AWA/USAir seniority integration??

[MickeySlapnutz]

MickeySlapnutz,
It's comments like yours that make me happy I'm furloughed from that angry mob of employees over at AA.

Great...its a win win then.

 

[MickeySlapnutz]

No staplers will happen. If its even suggested you're looking at WWIII. I do agree with the fences. Sorry, but the investors are in the driver's seat on this one.

Its not only being suggested, its more than likely a reality. So let the bombs fall.....only problem is your bombs are all duds. I mean what can you really do about it? If you think the investors wake up in the morning and care one wit about your seniority...than God bless. Go ask the TWA investors how much they fought for the TWA pilots.

Word of advice to you guys at AWA....vote out ALPA now and vote in your own in house union such as APA or what ever you want to call it,if you wish to put an end to this ALPA-ALPA merger policy bullstien. Not that it will matter too much...it will just put an end to the argument much more quickly. I know, I know....TWAdude and a bunch of other guys who are very happy to be furloughed from the angry AA guys will wet their pants over such an idea, but its your job at stake.

Love and kisses,
Mickey

 

[BeCareful!]

Comparisons between TWA/AA and AWA/US aren't valid. Not even close, considering the size of the carriers and the relative financial health at the time of announcement.

US is the airline everyone loves to hate, but the truth is that GE, Airbus, RSA, and a whole bunch of others see value in the franchise, the routes, everything. U's operating losses last quarter pale in comparison to Delta's, United's, and Northwest's. Profits could be just around the corner for U, but for these others, probably not.

The group just aquired over 1 billion $$ in RJ's and Mainline Replacement Jets......airlines on their "death beds" aren't typically capable of that.

I know a bunch of AWA guys think that by trash talking on the Internet they'll help themselves to a sweet A330 spot, flying three or four Trans Atlantic sorties a month, but it just ain't gonna happen. And why should it? Are the AWA pilots themselves responsible for their carrier's meager survival at this point? Certainly not any more than the US Air pilots are responsible for saving their airline! ($8 Billion investment!)

Ms. Slapnutz, your trash ain't even worth commenting on

And, I'm a nicer person than you are

 

[MickeySlapnutz]

The group just aquired over 1 billion $$ in RJ's and Mainline Replacement Jets......airlines on their "death beds" aren't typically capable of that.

[size=+2]TWA To Acquire 20 Boeing 757 Jetliners[/size]

ST. LOUIS, Feb. 12, 1996 -- Trans World Airlines, Inc. (AMEX: TWA) today announced it will acquire 20 new Boeing 757-200 aircraft, 10 to be purchased and 10 to be leased, and will have the ability to secure options for up to 20 additional 757 twinjets, The Boeing Company has confirmed. All the aircraft will be powered by Pratt & Whitney PW 2037 engines.

The first new aircraft delivery is scheduled for July 1996 with two additional deliveries in 1996. The new planes to be delivered in 1996 and 1997 will replace fourteen L-1011 jets currently operated by TWA. The remaining 757s will replace smaller standard-body aircraft that TWA plans to retire when their leases terminate. TWA announced it has secured financing for all aircraft it has ordered. There will be twelve 757 deliveries in 1997, two deliveries in 1998 and three deliveries in 1999.

Guess again.

 

[321 busdriver]

Now that's funny!

Better yet - DOB.

 

[321 busdriver]

Mickey, as BeCareful said, give it a rest. You're sounding more like an uninformed yahoo with every new post!

Comparisons between TWA/AA and AWA/US aren't valid. Not even close, considering the size of the carriers and the relative financial health at the time of announcement.

US is the airline everyone loves to hate, but the truth is that GE, Airbus, RSA, and a whole bunch of others see value in the franchise, the routes, everything. U's operating losses last quarter pale in comparison to Delta's, United's, and Northwest's. Profits could be just around the corner for U, but for these others, probably not.

The group just aquired over 1 billion $$ in RJ's and Mainline Replacement Jets......airlines on their "death beds" aren't typically capable of that.

I know a bunch of AWA guys think that by trash talking on the Internet they'll help themselves to a sweet A330 spot, flying three or four Trans Atlantic sorties a month, but it just ain't gonna happen. And why should it? Are the AWA pilots themselves responsible for their carrier's meager survival at this point? Certainly not any more than the US Air pilots are responsible for saving their airline! ($8 Billion investment!)

Ms. Slapnutz, your trash ain't even worth commenting on

And, I'm a nicer person than you are

 

[MickeySlapnutz]

"MOUNT LAUREL, N.J. (AP) — Before American bought TWA in 2001, the pilots union agreed to allow their employer to go into bankruptcy and waive a contract provision that would have required an arbiter to oversee the integration of the seniority list for the two companies.

The pilots union supported the sale because at the time it happened, it looked like TWA was financially doomed." "A group of the former pilots is asking a federal judge to order the airline to rehire more than 1,500 of them."

Take note AWA guys.....Any comments TWAdude?

 

[TWA Dude]

TWAdude, I'm dissapointed. You always had great informative posts, and now you're spewing your infamous "ALPA merger policy" (which doesn't even exist anymore) and Neutral arbitration...

Life is full of disappointment. Get used to it. And ALPA merger policy is alive and well and in writing.

So SCREW neutral arbitration. Half the time they mess it all up.

Perhaps I’m not making myself clear. (Actually, I have, numerous times, but getting through to you guys is taking longer than knocking down the Berlin Wall.) Forget the end result for a moment and consider what constitutes a fair process for pilot integration talks. ALPA sets up a framework for equality-based talks and provides for a solution when no agreement is reached. When the unions differ (or when external powers meddle) you have conflicting merger policies (TWA/AA) and that gets resolved by the weaker carrier losing its rights and the dominant carrier gets carte blanche to do whatever the devil it pleases. Now what I can’t for the life of me understand is why a few of you are pressing for the latter scenario. I don’t want to lose my job any more than the next guy but it seems a few of you (AA guys, hmmm) are perfectly happy to gain at the expense of others. I’m not.


Now, as far pilots getting screwed by arbitration I’d much rather be screwed that way than by fellow pilots. At least the arbitrator doesn’t stand to gain from it.

 

[TWA Dude]

Take note AWA guys.....Any comments TWAdude?

Sure. Those statements in italics are factually correct but misleading because of a significant detail left out. (Gee, I wonder who the reporter consulted?) I'm repeating this for the umpteenth time because historical revisionism is alive and well: the TWA MEC waived our successorship clauses under threat of abrogation of our whole contract by the judge. Carty would've gotten his purchase regardless. It is revisionist (not to mention self-serving) to say we did it to help the purchase go through. It's certainly true that we wished for AA to win the auction but we had no desire to lose our CBA.

Regardless the lesson is clear: never willingly give up the right to arbitration.

And you know what I find sadly ironic here? This stupid back-and-forth isn't between an AWA pilot and a US pilot. It's an AA pilot and a who-knows-where Mickey who basically are arguing for AWA to treat US like AA did TWA. Very sad indeed!

 

[MickeySlapnutz]

Profits could be just around the corner for U, but for these others, probably not.

"The new management team at TWA has done an exceptional job positioning the airline for long-term growth," said Robert Wolfe, president of Pratt & Whitney's Large Commercial Engine unit.

"We're encouraged by TWA's financial restructuring and improved financial performance," said Ron Woodard, president of Boeing Commercial Airplane Group

ILFC President and Chief Executive Officer Steven F. Udvar- Hazy said, "TWA's decision to lease 10 new Boeing 757s from ILFC and to enter into a commitment with Boeing for additional 757s is a reflection of the dynamic and positive growth of the airline."

You sound like these guys......

 

[321 busdriver]

You guys need to resort to pm ing eachother. Your war has gotten old!

"The new management team at TWA has done an exceptional job positioning the airline for long-term growth," said Robert Wolfe, president of Pratt & Whitney's Large Commercial Engine unit.

"We're encouraged by TWA's financial restructuring and improved financial performance," said Ron Woodard, president of Boeing Commercial Airplane Group

ILFC President and Chief Executive Officer Steven F. Udvar- Hazy said, "TWA's decision to lease 10 new Boeing 757s from ILFC and to enter into a commitment with Boeing for additional 757s is a reflection of the dynamic and positive growth of the airline."

You sound like these guys......

 

[typhoonpilot]

Thanks Busdriver, I'll second that.


TP

 

[BeCareful!]

MickeySlap -

You strike me as a similar sort to the infamous C#!& Mu**, a U pilot who spends most of his life championing causes on the Internet by quoting newspapers and their ever-accurate reports on airline matters.

Without any doubt whatsoever, US Airways' current situation relative to its proposed merger partner is far stronger, on all fronts, than TWA's was in 2001.

Newspapers are in the business of selling newspapers. Quoting them in part on the Internet is becoming such an old, tired game used to mislead and flame.

What's your problem with seeing a fair integration here? Are AWA's current career expectations that great as a stand alone airline that you think a stapler is needed? Whatever your strong need is here, I feel sorry for you; you're grasping at straws trying to compare US Airways to TWA. You'll see, but in the meantime, enjoy your life in CyberSpace; it must be very rewarding for you.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

MickeySlap -

You strike me as a similar sort to the infamous C#!& Mu**, a U pilot who spends most of his life championing causes on the Internet by quoting newspapers and their ever-accurate reports on airline matters.

Without any doubt whatsoever, US Airways' current situation relative to its proposed merger partner is far stronger, on all fronts, than TWA's was in 2001.

Newspapers are in the business of selling newspapers. Quoting them in part on the Internet is becoming such an old, tired game used to mislead and flame.

What's your problem with seeing a fair integration here? Are AWA's current career expectations that great as a stand alone airline that you think a stapler is needed? Whatever your strong need is here, I feel sorry for you; you're grasping at straws trying to compare US Airways to TWA. You'll see, but in the meantime, enjoy your life in CyberSpace; it must be very rewarding for you.

BC,

You may not like what Mickey is stating but it does have some rings of truth to it. These terms that keep getting tossed around like fair, career expectation and my personal favorite windfall. What is fair?? No one really knows!! Is it fair to the person who chose to come to AWA and make a career as opposed to AAA and now lose huge chunks of their seniority to save another??? While a very nobel thought, most would never kill themselves to save the life of another. Career expectation, without this merger what is the true career expectation of AAA employees?? This is another tough one, because how long will GE, PVT investors and the Federal Gov't continue to support AAA who by the way have openly stated that this is best shot and last at survival. Windfall, is it not a windfall for AAA to be employed past the end of the month?? I realize that this sounds nasty and really one sided and for that I apologize but when you make comments like climbing on the backs of others to advance it brings to mind the real world. Sorry but that's the way big business has always and will continue to work. There is no other career that carries with it the expectation of remaining in the same position you have today post merger. In fact in the real world most are either demoted or replaced outright. Nice job to the ALPA attorneys for writing such a policy.

WD.

 

[SUNDOWN]

Is it fair to the person who chose to come to AWA and make a career as opposed to AAA and now lose huge chunks of their seniority to save another
WD.



When did you make the "choice" to go to AWA Vs US.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Is it fair to the person who chose to come to AWA and make a career as opposed to AAA and now lose huge chunks of their seniority to save another
WD.



When did you make the "choice" to go to AWA Vs US.

Well truth be told AAA was never on my radar!!! Location they are east I am west.

WD.

 

[aa73]

and that gets resolved by the weaker carrier losing its rights and the dominant carrier gets carte blanche to do whatever the devil it pleases. Now what I can’t for the life of me understand is why a few of you are pressing for the latter scenario. I don’t want to lose my job any more than the next guy but it seems a few of you (AA guys, hmmm) are perfectly happy to gain at the expense of others. I’m not.[/font][/color]


Now, as far pilots getting screwed by arbitration I’d much rather be screwed that way than by fellow pilots. At least the arbitrator doesn’t stand to gain from it.

Gain from what? What exactly did natives gain from this whole deal? A whole bunch of new debt? Displacements form CA to FO? Massive furloughs from both groups due to the massive debt taken on? Longer upgrade times?

We didn't gain SQUAT from this merger. Just another addition of a disgruntled pilot group. What, you say, we gained 100 more airplanes? Well guess what - they are there to replace the 727s and F100s... so the net gain is... zero. I guarantee if AA wouldn't have taken on TWA we'd be ordering new Boeings just about now.

As for your "carte blanche" analogy.... getting through to you guys is just as difficult. Maybe the deal was crafted in light of the fact that your career expectations weren't exactly stellar, due to the condition TWA found itself in 2000... and that any other deal crafted for you guys would have given you tremendous windfalls in light of said financial condition. Whatever. I'm not in any position to judge what's fair or not.

Like I said earlier, you all like to say that you were "powerless" to fight what the APA put together. Bullsheet! ALPA as a national union had PLENTY of clout to fight the APA. The reason they didn't was because they were trying to recruit us (fat chance.)

So I say, take 'em (ALPA) for what they're worth. I know I'd be contributing plenty towards that lawsuit if I was exTWA.

Regards,
73

 

[TheDonger]

Hey, it looks like YOUR CEO is taking this on. ALPA is going to have their hand's full on this one. Like I said before, if the AWA pilots would just THINK for a few moments they're the ones that will gain as so many AAA guys are retiring - 1.2 pilots per day just on retirements alone. Good luck to all.

BC,

You may not like what Mickey is stating but it does have some rings of truth to it. These terms that keep getting tossed around like fair, career expectation and my personal favorite windfall. What is fair?? No one really knows!! Is it fair to the person who chose to come to AWA and make a career as opposed to AAA and now lose huge chunks of their seniority to save another??? While a very nobel thought, most would never kill themselves to save the life of another. Career expectation, without this merger what is the true career expectation of AAA employees?? This is another tough one, because how long will GE, PVT investors and the Federal Gov't continue to support AAA who by the way have openly stated that this is best shot and last at survival. Windfall, is it not a windfall for AAA to be employed past the end of the month?? I realize that this sounds nasty and really one sided and for that I apologize but when you make comments like climbing on the backs of others to advance it brings to mind the real world. Sorry but that's the way big business has always and will continue to work. There is no other career that carries with it the expectation of remaining in the same position you have today post merger. In fact in the real world most are either demoted or replaced outright. Nice job to the ALPA attorneys for writing such a policy.

WD.

 

[TWA Dude]

What exactly did natives gain from this whole deal?

Furlough fodder.

A whole bunch of new debt?

You seem to have difficulty differentiating between the pilots of TWA and AA management. Neither of us had anything to do with the buyout yet AA did give you, the APA, the priviledge of deciding how we were to be integrated. Quiz time: who saddled AMR with more debt in a questionable business decision? AA. Who do most AAers blame for the decision? AA. Who do many AAers take out their anger on? Ex-TWA pilots. Now I know what you're thinking: "why should we AAers suffer when we can make the TWAers suffer instead?" It's a valid thought yet it serves to differentiate between you and I.

Massive furloughs from both groups due to the massive debt taken on?

Funny, you're the first master economist who's made a direct connection between long-term debt and furloughs.

I guarantee if AA wouldn't have taken on TWA we'd be ordering new Boeings just about now.

Well, that's another difference between you and I. You possess amazing prognosticative powers; you know exactly what everyone is or was going to do. I don't.

Whatever. I'm not in any position to judge what's fair or not.

STOP THE PRESSES!! HISTORY IS BEING MADE!! I'm not exaggerating, this is the first time I've read an AAer make this admission. Finally we agree on something.

Like I said earlier, you all like to say that you were "powerless" to fight what the APA put together. Bullsheet! ALPA as a national union had PLENTY of clout to fight the APA. The reason they didn't was because they were trying to recruit us (fat chance.)

True, ALPA didn't defend us, however, hearing this come from you is like a rapist chastizing his victim for not having stronger locks on her house.

 

[BeCareful!]

I realize that this sounds nasty and really one sided and for that I apologize but when you make comments like climbing on the backs of others to advance it brings to mind the real world.
WD.

When did I make a comment like that?

One word, WD: Fences.

And as far as your choice to work for a western carrier, not to worry: your A330 pairing out of CLT won't be happening anytime soon.

BC