AWA/USAir seniority integration??

[Focus]

TWA DUDE, You say you were screwed at TWA, and many American guys say you were on your way out the door anyways. Now your saying you want the ALPA Merger Policy to be fair as it is written so the guys at USAIR can have a fair deal when they merge with AWA or what ever it will be called even with a large portion of their pilot group already on the street and the ones actively flying already pursuing other opportunities or holding on for dear life to a sinking ship.

Instead of laughing at your utopian idealogy I will try to explain this in its simplest terms. Expectations of many families across the above two airlines will be affected by the consolidation of these two pilot groups. Instead of rambling about the past why not state a solution that you believe to be fair for all parties.

Simply stating you want it to be fair doesnt FLY. Depending on who you ask on any given day there will always be some that will say its unfair. For your sake I hope your not on the short end of the deal again. It would be even tougher coming back a third time.

Enough has been said. I hope this provides some direction for you.

 

[Boeingman]

......

 

[TWA Dude]

Instead of rambling about the past why not state a solution that you believe to be fair for all parties.

Are you Slapnutz in disguise? How many times will I have to repeat myself? A fair solution is one which doesn't harm or create a windfall for either, ie, ALPA MERGER POLICY. Figuring that out requires research and number-crunching and that's what merger committees do. If a miracle occurs both sides will agree and that's that. More than likely there will be disagreement and then the fair process known as arbitration kicks in. Note that "fair" doesn't mean I'm gonna like the result. Suffice it to say had TWA/AA been allowed to go to arbitration I believe the results would've been more favorable for my seniority number. (After all, if the APA hadn't been afraid of arbitration they wouldn't have objected to it, right?.) If you're asking me to come up with my own integration formula I'm unable and unwilling to do so. To do so would also be pointless and inflammatory.

Simply stating you want it to be fair doesnt FLY. Depending on who you ask on any given day there will always be some that will say its unfair.

Is there an echo in here? Have I not been saying that all along? I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall here. So lemme ask you, then, if not the ALPA merger policy then how should our seniority lists be merged?

 

[Focus]

Your still sitting on the fence. Dig in and let us know how you really feel. Otherwise stop rambling.

Get out of the CrashPad and go for a jog.

 

[semperfido]

date of hire at first alpa airline....national list for merger/job change purposes

 

[TWA Dude]

Get out of the CrashPad and go for a jog.

Good guess, but wrong. I'm at home on the couch with my puppy snoozing on my lap. She's getting used to my shouted epithets at my computer screen.

 

[Focus]

Now that was funny

 

[MickeySlapnutz]

"A fair solution is one which doesn't harm or create a windfall for either, ie, ALPA MERGER POLICY. "


Since none of the TWA pilots were senior to any of the AA pilots...I fail to see how no harm could be done to any AA pilot who has anyone placed above him in seniority. Thats why all new hire pilots at any airline are placed one number junior to the most junior pilot prior to them. Since the TWA pilots were days away from being unemployed...any seniority at AA was a windfall. The above mentioned ALPA Merger Policy is nothing more than window dressing as you admit. Its not a policy...its a dodge.

"More than likely there will be disagreement and then the fair process known as arbitration kicks in. "

Ask any airline pilot whose contract went to binding arbitration how fair it was. Try the Alaska Airlines guys....for examples. If your negotiating commitee is foolish enough to cast its lot and that of the pilots it represents with an arbitraitor....than you need a new commitee. The APA officers and contract were formulated to serve its members....AA pilots.

The pilots on the seniority list at TWA the day of the announced merger were willing to gamble their careers with a twice failed and dwindleing airline destined for CH7.

None of the AA pilots voted for the CBA at TWA that included your ALPA Merger policy. They voted for the CBA crafted by AMR and APA that did not include any such language. Why then should APA abandone what its members ratified and use the standard set by TWA pilots who had their own best interest in mind when they set the ALPA merger policy in their CBA?

Knowing that TWA was on its last days....it seems awfull convenient to vote yourselfs a nice merger policy that ensures a windfall via some arbitraitor included in a contract the other group of pilots had no say or vote in. But then to pass yourself off as a guy just looking for fairness is....well less then honest and very self serving.

 

[FlyingDawg]

Instead of rambling about the past why not state a solution that you believe to be fair for all parties.

I don't have a pony in this race, but let me suggest a solution.

Take the two pilot lists of active pilots flying mainline equipment (exclude MDA and furloughed pilots) from each carrier and figure each pilots relative position on their pre-merger seniority lists (expressed as a percentage). Then merge the two list so each pilot would remain at the same percentile post-merger as he was pre-merger.

The ex-mainline employees currently furloughed or flying for MDA would follow this post-merger list using the same formula as it relates to their relative postion to recall (I'm assuming AWA has furloughed pilots as well, if not then the remaining US pilots would be stapled in order of recall).

This preservation of one's relative position leaves an individual with the same opportunity to access benefits and protections post merger as before the merger. The concept of preserving the relative position might be preferred over others that distort relative position and thereby, create windfalls and losses that are counterproductive to harmonious and productive labor relations.

Good luck to all!

 

[Doug Parker]

There are NO AWA pilots on furlough. In fact, we have been hiring steadily and have 40+ in the pool with rumors of possibly emptying the pool and doing more hiring before the year is over.

As was said before - This merger will not negatively affect any AWA employees.

We are acquiring a dying giant to take control of gates, routes, and aircraft to become more competitive in today's struggling airline environment.

If not for this merger, U would slowly fly west into the sunset with Eastern, Braniff, PanAm, etc......A U pilot's career expectation - the unemployment line - thanks to crappy management.

1 word - STAPLE












Flame away!!

 

[MickeySlapnutz]

I don't have a pony in this race, but let me suggest a solution.

Take the two pilot lists of active pilots flying mainline equipment (exclude MDA and furloughed pilots) from each carrier and figure each pilots relative position on their pre-merger seniority lists (expressed as a percentage). Then merge the two list so each pilot would remain at the same percentile post-merger as he was pre-merger.

The ex-mainline employees currently furloughed or flying for MDA would follow this post-merger list using the same formula as it relates to their relative postion to recall (I'm assuming AWA has furloughed pilots as well, if not then the remaining US pilots would be stapled in order of recall).

This preservation of one's relative position leaves an individual with the same opportunity to access benefits and protections post merger as before the merger. The concept of preserving the relative position might be preferred over others that distort relative position and thereby, create windfalls and losses that are counterproductive to harmonious and productive labor relations.

Good luck to all!

That's assuming the new merged company stays the same size or grows with the same number or greater airframes. Thats when the acquiring companies pilots get furloughed while the acquired pilots keep their jobs. The acquiring company is stronger financially then the acquired company which is useally in deep do-do...see AA/TWA or Delta/Pan AM or Pan AM/National or TWA/Ozark.
Then you have the problem of base/equipment bidding....suddenly a U pilot can bid and hold an A-320 FO seat in PHX displaceing a now junior AWA pilot from his seat and base. Or a AWA pilot can now displace a U A-330 CA from PHL....the training and moveing expense to the company quickly escalates.

The only answer is staple the U pilots to the bottom of the AWA list and build a 5 year fence base and seat lock around U with a freeze on block hours or a 5 to 1 hour reduction ( U has to loose 5 hours of flying to every 1 hour AWA looses) if any downsizeing occurs. This will protect the AWA pilots from loosing their jobs to U pilots. The U pilots have been loosing jobs since 9/11 and have no reason to expect U to survive much longer....U is in CH11 for the second time in the last couple of years with a CH7 not far off. Most would agree on that. Its not a pretty picture for those guys.....we all hate to see this, but thats no reason for a pilot who hired on at AWA to loose his seniority and quality of life, or worse, his job for a company he did not hire on with. Yes...to the victor go the spoils. As it has been and always will be. Make no mistake about it....U pilots would do the same if the shoe were on the other foot.

 

[jetflier]

One word, " Fences ". Big and long lasting ones. That will keep things from getting too lopsided, one way or the other. There is no way an America West pilot should be allowed to bid Captain on the A330 for many years. On the other hand there is no way a ( currently very junior 18 year ) USAirways F.O. should be allowed to bid Captain immediately as a result of a seniority integration.

The U MEC had a group look very deeply into past mergers to come up with a possible solution for the proposed UAL/U merger. They have an extensive body of precedent to fall back on and there is certainly a solution that will mitigate any unfair windfalls.

Take myself for example. I'm currently furloughed ( and really have no intention of ever going back ), but if U survived and I was to go back I would retire in the top 10 on the seniority list. I would have extremely good senioirty for my last 7 years. To staple me on the bottom of the America West seniority list such that I would never see the left seat would be patently unfair. It would also be patently unfair for me to be recalled and upgrade anytime within the next 8 years.

Fences are the answer. Most present U pilots are over the age of 45. A 15 year fence would be very reasonable and would mitigate the effects of a date-of-hire seniority integration. Having a clause like you always keep your America West relative seniority when bidding for former America West bases and you always keep your former USAirways seniority when bidding for the Airbus 330 ( or it's replacement, i.e PHL Int'l flying ) would be fair.

Ducking for cover,



TP

Fences are the way to go,....however they can still be screwed up. Take my company, NWA has fences from the Republic merger in 1986. Initiated by the NWA (red) pilots against the Republic (green ) pilots.

This agreement would protect "the career aspirations " of the red pilots by preventing the green pilots from flying any NWA flying untill the red pilots had a shot at it.

Well all is well untill new aircraft are added to the fleet....then Minnesota "nice" takes over.....and everyone else in the company gets the shaft. Including post merger new hires (blue) pilots.

This agreement at NWA is to expire after 20 years, 2006 and Minnesota nice says to try to keep it going to protect the carreer aspirations of the (red) pilots by initiating a litany of law suits saying that Sept 11 caused unusal circumstances and the agreement must be extended......

So, all is not easy with any merger agreement, especially if your from minnesota..........

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Hey Doug Parker,

Your company is not "acquiring" anyone. This merger is occuring because outside investors are putting it together with their money.

I think you're fooling yourself if you truly believe that there will be a staple. There will most likely be some kind of slotted integration with fences.

It's not a successful merger unless both sides are pi$$ed off.

 

[Boeingman]

Instead of worrying about how a set merger policy will be carried out, my fears if I was an AWA pilot would be the real possibility of this combined company imploding. For the immediate future, there should be some discussion amongst the AWA MEC to protect and enforce their contract now and in the future.

I am a little fuzzy on the mechanics of contract applications to a combined pilot group. Respective contracts are not permenant. Management must be drooling over the gutted U CBA and the potential for AWA to work under it.

 

[TWA Dude]

Since none of the TWA pilots were senior to any of the AA pilots...I fail to see how no harm could be done to any AA pilot who has anyone placed above him in seniority. Thats why all new hire pilots at any airline are placed one number junior to the most junior pilot prior to them. Since the TWA pilots were days away from being unemployed...any seniority at AA was a windfall.

Being furlough-fodder hardly seems a windfall to me, but once again you’re missing the point. The APA was given the ability to decide whatever integration they wanted. They humored the TWAers by listening for a few months but in the end they did exactly what they planned to: impose it. You call that a fair process? Maybe you do but I don’t and I feel the same way in regards to AWA/US.

The above mentioned ALPA Merger Policy is nothing more than window dressing as you admit. Its not a policy...its a dodge.

I have no idea what you mean by this. I support ALPA Merger policy.

Ask any airline pilot whose contract went to binding arbitration how fair it was.

You’re talking about union/management arbitration and I’m talking about union/union. Big difference.

Try the Alaska Airlines guys....for examples.

Both sides must agree to abide by binding arbitration before the process begins. So yes, it’s fair. I don’t blame them for not liking the result but it’s fair. I haven’t read what the grounds for their lawsuit are.

If your negotiating commitee is foolish enough to cast its lot and that of the pilots it represents with an arbitraitor....than you need a new commitee.

ALPA merger policy is not optional; it’s the way it is. You seem to have trouble understanding that. Obligations may be waived and in fact that’s what happened in the past but usually under duress or coercion. Exactly how would you have the AWA MEC get around ALPA by-laws?

The APA officers and contract were formulated to serve its members....AA pilots.

Duh! At least ALPA by-laws recognize that it’s wrong for one side to be completely in control in a merger.

The pilots on the seniority list at TWA the day of the announced merger were willing to gamble their careers with a twice failed and dwindleing airline destined for CH7.

Oh my, I didn’t realize I was chatting with a deity. Since you know everyone’s destiny I assume you’re stinking rich from gambling wins? Who’s gonna win the World Series this year? Tell me it’s the Cubs so I can start betting now.

Why then should APA abandone what its members ratified and use the standard set by TWA pilots who had their own best interest in mind when they set the ALPA merger policy in their CBA?

Interesting perspective you have. ALPA merger policy aims to get two sides to agree whereas APA policy aims to screw the other guys. Is this the vision of fairness you want for your kids?

...it seems awfull convenient to vote yourselfs a nice merger policy that ensures a windfall via some arbitraitor included in a contract the other group of pilots had no say or vote in.

A “windfall via some arbitrator”? My, how you contradict yourself. Above you point out how the Alaska pilots got screwed by an arbitrator yet here you presume that the TWAers expected a windfall from one? Well, which is it: arbitrator good or arbitrator bad? Well guess what: nobody knows and that’s what makes it fair!

But then to pass yourself off as a guy just looking for fairness is....well less then honest and very self serving.

I’m trying real hard to understand what you mean by this but I can’t. If you feel ALPA merger policy isn’t fair then exactly how should the talks between AWA and US be conducted and who has final authority?

 

[TheDonger]

No staplers will happen. If its even suggested you're looking at WWIII. I do agree with the fences. Sorry, but the investors are in the driver's seat on this one. US Airways has a good track record on employee merger integration. This will never be an AA/TWA fiasco. Nobody on either property will allow it; you can take that to the bank. Don't forget, a lot of ALPA arbitration precedents were set with the PSA/Piedmont/USAir/Trump Shuttle mergers. If the AWA pilots were smart and would THINK for a moment they are the ones that will get a windfall. For the most part, most of the US Airways pilot group will be retired in 10 years. Yes, you'll be flying those A350's to Europe or where ever. FWIW, it's going to take years to integrate. In the next two years, 800 US Airways pilots are scheduled to retire...those are the scheduled ones. It will probably end up being over 1000 pilots due to those leaving, medicals, ect. US Airways is losing (retirements) on average (according to VP Flight Ops) 1.2 pilots PER DAY!

 

[NewBlue]

date of hire at first alpa airline....national list for merger/job change purposes

Why not date of Commercial license? That is when (theoretically) you became a professional pilot.

 

[Traderd]

Why not date of Commercial license? That is when (theoretically) you became a professional pilot.

Better yet - DOB.

 

[B6Driver]

MickeySlapnutz,
It's comments like yours that make me happy I'm furloughed from that angry mob of employees over at AA. What comes around goes around. Every Qtr. brings your group closer to the edge.
Your view will change in the future but all will remember how you acted.

 

[aa73]

B6 Driver,

Keep telling yourself how "screwed" you got by AA.... when you were all jumping for joy the day the merger was announced (Yes! A savior!)... Then you cried because you didn;t get DOH... and I've got schmucks here telling me I stole their or their father's seniority! Up yours. Like you said, what goes around comes around. We don't want you back either, so go drink your Blue koolaid and off with you.

TWAdude, I'm dissapointed. You always had great informative posts, and now you're spewing your infamous "ALPA merger policy" (which doesn't even exist anymore) and Neutral arbitration... Well, thanks to Neutral arbitrtation, a well known group of guys called Air Wisconsin got screwed in a merger involving Mississipi Valley AIrlines, which resulted in something like 10 year Air Willy guys flying copilot for 3 year Mississipi Valley captains.

So SCREW neutral arbitration. Half the time they mess it all up.

As I said in my post, go take it up with ALPA ,they're the ones that wouldn't stand up to the APA and challenge them on what they deemed a fair first offer (which your dumbass MEC chairman Bob Pastore basically refused.) I hope you guys win millions from them.

Hey, I'm not one to call something like this fair or unfair, but when you look at the reaction of your pilot group when the merger was announced, and then screaming foul when the integration came down and you didn't get DOH, well, there's a wee bit of an odor in the air. Sorry, but that's the way it is in every merger - there's always a group from both sides that feels they got screwed.

And yes, there will be a group from both sides at AWA/USAir who will get screwed, and another group from both that will benefit. Just like AA/TWA. Welcome to merger mania.

73