ASA DTW CP pulls IAD pilot offline for refusing aircraft

[blesko]

I've kept my mouth shut here, but its time to chime in. We have a company challenging of an FAR. 91.3 "captains authority." This is a serious issue folks. Furthermore The pilot-in-command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.” FAR 121.535 (d) further states: “Each pilot in command of an aircraft is, during flight time, in command of the aircraft and crew and is responsible for the safety of the passengers, crewmembers, cargo, and airplane.”

Read the PREAMBLE to the MEL. I doubt many of you have, but I'll post the highpoints.

Operators are responsible for exercising the necessary operational control to ensure that an acceptable level of safety is maintained. When operating with multiple inoperative items, the interrelationships between those items and the effect on aircraft operation and crew workload will be considered.​

Assuming what I read from this is true (this is FI afterall), the PIC did not determine there was an acceptable level of safety with the multiple deferrals. Furthermore, when MEL's are written, they must account for the "next critical failure." With four deferrals, what's next? ​

Airplanes most certainly can and should be hand flown from time to time, and can be hand flown well and safely. BUT, do we handfly in the sim during an emergency situation? No, the autopilot is ALWAYS used. You think the crew is weak, take your next pro check with the autopilot off and let me know afterward how well it went. ​

The crews, in complying with the MEL MUST comply with the preamble and consider the next critical failure. ​

 

[ASA_Aviator]

I've kept my mouth shut here, but its time to chime in. We have a company challenging of an FAR. 91.3 "captains authority." This is a serious issue folks. Furthermore The pilot-in-command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.” FAR 121.535 (d) further states: “Each pilot in command of an aircraft is, during flight time, in command of the aircraft and crew and is responsible for the safety of the passengers, crewmembers, cargo, and airplane.”

Read the PREAMBLE to the MEL. I doubt many of you have, but I'll post the highpoints.

Operators are responsible for exercising the necessary operational control to ensure that an acceptable level of safety is maintained. When operating with multiple inoperative items, the interrelationships between those items and the effect on aircraft operation and crew workload will be considered.​

Assuming what I read from this is true (this is FI afterall), the PIC did not determine there was an acceptable level of safety with the multiple deferrals. Furthermore, when MEL's are written, they must account for the "next critical failure." With four deferrals, what's next? ​

Airplanes most certainly can and should be hand flown from time to time, and can be hand flown well and safely. BUT, do we handfly in the sim during an emergency situation? No, the autopilot is ALWAYS used. You think the crew is weak, take your next pro check with the autopilot off and let me know afterward how well it went. ​

The crews, in complying with the MEL MUST comply with the preamble and consider the next critical failure. ​

I think this thread has a bad case of "we don't know the entire story." But in typical Flight Info fashion, we have jumped to a lot of conclusions.

 

[JumpersAway]

Why is it so difficult for many folks to understand it has everything to do with workload and stress management, and nothing to do with stick and rudder skills. This post is rampant with posters that should continue to remain first officers, based on poor judgement and views of what being an airline captain is truly about. Sitting in the left seat and having the 4th stripe has far more to do with judgement than stick and rudder skills.

It's fine flying with a deferred AP until something else breaks................have fun doing all that with multiple deferrals, a green FO, and in heavy weather. Running an intensive QRH procedure with all that is going to be all sorts of sporty.

 

["TheBigPicture"]

Can't hand fly in RVSM....but I still get your point.

Actually you can, as long as ATC agrees to it...but I get YOUR point.

 

[TOOL CRIB]

I've got a great idea... you ready for this? Its called...a jump to conclusions mat!

 

[bri5150]

First of all, this has nothing to do with skill. He isn't refusing the flight because he doesn't have the ability to fly the aircraft without the a/p. Secondly, you can be fatigued without and a/p but not be with one. It takes more energy to fly an aircraft without an a/p. When you say you are too fatigued for that aircraft, you are actually saying I am fine right now, but the extra energy it will take to fly without the a/p will make me fatigued by the time we land.

 

[CFI2766]

You know, with all that "threat and error management" stuff we go through in training, you'd think the company would abide by the same philosophy.

The most logical and reasonable post in this entire thread.

Remember:

SAFETY > COMPLETION FACTOR

 

[Freebrd]

First of all, this has nothing to do with skill. He isn't refusing the flight because he doesn't have the ability to fly the aircraft without the a/p. Secondly, you can be fatigued without and a/p but not be with one. It takes more energy to fly an aircraft without an a/p. When you say you are too fatigued for that aircraft, you are actually saying I am fine right now, but the extra energy it will take to fly without the a/p will make me fatigued by the time we land.

what a crock of shet man

 

[Oakum_Boy]

If a United captain had a 757 with three autopilots deferred, no APU, and whatever else and was told to take that POS to LGA, I'm pretty sure he/she would have declined.

Why should United passengers be subject to ride on an Expressjet airplane that apparently cannot be maintained to a reasonable standard??

Thanks for all that you do!

 

[bri5150]

what a crock of shet man

Why? Doesn't it take about 200% more energy to stare at a tube for a couple hours than being able to relax and look out the window? Is that not more fatiguing than running with an a/p? Instead of just saying it's crap, give a reason.

 

[Plainsman]

No kidding, I don't get paid near eno
ugh to go above and beyond for this place.

 

[79%N1]

No kidding, I don't get paid near eno
ugh to go above and beyond for this place.

Did you know the pay before you took the job? I mean, you have got to be kidding me! There are people who wait tables or clean bathrooms that make a lot less and take more pride than that!

No matter the pay, if you take a job, have some pride.

 

[Abernathy]

Did you know the pay before you took the job?

Funny, I was thinking something similar when the age 60 guys were whining to change the retirement age.

 

[HalinTexas]

I think it's a pretty weak excuse to refuse the airplane just because of an autopilot. If you're too fatigued to hand fly, you're too fatigued for an engine failure, flap malfunction... whatever, if the A/P is working. You're out of RVSM, so flying at the lower altitudes is easier, and safer. I'm also presuming there's still a flight director and a first officer.

It is not unsafe to hand fly a jet or any other aircraft, I don't care what the weather or the FOs experience is. It's been done for generations. If you've ever flown a Metro, Jetstream or B1900 you'd know how to deal with it on a daily basis.

Granted, I wasn't there and not privy to all the info. I've called in fatigued myself, greatly angering the company and inconveniencing the passengers. I was never called on the carpet. I've never called in fatigued or refused an aircraft just to convenience me.

 

[homerjdispatch]

This has BH written all over it, he hates it when he thinks pilots are mutinying, like refusing a POS A/C. Hand flying a 200 for 2 hours at FL380 is fatiguing. If I was at the end of a long day, with many messes I wouldn't have gone either.

Like a 200 would EVER make it to FL380!