Ati hiring

[WYOMINGPILOT]

So it's your opinion that the ABX side letter overrides ATI's CBA on the vacation issue? Our CBA clearly states that vacation accrual is based on years of service to ATI, not ABX, ATSG, or CCI.

My opinion is not what is important. What has already been negotiated by ATSG management is what is important. Vacation will be given to the ABX newhires at their new hire seniority level. However, in addition, ATSG will give them another level of vacation based upon their years of service with their sister ATSG carrier. No additional seniority will be added by the agreement and the ATI CBA will be in full force. A way to think of this is they will be taking an additional 2 weeks of jury duty per year, unpaid by ATI that was agreed to by ATSG management and will be paid by ATSG.

 

[l8fr82hub]

My opinion is not what is important. What has already been negotiated by ATSG management is what is important. Vacation will be given to the ABX newhires at their new hire seniority level. However, in addition, ATSG will give them another level of vacation based upon their years of service with their sister ATSG carrier. No additional seniority will be added by the agreement and the ATI CBA will be in full force. A way to think of this is they will be taking an additional 2 weeks of jury duty per year, unpaid by ATI that was agreed to by ATSG management and will be paid by ATSG.

Fair enough explanation though it still creates some seniority issues due to quirks in our vacation bidding process as it relates to splitting the vacation bid. No point in quibbling over it here though.

Are you planning on joining us or are you still donning the gray suit?

 

[FreightBumper]

I agree b707guy. Good discussion. And maybe some good will come of it.

Muckles statement says it all:

"Ultimately, I see this issue as one that is good for our profession. It is precisely the type of arrangement that ALPA’s National Career Security Committee has recommended that be negotiated within carrier families and among carriers within holding companies."

They liked ALPA's idea but, unfortunately just not how ALPA suggested it be done.



My biggest concern is our rights under our CBA not be violated by outside unilaterally agreed to side letters. And the absolute least amount of financial exposure to ATI as possible so as not to damage our negotiating position. I can hear it now:

ATI190 negotiators: "Well this is what we need"
Company negotiators: "Hey, we hear ya. And we really would like to help ya'll out. But ya know we have to pay for those "New Hires" salaries and ya know someone has to make up for the loss of production because of all that vaca time they all got right out of the gate.


I'm just say'en.....

FAJ

If you are the same FAJ at ATI that you were at Astar, you were a whiner then and are so now. Many of your posts wished for ABX's demise then and you promote no more valid discussion now. You would have jumped at the chance to go to ATI at your former Astar seniority, but the opportunity wasn't there. I'm just say'en..

 

[fob727]

If you are the same FAJ at ATI that you were at Astar, you were a whiner then and are so now. Many of your posts wished for ABX's demise then and you promote no more valid discussion now. You would have jumped at the chance to go to ATI at your former Astar seniority, but the opportunity wasn't there. I'm just say'en..

Always one a$$hole in the crowd

 

[nitefr8dog]

Always one a$$hole in the crowd

Just one? This site has plenty!

 

[Fly Astar Jets]

If you are the same FAJ at ATI that you were at Astar, you were a whiner then and are so now. Many of your posts wished for ABX's demise then and you promote no more valid discussion now. You would have jumped at the chance to go to ATI at your former Astar seniority, but the opportunity wasn't there. I'm just say'en..

FreightBumper

I haven't a clue where you're coming from with that line. Below are a few posts (between you and I even) from a previous thread that clearly shows that I feel no ill will toward your group or ABX.

You and me both brother.

But I've got 11 years invested in this place and I ain't no spring chicken. So I'm riding this mule till the mule can't be ridden anymore. I'm sure you feel the same about your own situation.

Peeps, everyone,
However this plays out, there is NO reason Our Two Groups, You and I, everyone, can't make this work. Our Two Groups, You and I, should not be combatants. Every merger I ever read about always seems to be contentious and lopsided. Why is that? Who eventually benefits from a split and divided group? I'll let you all answer that for yourselves.
I know this sounds like a "why can't we all just get along" plea. Well maybe it is. But remember this; Our Two Groups, You and I should not be enemies. The enemies are the ones that sit in their crystal palaces and cabanas with Golden Parachutes strapped to their backs paid for by You, Me, Our Two Groups.

Now pardon me while I slip into my Nomex jammies for the flame fest.

I am an ABX pilot and wholeheartedly agree with you. You will have our support, and it will be given to fullest extent we are able, both physically and legally. I have carried dozens of Astar pilots on the jumpseat and not one ever asked if I would walk their line with them. I think your MEC leadership wanted it that way to fester hard feelings between us so he can push his agenda. I don't have a clue what that might be or why he feels that way. What a concept, just ask for our support out loud. Everyone wants tofeel wanted.

Thanks FB,

I am comfortable with the knowledge that a great number of your group will do what they can as long as the result is not a night in a jail cell with Bubba. My beef is with the 1224 EB as yours is with 017 MEC. Funny. Is there a pattern here?
Maybe the tail should start wagging dog and 1200 pilots can start kicking some a$$ and taking some names. Now there's a concept.

FAJ

Well I mostly read on here and not post , but Both Pilot groups need not try and focus on issues in leadership of our unions

But we need to focus on how we can help the common cause of getting fair contracts for each other. Astar Pilots and ABX Pilots should not be enemies but instead they should unite and fight the real enemy management and corporate greed

Well said :beer:

 

[nitefr8dog]

apparently not

Just saw the list, all 12 positions filled with ABX folks. Good luck to all!

 

[WYOMINGPILOT]

I just saw the list as well. It is 10 Pilots and 4 PFE's. Congrats to all and Good Luck! It was amazingly senior, the junior FO is a 14 1/2 year guy at ABX so it will be interesting to see if the ABX side letter is complied with in regards to pay and benefits.

 

[Headwind]

Does this tell us that anyone, other than ABX pilots, who did the online app. is out of luck?

 

[nitefr8dog]

Does this tell us that anyone, other than ABX pilots, who did the online app. is out of luck?

Per the side letter yes. Unless ATI hires more than 450 or so pilots. Or some of the ABX furloughed pilots decline employment.

 

[Meat n the Seat]

An ALPA carrier allows Teamsters to be placed on their seniority list while ALPA members are on the street. Pilot unions have evolved into a sick joke with ALPA as the punchline. Everyone in the Crystal Palace in Herdon needs to be removed. ALPA's evolution is complete now that all the self-serving scum has risin to the top. Rather than promote the profession, they help to destroy it. Sad but true.

 

[l8fr82hub]

An ALPA carrier allows Teamsters to be placed on their seniority list while ALPA members are on the street. Pilot unions have evolved into a sick joke with ALPA as the punchline. Everyone in the Crystal Palace in Herdon needs to be removed. ALPA's evolution is complete now that all the self-serving scum has risin to the top. Rather than promote the profession, they help to destroy it. Sad but true.

Neither ATI or it's pilot's union had any say in the preferential hiring of ABX crewmembers.

 

[nitefr8dog]

An ALPA carrier allows Teamsters to be placed on their seniority list while ALPA members are on the street. Pilot unions have evolved into a sick joke with ALPA as the punchline. Everyone in the Crystal Palace in Herdon needs to be removed. ALPA's evolution is complete now that all the self-serving scum has risin to the top. Rather than promote the profession, they help to destroy it. Sad but true.

Keeping in mind the pilots being hired at ATI are "former Teamsters"..... unemployed guys just trying to find work. I find it hard to believe a union can prevent anyone qualified to be hired at any airline, even the almighty ALPA! My guess is (and this is just a guess) that it is the management at ATI and not the union that decides who will get hired.

 

[dsee8driver]

An ALPA carrier allows Teamsters to be placed on their seniority list while ALPA members are on the street. Pilot unions have evolved into a sick joke with ALPA as the punchline. Everyone in the Crystal Palace in Herdon needs to be removed. ALPA's evolution is complete now that all the self-serving scum has risin to the top. Rather than promote the profession, they help to destroy it. Sad but true.

I think an unemployed pilot is just that, an unemployed pilot. Why would it matter if they were Teamsters or ALPA? Had there been furloughed ATI pilots left behind for an ABX guy that would be another issue. As far as I'm concerned, the guys coming over are furloughed pilots with families to take care off. The days airlines start picking pilots by their association to a Union its going to add another crappy hurdle to a pilot trying to get a job.

Now, I'm surprised at how senior the ABX guys coming over are. Do they think they are not going to be recalled in 2 years? I do believe ATI is requiring them to stay for that amount of time. Another one of those things we will see how and if it will be enforced.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

An ALPA carrier allows Teamsters to be placed on their seniority list while ALPA members are on the street. Pilot unions have evolved into a sick joke with ALPA as the punchline. .

From what I've read, this isn't about "ALPA vs. Teamsters." ATI and ABX are separate tentacles of the same octopus. The preferential hiring and carry-over pay is simply an acknowledgement of that fact.

Everyone in the Crystal Palace in Herdon needs to be removed..

I've been hearing that for 30 years. It's not gonna happen until the basic nature of the average ALPA crewmember changes, and to be honest, with the possible exception of this ATI/ABX deal, I haven't seen anything in this business that gives me much hope that that's gonna happen EVER.

ALPA's evolution is complete now that all the self-serving scum has risin to the top. Rather than promote the profession, they help to destroy it. Sad but true.

"They" are US. WE elect our national leaders. WE elect our individual MEC's, and WE set the bar for the kind of leadership, and the kind of results, we expect from them. What's been true of every other labor organization since the beginning of time is true of ALPA as well...a resolute membership generally achieves a favorable contract, a weak or divided membership generally an unfavorable one. "The problem, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in ourselves"

The Teamsters have done well by their members. They deserve first bite at this apple.

 

[Meat n the Seat]

[From what I've read, this isn't about "ALPA vs. Teamsters." ATI and ABX are separate tentacles of the same octopus. The preferential hiring and carry-over pay is simply an acknowledgement of that fact.]

Dan, your comments are laughable-at best. For an ALPA carrier to allow a Teamster labor contract to determine who populates its seniority list is a sad testimoniy to how corrupt ALPA has become.

[I've been hearing that for 30 years. It's not gonna happen until the basic nature of the average ALPA crewmember changes, and to be honest, with the possible exception of this ATI/ABX deal, I haven't seen anything in this business that gives me much hope that that's gonna happen EVER."They" are US. WE elect our national leaders. WE elect our individual MEC's, and WE set the bar for the kind of leadership] and the kind of results, we expect from them. What's been true of every other labor organization since the beginning of time is true of ALPA as well...a resolute membership generally achieves a favorable contract, a weak or divided membership generally an unfavorable one. "The problem, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in ourselves" ]

Sorry, the scum at the top steer MEC/LEC members in the wrong direction to benefit their own employment within the ALPA heirarchy. It has nothing to do with the "average ALPA crewmember" or their unity. It is the corruption and incompetance at the top of the organization. You see Dan, ALPA started as a good thing with noble intentions- to improve working conditions and quality of life for pilots. It now exists to serve its administration. As with other scocial organizations who have lost the direction of the reason they were created in the first place, the outfit is a shell of its former self. The "ALPA is US" mantra has grown stale. Find some new material.

[The Teamsters have done well by their members. They deserve first bite at this apple.]

OK, if thats your affiliation/product your peddling of the day. Hopefully,for you, you may get them to take over ATSG as a whole and start lining the Teamster management pockets. By the way, nice overall flame.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

For starters, no flame was intended. You made some pretty strong statements regarding ALPA and their recent failures, and I thought they merited a response.

Dan, your comments are laughable-at best. For an ALPA carrier to allow a Teamster labor contract to determine who populates its seniority list is a sad testimoniy to how corrupt ALPA has become.

Again, as I understand it, this is a deal between ABX and it's parent organization ATSG, which then flows back down to ATI. ATI pilots could probably strike a similar deal with ATSG that would provide for preferential hiring at ABX, in the event that ATI shrinks and ABX grows. (Which might be worth looking into, now that it appears that DHL is going to "grow" ABX's 767 operation)

Sorry, the scum at the top steer MEC/LEC members in the wrong direction to benefit their own employment within the ALPA heirarchy. It has nothing to do with the "average ALPA crewmember" or their unity. It is the corruption and incompetance at the top of the organization.

This argument is coming full-circle. Under Federal law, elections for union leadership are done under strict and impartial oversight. So, who ELECTS "the scum at the top?" I believe it's WE, the "scum" at the bottom. It's gotta be us, because our "scummy leaders" can't vote themselves into office. Fix "us" and you'll fix ALPA

You see Dan, ALPA started as a good thing with noble intentions- to improve working conditions and quality of life for pilots. It now exists to serve its administration. As with other scocial organizations who have lost the direction of the reason they were created in the first place, the outfit is a shell of its former self. The "ALPA is US" mantra has grown stale. Find some new material.

You need to know that my family's involvement with unions goes back at least three generations to the turn of the last century, and our involvement in airline unions to post WWII. My Dad was buried with his pin on his lapel. So I know as well as anybody why ALPA was started, and what their intentions were.

I think if Dave Behncke were alive today, he'd SH1T. Then, he'd start whatever steps were necessary to bring some MEC's into line with the goals of the national organization. That would probably involve bringing those MEC's under the oversight of ALPA national until new leadership could be elected. The first heads to roll would be some of the lawyers and contract administrators who seem to think that ALPA is just a place to hang out until they have enough saved for retirement.

OK, if [the Teamsters are] your affiliation/product your peddling of the day. Hopefully,for you, you may get them to take over ATSG as a whole and start lining the Teamster management pockets.

The Teamsters have done a MUCH better job of protecting their members interests, and careers, than ALPA. I think that's because they've never forgotten that they're a Union, and that a Union's first and foremost responsibility is to protect JOBS. Everything else...hourly rates, working conditions, etc., flows from that. I'm not advocating for them, just stating what I believe to be a fact. After all, it's the Teamsters that lobbied for preferential hiring for their guys at ATI, not the other way around.

 

[PCL_128]

The Teamsters have done a MUCH better job of protecting their members interests, and careers, than ALPA.

Now that's some funny s&%^!

 

[Captzaahlie]

The Teamsters have done a MUCH better job of protecting their members interests, and careers, than ALPA.

Oh yeah, I'm sure the guys at ATI feel the same.....
look how fast the teabagers got them a contract....NOT!
WTF are you smoking dude?

 

[DC8CRIVER]

Keeping in mind the pilots being hired at ATI are "former Teamsters"..... unemployed guys just trying to find work. I find it hard to believe a union can prevent anyone qualified to be hired at any airline, even the almighty ALPA! My guess is (and this is just a guess) that it is the management at ATI and not the union that decides who will get hired.

You know, I wouldn't have much of a beef with this statement except for the fact that the ABX guys get preferential hiring and seniority for pay.

The pref hiring is a slap in the face of furloughed ALPA pilots (especially Astar pilots) and the pay issue is a slap in the face of the ATI pilots who now have a much smaller pie to divide during negotiations - even if it is DHL (or ATSG) that is covering the extra money (it matters not which pocket the cash is dug out of, it all still is coming from the same greedy rat.)

The last guys that I blame are the ATI guys. Or for that matter, the ABX guys. It is 1224 and ATAG that made this deal with the devil.

One day, some or all of the DHL carriers will get fed up with the whipsawing thing and call bullshot and walk. DHL is so concerned with driving costs down their product quality will (and already has) sink to the bottom.

Sure, carriers like UPS and FedEx concentrate on cost saving, but they also realize that the bottom line is the difference between expenses AND income so they also pay attention to increasing revenue. A pretty basic idea that the fatherland has yet to grasp.


Driver