Asa Ta!

[79%N1]

All I can say is the devil's in the details.

Im not counting money or spending it till I have a week or more to review every word of this TA.

I'd ask all my fellow pilots to do the same, and not assume this fight is over.

It sure seems to me everyone is ready to throw in the towel and move on for another day. While this is understandable, it may be the wrong choice.

We need to hold judgement untill we see it in writing.

I realize that ASA is not a career airline for most and a place like Airtran is, it should be noted that they have voted down TWO TA's, this is the kinda thing we should keep in the back of our mind when reviewing our new TA.

More than likely, it will be acceptable in terms of work rules and QOL issues, but to accept 13.5 million is in my opinion "throwing in the towel"

FACT: Skywest inc. has made back the investment of 400 plus million for the purchase of ASA. The have over 700 million of unrestricted cash in the bank right now.

They achived this in under 3 years of ownership of ASA.

Medeco

Med...I agree with everything you said. Just remember, in a negotiation, the negotiators must give in a little here to gain a little there. I think, while the money amount may not be acceptable to you, we had to conceed a little there to gain something more important. While none of us have seen the whole TA yet, I believe we had to buy a little in other areas, and the CNC believes this amount was fair to make the gains in other areas, like scope, rates, rigs, profit sharing, and the COLA the company was NOT giving until this last session.

You mentioned AirTran. They were offered about half of that amount when they turned down the TA, so you can't compare the situations. You have no idea if 13.5 million would be acceptable to them, nor what other gains their CNC made.

Also, rememeber the price companies like Mesa and CHQ and Eagle paid for scope. Hopefully, we didn't pay any where near as dearly!

 

[Richard Gozinya]

Just remember, in a negotiation, the negotiators must give in a little here to gain a little there. I think, while the money amount may not be acceptable to you, we had to conceed a little there to gain something more important.

This is right on! If we vote yes from the git go......we validate the stall tactics that was used by both sides, yes JM I realize the first 2 years was stalling by the union, and we are so impatient we will take anything thrown our way.

Having said that, if we vote down the TA and go back to the table, the company is going to want something. Or you can look at it from the other side. WE have to give up something. From the realist side, what are we prepared to give up?

Anyone with any forethought knows this company is smart enough to allready know what that is. Yes, they want it done also. If you don't think it is easy for JA to let this go for 6 more months, you are fooling yourself.

How long do you think it will take before a tread is started polling the ASA pilots on their vote? The answer........maybe 2 weeks.

Dick Gozinya

 

[John Pennekamp]

All I can say is the devil's in the details.

Im not counting money or spending it till I have a week or more to review every word of this TA.

I'd ask all my fellow pilots to do the same, and not assume this fight is over.

It sure seems to me everyone is ready to throw in the towel and move on for another day. While this is understandable, it may be the wrong choice.

We need to hold judgement untill we see it in writing.

I realize that ASA is not a career airline for most and a place like Airtran is, it should be noted that they have voted down TWO TA's, this is the kinda thing we should keep in the back of our mind when reviewing our new TA.

More than likely, it will be acceptable in terms of work rules and QOL issues, but to accept 13.5 million is in my opinion "throwing in the towel"

FACT: Skywest inc. has made back the investment of 400 plus million for the purchase of ASA. The have over 700 million of unrestricted cash in the bank right now.

They achived this in under 3 years of ownership of ASA.

Medeco

'zactly right.

A "YES" vote for this TA is a huge victory for management. They wore us down exactly for this reason....

...so we would accept less......happily.

I'm willing to bet you both a six pack of PBR that it passes by 95% or greater.

 

[Richard Gozinya]

75% vote yes,

60% vote.

Dick Gozinya

 

[79%N1]

If only 60% of this pilot group (eligible) vote on this contract that took this long and this much fight to get...I will forever be embarrased to work here!

 

[WWEfan]

The $13.5 mil to be distributed at the MEC's discretion....

Basically that means they can give it to whoever they see fit. I'm betting all those ALPA nay-sayers (e.g. Joe Merchant, ohPlease, scarlet, etc.) get jack.

 

[Medeco]

I am fully aware of the give and take of negotiations and agree that it must happen from both sides.

My ultimate point was that I hope everyone will spread the word to each other that this needs to be reviewed carefully.

Yes, I agree it will pass, that is what I was saying before.

Just, remember that there MAY be a reason big enough not to vote yes for.

Medeco

 

[~~~^~~~]

Nobody seems to be considering scope.

Can anyone advise what will happen when the CRJ200's start getting phased out? Current fuel prices and potential slot controls do not bode well for 40 and 50 seat jets. There are rumors of trades being considered which would send RJ's off to China.

Anyone know if the Delta/SkyWest/ASA jets are involved? Looking forward, does the contract address this potential in a way that ASA pilots will retain their jobs, positions and pay?

While everyone focuses on the money and scheduling, now is the time to play chicken little looking forward and considering how section 1 would function in the event of a sale, or aircraft swap for jets that would have to be operated at another carrier.

Had scope been done properly in the last contract there would be no Shuttle, Freedom, Mesa, Chautauqua, Big Sky, SkyWest, Express Jet, Republic, etc... One of the many reasons for not merging ASA into Delta was the lack of scope language in ASA's contract.

If you go to Delta's own museum, the end of the timeline for ASA shows it merged into Delta. That is what everyone though was happening when that sign was made. Obviously history tells us something else happened.

Scope remains the most important part of any contract and the ASA guys need to carefully consider what might be in their future, best and worst case.

 

[Medeco]

If only 60% of this pilot group (eligible) vote on this contract that took this long and this much fight to get...I will forever be embarrased to work here!

That is how I feel now, because of our crappy (management)leadership.

There will always be apathy, in any voting process.

Its also called ignorance.

Medeco

 

[John Pennekamp]

The $13.5 mil to be distributed at the MEC's discretion....

Basically that means they can give it to whoever they see fit. I'm betting all those ALPA nay-sayers (e.g. Joe Merchant, ohPlease, scarlet, etc.) get jack.

Very nice! An MEC committee chairman opines to stiff some pilots for publicly disagreeing with the MEC. No, the union NEVER retaliates for dissent.

Even though you were joking, this post was in very poor taste!!!

 

[Medeco]

Fins,

In brief, best I understand based on rumors of the language.

Scope hangs on our binding agreement with the holding company and the no furlough clause combined together.

In other words, Skywest Inc will have little to gain by swapping out aircraft and giving them to Skywest or someone else.

At some point if they do this they will reach a point at which ASA has too many pilots, yet they cannot furlough, they also have to keep the pilots with the planes at some tipping point too.

The theory being, they have no incentive to take from ASA and give to others without a heavy price.

Medeco

 

[John Pennekamp]

Fins,

In brief, best I understand based on rumors of the language.

It is, in fact, all rumor, because the MEC has not yet released the actual scope language publicly. I feel this in and of itself is a red flag.

Scope hangs on our binding agreement with the holding company and the no furlough clause combined together.

Yes. From what I've heard from an insider, it will all hang on the no furlough clause. Let's hope there isn't a "force majure" event to invalidate it like all of the legacy carriers had.

In other words, Skywest Inc will have little to gain by swapping out aircraft and giving them to Skywest or someone else.

In theory. Unless they find a way around it (force majure? bankruptcy of a subsidiary, a'la Mesaba?)

At some point if they do this they will reach a point at which ASA has too many pilots, yet they cannot furlough, they also have to keep the pilots with the planes at some tipping point too.

More than 4 airplanes per year. That's a lot. And it applies to transfers, not retirements.

The theory being, they have no incentive to take from ASA and give to others without a heavy price.

In theory. Until they find a way around it.

Medeco

Yes, scope may be the sticking point of this TA. We're all cheering the $$$ and work rules, but that won't mean jack if ASA is gone next year. Read carefully and buyer beware!

 

[WWEfan]

Very nice! An MEC committee chairman opines to stiff some pilots for publicly disagreeing with the MEC. No, the union NEVER retaliates for dissent.

Even though you were joking, this post was in very poor taste!!!

Woohoo! I struck a nerve! I thought flightinfo was a forum for stuff like this. And if you know I was joking, why take such offense? LMAO!

I don't know who this MEC committe chair you speak of is. This account is shared by many at ASA so you have no idea who I am. Why would you try to call him/her out like that? Speaking of poor taste.....

 

[John Pennekamp]

Woohoo! I struck a nerve! I thought flightinfo was a forum for stuff like this. And if you know I was joking, why take such offense? LMAO!

I don't know who this MEC committe chair you speak of is. This account is shared by many at ASA so you have no idea who I am. Why would you try to call him/her out like that? Speaking of poor taste.....

That was the weakest apology I've ever seen in my life.

And isn't sharing an account a violation of forum rules? What the matter, too cheap to each pay the $10?

 

[79%N1]

Wow...18 pages and we havent even seen the dang TA yet!

This is gonna get real good soon.