ASA PBS Passes

[wms]

PS I as very junior until a month ago and now I'm very senior. My vote was yes given both situations.

 

[maxcackel]

Wrong. We all win with PBS. We get the luxury of keeping our jobs, and proving to Jerry that we are willing to play ball. Management gets to bid for more work since we look more competitive.

WE would have been the only losers if we had voted this down. Jerry would just use that as proof that we aren't a good group of pilots to keep around, and shrink us one by one.

So by this logic we better give the company anything they want when they ask or Jerry will shrink us and we will all be out of a job? Not just sheep but stupid sheep!!!

 

[crj567]

The company saves money w/ PBS if they didn't then why push for it and why would most every other carrier both maojr and regional have it?

We make vast improvements to our monthly QOL by having greater ctrl over our skds. Maybe you don't care about QOL but most of us do. As others have tried to explain to you PBS was able to be negotiated rather than rammed down our throat. This is key as we were abe to pick our vendor and get better options in contract language.

The problems that come up we can work on during open book.

If you actually think we are making "vast improvements to our QOL and skds" as you assert, please save this post. Get back to me by this fall, and we will once again compare notes.

-There is no way any improvement to QOL or skds is going to come from any PBS vendor or program. If they put crappy tips into PBS (as they surely will,) we will only get crappy trips out the other side.

-To assume this is any type of "improvement" is as insane as believing our travel benefits and ESOP programs were actually "enhanced" somehow.

 

[LazyLightnin']

Not being integrated to work 6 days in a row is a vast QOL improvement in my mind.

 

[OCP]

Yep-

As if we needed more proof how dumb our group has become. There are no winners with this PBS agreement.

(I think this poor soul lost the coin toss concerning whether or not to be struck repeatedly in the head with a framing hammer.)

-It has "worked for centuries."

Prove me wrong smart guy.

 

[Tarzan]

So by this logic we better give the company anything they want when they ask or Jerry will shrink us and we will all be out of a job? Not just sheep but stupid sheep!!!

No. The logic goes that if the company wants something, we negotiate to get what we can. When the pilot group wants something, the company negotiates to get what it wants out of the deal.

Where are you that you think that everything will be fine and we can ask for and get anything? The you have the audacity to start in with the sheep comments simply because people don't agree with your highly valued opinion?

Just wow.....

 

[blesko]

No. The logic goes that if the company wants something, we negotiate to get what we can. When the pilot group wants something, the company negotiates to get what it wants out of the deal.

Where are you that you think that everything will be fine and we can ask for and get anything? The you have the audacity to start in with the sheep comments simply because people don't agree with your highly valued opinion?

Just wow.....

Where is the discussion from SH and those in the puzzle palace about cost metrics? During our contract negotiations, we were told we had to meet x cost by y year, correct? Our union was so d*mn concerned about spewing all the gee whiz features of this software system to the pilot group, that in my mind, didn't address the real issue: What does this do for us financially (as a pilot group AND company financials) to make us a viable feed partner???

Where would our current number take us if we voted no, and where would they be anticipated with any anticipated future "growth." PBS will only work if we get growth....NT says growth is virtually certain with the passage of PBS.....I hope he's right.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

So by this logic we better give the company anything they want when they ask or Jerry will shrink us and we will all be out of a job? Not just sheep but stupid sheep!!!

Everything in balance.

 

[crj567]

Prove me wrong smart guy.

Once this mess is implemented, there will be no question who is wrong.

-We will see-like it or not.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Not being integrated to work 6 days in a row is a vast QOL improvement in my mind.

Just got off 6 days in a row thanks to PBS(not by choice)!!! Yes, I know you guys have a far better PBS than we do...

 

[maxcackel]

Not being integrated to work 6 days in a row is a vast QOL improvement in my mind.

Oh yea that's right, PBS will never make you work six in a row. Hahahahahahahahahahhahhaahahhahahahahahahahhahahhahahahahhah..
..................hahahahhahahahahahahhahahahhah. cough cough hahahahahahhahahhahahahhahahah and a tear of laughter.

 

[maxcackel]

I say dual qual and no 401k match that's what we need. Come on guys we can do it.

 

[Speedtape]

If every pilot wanted the same type schedule, then PBS would be of little value. Because we all want something different, and even that can change month to month, PBS will be useful.

Conventional line building software build lines starting with patterns until it starts running out of pairings that it can build a pattern. It then starts patching pairings together until it can no longer build complete lines. Then open time is left over. More open time is created when conflicts are created with non-flying events, which creates partial trips. All this requires a high number of reserves to cover potential open time that is not picked up by regular pilot. Utilizing reserves that are paid guarantee that don't fly anywhere near 75 hours is expensive. Conventional line bidding is inefficient and requires more staffing.

PBS eliminates conflicts, allows more regular lines to be built, and results in less need for reserves--about 1/3 less. For the most part, the smaller cadre of reserves are only used for sick calls and occasional IROPS. Less pilots are needed. In addition, PBS can distribute flying to regular pilots more evenly so that at whatever block hour level, every regular pilot is doing about the same amount of work. This forces more pairings down by capping what a pilot can fly. It makes all pilots with regular lines productive to the same level. Hours and pairings forced down are flown at cheaper rates of pay.

PBS is a staffing tool that spreads the work, and when block hours increase, to some degree, more work can be done by less pilots compared to it's absence. Savings result.

 

[Speedtape]

Oh yea that's right, PBS will never make you work six in a row. Hahahahahahahahahahhahhaahahhahahahahahahahhahahhahahahahhah..
..................hahahahhahahahahahahhahahahhah. cough cough hahahahahahhahahhahahahhahahah and a tear of laughter.

Even this PBS can make some pilots work 6 in a row if the bidder does not learn the system and place a proper bid. In the absence of a bid, insufficient preferences, or the absence of a default bid, then the software gets full authority and uses it's default settings. If the information given at the roadshow is correct, when the software has full authority, it will give award highest credit trips(4 days) on weekends, holidays and any areas of stacking to reduce open time. It could also award additional pairings that could create a 6 day sequence if it is FAR legal.

The objective of the bidder is to submit a bid to achieve his "dream line" of choice, thereby denying authority to the defaults of the software. If a bidder gets a 6 day sequence, the blame would squarely lie on the bidder and his improper or lack of bidding.

My prediction is that in one year, most everyone will love the Flightline Prefbid. It will make your life better, if you take the time to learn how to use it properly. It certainly allows more options to the bidder than line bidding. Personally, I like more options. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

 

[maxcackel]

Even this PBS can make some pilots work 6 in a row if the bidder does not learn the system and place a proper bid. In the absence of a bid, insufficient preferences, or the absence of a default bid, then the software gets full authority and uses it's default settings. If the information given at the roadshow is correct, when the software has full authority, it will give award highest credit trips(4 days) on weekends, holidays and any areas of stacking to reduce open time. It could also award additional pairings that could create a 6 day sequence if it is FAR legal.

The objective of the bidder is to submit a bid to achieve his "dream line" of choice, thereby denying authority to the defaults of the software. If a bidder gets a 6 day sequence, the blame would squarely lie on the bidder and his improper or lack of bidding.

My prediction is that in one year, most everyone will love the Flightline Prefbid. It will make your life better, if you take the time to learn how to use it properly. It certainly allows more options to the bidder than line bidding. Personally, I like more options. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Some? Could? improper or lack of bidding? You think the all line holders wont work over the beginning of the month or "integration" for five or six in a row? Ya the top percentage of the group like before but for everyone else it still has to cover end of month to beginning of the month flying. I cant wait for you guys to choke on this thing. The senior guys will love it and probably swallow!

 

[Speedtape]

Some? Could? improper or lack of bidding? You think the all line holders wont work over the beginning of the month or "integration" for five or six in a row? Ya the top percentage of the group like before but for everyone else it still has to cover end of month to beginning of the month flying. I cant wait for you guys to choke on this thing. The senior guys will love it and probably swallow!

Clearly, you don't understand the system. PBS will place more burden on the bidder to achieve his preferred schedule. Trips and flying have to be covered! PBS logic is defaulted to assign high credit pairings on weekends, holidays, and as it progresses in the bid awarding--it will assign trips that start to stack up. The object of the bidder is to circumvent, negate, or mitigate the system logic and default settings by using sorts to develop the bidder's preferences. The strategy for the bidder is to be somewhat specific and then to "loosen" up his preferences so that he can be awarded trips, days on, days off, in the result that he desires.

All flying will be covered as it is today. By freeing up the collective bidders' preferences and subsequent awarded pairings, greater satisfaction will be gained throughout each "position." Pairings will be available for awarding that are not available today due to the way "Conventional line building" works.

Most pilots will not build their preferences in a "pattern" as is done today under line bidding construction. This concept is very rigid and gives the entire pilot group little flexibility in building a "preferred" schedule during the initial bid. Thus, it requires the "hope" of being able to modify through the current line completion and intitial open time process. Ideally, swapping with open time would also help, but we are all too familiar with the constraints of swapping and red arrow days. "Conventional line bidding" limits satisfaction to the collective bidders because of it's rigidity.

Under PBS. most pilots, when the learning curve diminishes, will build their flying schedule around their "known" personal schedule to the greatest degree possible, but certainly to a greater degree under PBS than under today's "Convential line bidding."

However, there are downsides to PBS. In the initial process, all pilots will be capped to some value below the top of the credit window. Since there will be much less open time left, there is less chance to build your line value after the intial line bidding process. Those who like to maximize line value will be much more restricted. because of less initial open time. This new method will limit everyone, but especially junior pilots in a position. What little open time is available,(PBS is designed to ideally eliminate open time) will go very senior within each position. However, again, there will be very little open time from the start.

The new way a pilot will build line value, is to pickup portions from other pilots. This should be very dynamic as many pilots will opt to modify or tailor undesirable pairings to meet their personal requirements, i.e., eliminate early reports, eliminate late releases, eliminate a round trip or 2 in the middle of a trip so that the pilot can attend to his personal business. PBS will be a different world, but we will adopt.

Again, PBS offers more flexibility and options than rigid, conventional line building. Most pilots like options and flexibility because most of us are "control freaks" to some degree. PBS will give each pilot more control over his individual schedule. More control means that he can be a better bidder, which should translate into a better schedule--if the pilot bidder takes the time to learn the rules. Some will, some want, as always! Those who do, should be able to get better schedules than they get today. I like flexibility and options--how about your?

 

[CFI2766]

I say dual qual and no 401k match that's what we need. Come on guys we can do it.

I'm not thrilled with the idea of dual qual, but I think it can be done safely, and fairly to the pilot group. I think that enacting dual qual for the entire pilot group would be an enormously expensive and time consuming project for ASA, no matter how it would be implemented. I am not in favor of the pilot group having to bear one single cent of the cost for the training and scheduling nightmares that would come with dual qual.

To advocate any reduction in company match in 401k is simply ignorance.

 

[CFI2766]

Oh yeah, speed: d@mn fine summary.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Even this PBS can make some pilots work 6 in a row if the bidder does not learn the system and place a proper bid. In the absence of a bid, insufficient preferences, or the absence of a default bid, then the software gets full authority and uses it's default settings. If the information given at the roadshow is correct, when the software has full authority, it will give award highest credit trips(4 days) on weekends, holidays and any areas of stacking to reduce open time. It could also award additional pairings that could create a 6 day sequence if it is FAR legal.

The objective of the bidder is to submit a bid to achieve his "dream line" of choice, thereby denying authority to the defaults of the software. If a bidder gets a 6 day sequence, the blame would squarely lie on the bidder and his improper or lack of bidding.

My prediction is that in one year, most everyone will love the Flightline Prefbid. It will make your life better, if you take the time to learn how to use it properly. It certainly allows more options to the bidder than line bidding. Personally, I like more options. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Or in our case, the pairings can be so bad(barely at minimum daily guarantee), that it will schedule you for 6 days in a row just to get you to 81 hours for the month...

 

[LazyLightnin']

Bitch, bitch, bitch

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Bitch, bitch, bitch

Seriously, does it ever stop? I'm beginning to see what all the other pilot groups have been saying about us for all these years.

 

[maxcackel]

I'm not thrilled with the idea of dual qual, but I think it can be done safely, and fairly to the pilot group. I think that enacting dual qual for the entire pilot group would be an enormously expensive and time consuming project for ASA, no matter how it would be implemented. I am not in favor of the pilot group having to bear one single cent of the cost for the training and scheduling nightmares that would come with dual qual.

To advocate any reduction in company match in 401k is simply ignorance.

It's sarcasm.... read it again.

 

[crj567]

Or in our case, the pairings can be so bad(barely at minimum daily guarantee), that it will schedule you for 6 days in a row just to get you to 81 hours for the month...

Yep-

Almost everyone has overlooked this higly likely scenario.

-We just gave it all away-and so few are smart enough to understand it.

 

[1080P]

Cry Cry it's the end of the world no matter what happens, how about you wait and see what happens. Damn you guys are the biggest group of bitches I've ever heard. The problem is that most have never had a real job in their life and they think the regionals should cater to their every need. If you're being treated so bad then quit and go work for someone else, it is what it is and your bitching will never change it. Try and focus on life outside of work, now let it rip

 

[shamrock]

With all the negativity about PBS here I would've thought that there would be more people getting their names on the "PBS will suck and I'm reserving an I TOLD YOU SO for future use" thread over on the ALPA board...

 

[Tarzan]

Cry Cry it's the end of the world no matter what happens, how about you wait and see what happens. Damn you guys are the biggest group of bitches I've ever heard. The problem is that most have never had a real job in their life and they think the regionals should cater to their every need. If you're being treated so bad then quit and go work for someone else, it is what it is and your bitching will never change it. Try and focus on life outside of work, now let it rip

Excellent synopsis. ASA pilots have arguably the best contract in the fee for departure segment yet carry one as though they have it worse than everyone else. The complainers that generally go overboard seem to have only ASA as their sole experience in the real world. Let them all go get some perspective elsewhere and come back and see how bad it really is. I got news you little crying candy a$$es, it ain't that bad.

 

[sweptback]

Excellent synopsis. ASA pilots have arguably the best contract in the fee for departure segment yet carry one as though they have it worse than everyone else. The complainers that generally go overboard seem to have only ASA as their sole experience in the real world. Let them all go get some perspective elsewhere and come back and see how bad it really is. I got news you little crying candy a$$es, it ain't that bad.

That's true. Anybody who's worked at more than one airline knows that while ASA has its faults, it's much better than average.

 

[Poppa Hodax]

Even this PBS can make some pilots work 6 in a row if the bidder does not learn the system and place a proper bid.
[snip]

While this is true, the system can also make you work five or six days in a row if there is nothing but low credit trips left to choose from by the time it is your turn. Lamentably, there is no language to requiring the Company to build efficient pairings. Given the Company's love for 30 hour overnights, junior guys that want TLV plus some should expect to work more than four in a row.

I never thought I would find something positive to say about integration, but at least you could only work 6 in a row at the beginning of the month.

If a bidder gets a 6 day sequence, the blame would squarely lie on the bidder and his improper or lack of bidding.
[snip]

Not true. Again, if there is nothing left but low credit trips when your turn comes around, even a thoroughly commanding knowledge of the system, software, and loopholes can't save you from 6 day trips built of low credit pairings.

With all the negativity about PBS here I would've thought that there would be more people getting their names on the "PBS will suck and I'm reserving an I TOLD YOU SO for future use" thread over on the ALPA board...

I thought most of the members that posted on the ALPA board were pro-PBS. Only 196 folks voted against it, which isn't that many, honestly. I'm curious how many of those railing against it really voted against it.

[snip]...while ASA has its faults, it's much better than average.

This is amazingly true, and something that needs to be remembered. ASA, overall, is a good place to work. I like the crews, and I like the flying. I like the "whoever dat callin' Atlanta no change" culture that is unique to the ASA experience. For all its faults, ASA is still a great place to work, particularly compared to other regional carriers.

Look, the PBS genie is out of the bottle. It is likely never going away. The People have spoken, for better or worse. For all you pro-PBS types, take your victory without malice. Nay voters, accept the defeat gracefully. PBS is here. There is no point belaboring the issue, particularly as we head into the long winter of negotiation. This is an exceptionally good time to work towards a unified pilot group. PBS specifically, and the Union's handing of it, have proven to be surprisingly emotional issues. Both sides need to make amends and peace as the Company has us in disadvantageous position: divided.

 

[samballs]

I'm not thrilled with the idea of dual qual, but I think it can be done safely, and fairly to the pilot group. I think that enacting dual qual for the entire pilot group would be an enormously expensive and time consuming project for ASA, no matter how it would be implemented. I am not in favor of the pilot group having to bear one single cent of the cost for the training and scheduling nightmares that would come with dual qual.

To advocate any reduction in company match in 401k is simply ignorance.

Wow, you are dumb. It was called sarcasm

 

[samballs]

Cry Cry it's the end of the world no matter what happens, how about you wait and see what happens. Damn you guys are the biggest group of bitches I've ever heard. The problem is that most have never had a real job in their life and they think the regionals should cater to their every need. If you're being treated so bad then quit and go work for someone else, it is what it is and your bitching will never change it. Try and focus on life outside of work, now let it rip

The bachelor guy best explains the ASA group