company and take your career into your own hands rather than making somebody else live up to your expectations because you are too lazy to change jobs and take control over your career.

Federal laws are there to protect workers. They didn't exist back in those days dimeline.. you are working in one of the most highly regulated forms of employment possible.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Calling your bluff...

Oh wow, federal laws hu? Isn't true today...hu?

Go Jet 1st yr
23.00 X 74 (monly guar)=1702.00 X 12=20424 per yr

Horizon 1st yr
29.00 X 75 (monly guar)=2175.00 X 12 =26100 per yr

Pinnacle 1st yr
21.00 X 75 (monly guar)=1575.00 X 12 =18900 per yr

regular 10.00pr hr job
10.00 X 40hr =400 X 4=1600 X12 = 19200 per yr



Spin these numbers moron!!!! Skanza jump in too!!!!

So in summary, Pilots have college, ratings and are gone from home.
The hourly worker, no college, no ratings, no gone from home

Looks to me like I'll take a professional union any day!

I'll spin them... Those are first year pay, right?

What is the increase for 2nd year?

What is the 10 year pay?

Now start listing professions that equal that type of pay increase over that period of time.

 

[gunfyter]

I could have done almost anything else with my college degree and been better off financially than by being a pilot....

I think it was AC/DC that said:

"Its a long way to the top if you wanna Rock-n-Roll."​

And its a long way back to the bottom too.


We paid the PRICE ... to get where we are. You haven't paid it. Nothing gets me as PO'd as someone trying to devalue the worth of Pilots....

Thats why there are unions .... You want to buy me ... my blood sweat and tears at a cheap price.

I had a rough ride getting to where I am now, and I won't apologize for making a 6 figure salary. I worked hard for it, doing things other people won't do or can't do. Getting screwed along the way by people who devalue what it takes to do what we do.