ASA DTW CP pulls IAD pilot offline for refusing aircraft

[bri5150]

First of all, this has nothing to do with skill. He isn't refusing the flight because he doesn't have the ability to fly the aircraft without the a/p. Secondly, you can be fatigued without and a/p but not be with one. It takes more energy to fly an aircraft without an a/p. When you say you are too fatigued for that aircraft, you are actually saying I am fine right now, but the extra energy it will take to fly without the a/p will make me fatigued by the time we land.

 

[CFI2766]

You know, with all that "threat and error management" stuff we go through in training, you'd think the company would abide by the same philosophy.

The most logical and reasonable post in this entire thread.

Remember:

SAFETY > COMPLETION FACTOR

 

[Freebrd]

First of all, this has nothing to do with skill. He isn't refusing the flight because he doesn't have the ability to fly the aircraft without the a/p. Secondly, you can be fatigued without and a/p but not be with one. It takes more energy to fly an aircraft without an a/p. When you say you are too fatigued for that aircraft, you are actually saying I am fine right now, but the extra energy it will take to fly without the a/p will make me fatigued by the time we land.

what a crock of shet man

 

[Oakum_Boy]

If a United captain had a 757 with three autopilots deferred, no APU, and whatever else and was told to take that POS to LGA, I'm pretty sure he/she would have declined.

Why should United passengers be subject to ride on an Expressjet airplane that apparently cannot be maintained to a reasonable standard??

Thanks for all that you do!

 

[bri5150]

what a crock of shet man

Why? Doesn't it take about 200% more energy to stare at a tube for a couple hours than being able to relax and look out the window? Is that not more fatiguing than running with an a/p? Instead of just saying it's crap, give a reason.

 

[Plainsman]

No kidding, I don't get paid near eno
ugh to go above and beyond for this place.

 

[79%N1]

No kidding, I don't get paid near eno
ugh to go above and beyond for this place.

Did you know the pay before you took the job? I mean, you have got to be kidding me! There are people who wait tables or clean bathrooms that make a lot less and take more pride than that!

No matter the pay, if you take a job, have some pride.

 

[Abernathy]

Did you know the pay before you took the job?

Funny, I was thinking something similar when the age 60 guys were whining to change the retirement age.

 

[HalinTexas]

I think it's a pretty weak excuse to refuse the airplane just because of an autopilot. If you're too fatigued to hand fly, you're too fatigued for an engine failure, flap malfunction... whatever, if the A/P is working. You're out of RVSM, so flying at the lower altitudes is easier, and safer. I'm also presuming there's still a flight director and a first officer.

It is not unsafe to hand fly a jet or any other aircraft, I don't care what the weather or the FOs experience is. It's been done for generations. If you've ever flown a Metro, Jetstream or B1900 you'd know how to deal with it on a daily basis.

Granted, I wasn't there and not privy to all the info. I've called in fatigued myself, greatly angering the company and inconveniencing the passengers. I was never called on the carpet. I've never called in fatigued or refused an aircraft just to convenience me.

 

[homerjdispatch]

This has BH written all over it, he hates it when he thinks pilots are mutinying, like refusing a POS A/C. Hand flying a 200 for 2 hours at FL380 is fatiguing. If I was at the end of a long day, with many messes I wouldn't have gone either.

Like a 200 would EVER make it to FL380!

 

[Freebrd]

One made it 410

 

[Simon Says]

I think it's a pretty weak excuse to refuse the airplane just because of an autopilot. If you're too fatigued to hand fly, you're too fatigued for an engine failure, flap malfunction... whatever, if the A/P is working. You're out of RVSM, so flying at the lower altitudes is easier, and safer. I'm also presuming there's still a flight director and a first officer.

It is not unsafe to hand fly a jet or any other aircraft, I don't care what the weather or the FOs experience is. It's been done for generations. If you've ever flown a Metro, Jetstream or B1900 you'd know how to deal with it on a daily basis.

Granted, I wasn't there and not privy to all the info. I've called in fatigued myself, greatly angering the company and inconveniencing the passengers. I was never called on the carpet. I've never called in fatigued or refused an aircraft just to convenience me.

And you are the guy that doesn't know that there is a difference between legal and safe. You go get em John Wayne.

 

[HalinTexas]

And you are the guy that doesn't know that there is a difference between legal and safe. You go get em John Wayne.

Actually, I do. Both times I fatigued, once in Canada, the second in the U.K. were both legal, could have easily "shown" to be legal, but they weren't safe.

Hand flying is not Cowboy flying. It's flying. All that time in the "Deisel Navajo" must have been unsafe. Is that what you're saying? Again, there are two pilots in the cockpit. You can take turns turning on the same flight. Is there not two FD on a "Hoser Jet?" If so, is there a CWS function with the A/P? I'd be a little scared to leave the cockpit to pee if you were flying. Might end up like that Indian carrier. Or the Japanese pilot....

 

[ASA_Aviator]

And you are the guy that doesn't know that there is a difference between legal and safe. You go get em John Wayne.

Ok, I'll bite. Define safe.

 

[Simon Says]

Ok, I'll bite. Define safe.

That is like telling me to define pornagraphy. It is an individual definition.

Safe for me may not be safe for someone else and vice-versa.

 

[Simon Says]

Actually, I do. Both times I fatigued, once in Canada, the second in the U.K. were both legal, could have easily "shown" to be legal, but they weren't safe.

Hand flying is not Cowboy flying. It's flying. All that time in the "Deisel Navajo" must have been unsafe. Is that what you're saying? Again, there are two pilots in the cockpit. You can take turns turning on the same flight. Is there not two FD on a "Hoser Jet?" If so, is there a CWS function with the A/P? I'd be a little scared to leave the cockpit to pee if you were flying. Might end up like that Indian carrier. Or the Japanese pilot....

I should re-cant my comment to you. The only portions I have issues with are these two sentences. Everything else I would agree with. Maybe you could expand on what you said below.


I think it's a pretty weak excuse to refuse the airplane just because of an autopilot. If you're too fatigued to hand fly, you're too fatigued for an engine failure, flap malfunction... whatever, if the A/P is working.

It is not unsafe to hand fly a jet or any other aircraft, I don't care what the weather or the FOs experience is.

The two statements I don't find to be true. There are things that can be deferred individually, but may not be deferred with other systems deferred. So, back to my example of denying a flight based on these four factors. I told the CP that I will do the flight with 3 factors, but not all 4. One had to change.

1. Autopilot defered
2. Green FO (second flight off O.E.)
3. Flying MEM to BOS
4. Thunderstorms along the route and up and down the Eastern Seaboard.

Take one thing out of that mix and I will do it. With all 4, I would be overloaded and it would not be safe, even though the dispatch release and the flight was legal.

 

[B727FA]

One made it 410

Ouch.

 

[HalinTexas]

Maybe you could expand on what you said below.

OK, I will.


1. Autopilot defered
Not in and of itself a refusal to fly. As you said there are other factors, such as destination, alternate and enroute WX, RVSM and fuel requirements. Any other write ups? Does the FD work? Above 10,000 the FO flies.

2. Green FO (second flight off O.E.)
Depends. Have I flown with him/her before? What was his/her experience prior to employment? This also depends on what one thinks of the training department. Generally speaking this would be last on my list unless he's incompetent.

3. Flying MEM to BOS
Also depends. What leg of the day? How's the day going so far? Dest./Alt. WX? As long as it's not on an OTS.

4. Thunderstorms along the route and up and down the Eastern Seaboard.
Again, depends. Isolate, scattered, systemic, embedded, destination, alternate? This could be number 2, depending on the "quality" of the FO. Lots of variables here, but it depends on the radar, satellite and forecasts. Granted, evening operations in one of the NYNJPA (Sewark, La Garbage or the Swamp) airports might change my mind.

I also said this:

Granted, I wasn't there and not privy to all the info

Calling in fatigued and bragging about it is unseemly and unprofessional. Saying or thinking that you "stuck it to the man" is counter-productive and solves nothing. Now, if there are multiple deferrals adding to the complexity, this also changes things. Been there, done that, and pushed back, but I had a case with multiple factors every time.

 

[Metro752]

One made it 410

HAHA ha

 

[Simon Says]

OK, I will.


1. Autopilot defered
Not in and of itself a refusal to fly. As you said there are other factors, such as destination, alternate and enroute WX, RVSM and fuel requirements. Any other write ups? Does the FD work? Above 10,000 the FO flies.

2. Green FO (second flight off O.E.)
Depends. Have I flown with him/her before? What was his/her experience prior to employment? This also depends on what one thinks of the training department. Generally speaking this would be last on my list unless he's incompetent.

3. Flying MEM to BOS
Also depends. What leg of the day? How's the day going so far? Dest./Alt. WX? As long as it's not on an OTS.

4. Thunderstorms along the route and up and down the Eastern Seaboard.
Again, depends. Isolate, scattered, systemic, embedded, destination, alternate? This could be number 2, depending on the "quality" of the FO. Lots of variables here, but it depends on the radar, satellite and forecasts. Granted, evening operations in one of the NYNJPA (Sewark, La Garbage or the Swamp) airports might change my mind.

I also said this:



Calling in fatigued and bragging about it is unseemly and unprofessional. Saying or thinking that you "stuck it to the man" is counter-productive and solves nothing. Now, if there are multiple deferrals adding to the complexity, this also changes things. Been there, done that, and pushed back, but I had a case with multiple factors every time.

Ok, so for the most part I think we agree. Sorry for the John Wayne comment. BTW, just to be clear I wasn't the one that this thread is about. I was just trying to argue the point that "just because it's legal doesn't make it safe", and vice-versa.

And it really is a tough decision to refuse a flight based on safety when everything is perfectly legal.