ASA DTW CP pulls IAD pilot offline for refusing aircraft

[Brody1]

I had a similar issue with a ATL CP back in 1999. Refused a E-120 because of no working radar. Area forecast showed TP in the vicinity. I refused the airplane with out a radar. This former CP freaked out, and then made me and him fly the trip. (Removed the FO to prove to me that it was not needed) Of course we got a new radar control panel and blasted off.
In the end the radar was needed, but the action desire for you to fly an airplane with a perfectly legal deferral was the same. Stand your ground, you do not have to sign the dispatch release. One thing I learned from this is, be tactful and forceful. Do not refuse a jet on a company radio freq, and call them on the phone.

If they want to have administrative action on a pilot, so be it, but you have a moral and legal obligation not just to the yourself, but to your passengers and FAR's. They will get over it, but if they do not the grievance and arbitration process are great at resolving these sort of things.

The grievance and arbitration process are NOT great at resolving these issues. I can think of several cases where honest, well-intentioned pilots were hung out to dry. Not every time, mind you, but enough to know that you're rolling the dice when you choose to go through the process. Despite this, I strongly advocate standing your ground if you feel you're right. It's just as important for the 'next' pilot to back up the decision of the original pilot's refusal to fly. In my experience, backing up a fellow pilot's 'no-go' decision is extremely rare at the regional level. One does not have to necessarily agree with the pilot's decision, but just agree that every pilot does (and should) have the right-of-refusal. One day it might be you.

 

[SpaceShipEarth]

20 goes to 380???

 

[dustrpilot]

Screw that. Last flight of the day, no APU, fuel indicator problems, planes been making turds all day and now the A/P is broken too? No thanks.

 

[Simon Says]

You are either fatigued or not. It has nothing to do with the mtc discrepancies on the aircraft. You can't tell the CP that you're fatigued if the AP is deferred but not fatigued if you get an aircraft that has a working AP. Gotta be more to the story.

Absolutely you can.

 

[Simon Says]

An autopilot deferred, by itself, is no problem. In fact I'm a staunch advocate of being able to hand-fly the airplane (raw data if need be) in any configuration at any time.

But, here's that thing:

Accidents (and incidents) are usually caused by many links in the chain. These links are usually not significant risks by themselves, i.e., deferred autopilot/pack/apu, weather, long day, FNG, short runway, etc. Many of these links are inevitable, and we willingly take them on knowing they are part of the task at hand.

At some point, though, the known links eventually, add up to make an unsafe situation - especially when we consider the latent risks inherent in any flight. It is up to pilots to decide when there are already too many links in the equation and either remove some of the links, or cut the chain altogether.

Unfortunately, the type and number of links allowed is not spelled out in black and white. And, there is only ONE person on the planet who can make that call.

Very well said. I agree 100%

I have been here almost 14 years and just a few months ago I refused an aircraft. 4 factors played a role. I told scheduling/dispatch/chief pilot...I will go if you change just one of the factors, but all 4 I was not going.
1. No autopilot
2. Thunderstorms along route of flight
3. Flight is on the eastern sea-board
4. Green FO

 

[DeucesWild]

1. No autopilot
2. Thunderstorms along route of flight
3. Flight is on the eastern sea-board
4. Green FO

Sounds like an adventure and welcome change from the same old, every flight is the same, let the A/P take us there, daily routine we get accustomed to.

You were weak to rufuse the aircraft.

 

[Medeco]

Sounds like an adventure and welcome change from the same old, every flight is the same, let the A/P take us there, daily routine we get accustomed to.

You were weak to rufuse the aircraft.

Paying passengers dont want an adventure, and knowing when to stand up and say no is far from weak.

Grow up...

 

[Flyguy1226]

How do we still have Green FOs right now?

 

[Medeco]

lowtime Fo's that were furloughed and did ZERO flying while out. We have them.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

20 goes to 380???

25 pax, ISA-5, 7000LBS of fuel, easy!

 

[altimaklr]

If you are too fatigued to fly without an A/P, how will you be able to handle an emergency? Can't fly the arrival into LGA? How about setting V/S to 1.5 and follow the FD. It's not rocket science and any captain, let alone FO should be able to do it. If you are too tired to fly without AP, then you are too tired to fly with it on and you should call out fatigued. If they MEL is legal and pax safety is not compromised (ie APU in the summer, etc), then stop being lazy and do your job.

 

[urflyingme?!]

Baloney. You guys are splitting hairs here. Guy refuses an Aircraft, last time I checked he was the PIC PILOT IN COMMAND. I've seen a guy who wouldn't do another trip without a BUG WASH. You know what happened? He got it. I've refused an aircraft for a seat cushion, and I'm an FO. We all complain about scheduling claiming "It's legal" and we know how weak that is. Just like the QRH operating in a vacuum. When we have more than one emergency it all goes out the door. Same here. Sure the MEL is legit, but pile on 5 other things and then the only person capable of determining if it is safe is the PIC. Not some suit in DFW.

 

[Speedtape]

Was the airplane certified w/o an autopilot?


NO autopilot--stay low where the air is thicker. It is much easier to hand fly in mid-20's.

 

[spudskier]

Why is DTW CP getting involved in IAD? Where's RP?

 

[dustrpilot]

Tired or not, the plane was a POS and needed some attention. That's reason enough right there. There was a perfectly good spare sitting there, swap into it and press on.
I don't know about too many other planes, but the CRJ MEL can have some serious gotchas with the right combinations of multiple deferrals. Its hard enough to keep up with them on a good day, much less the last leg after a trying day. Sounds as though this plane was a problem all day, so good on the crews for turning it down.

 

[bri5150]

An autopilot deferred, by itself, is no problem. In fact I'm a staunch advocate of being able to hand-fly the airplane (raw data if need be) in any configuration at any time.

But, here's that thing:

Accidents (and incidents) are usually caused by many links in the chain. These links are usually not significant risks by themselves, i.e., deferred autopilot/pack/apu, weather, long day, FNG, short runway, etc. Many of these links are inevitable, and we willingly take them on knowing they are part of the task at hand.

At some point, though, the known links eventually, add up to make an unsafe situation - especially when we consider the latent risks inherent in any flight. It is up to pilots to decide when there are already too many links in the equation and either remove some of the links, or cut the chain altogether.

Unfortunately, the type and number of links allowed is not spelled out in black and white. And, there is only ONE person on the planet who can make that call.

I was trying to formulate the perfect response to this thread, but now I don't have to. You couldn't have said it better. Right on. If this is the first leg after coming off a couple days off and the a/p is the only issue, let's go. If it is the last leg on day three flying through thunderstorms, no thanks.

Taking off with working equipment and having it fail enroute is different than taking off with equipment you know has failed. There is a 99.9% chance the a/p will be working when I land if I take off with it working. There is a 100% chance it will be broken when I land if I take off with it broken.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Why is DTW CP getting involved in IAD? Where's RP?

Because SH wanted blood and KH was the man to take it.

 

[kingairpilot]

I thought we were paid to FLY airplanes? If we can not do that job without an autopilot, we need to find a different profession.

If you are one of the guys/gals who are not confident enough in your abilities to hand fly, you should be looking for a different job!

Good for the CP for pulling them offline.

Wow, really? Go fly some real airplanes, in real weather, dealing with real people. This is not a macho bitchfest. It is a serious discussion that deals with SAFETY. If a pilot feels that SAFETY is being compromised, then it is up to that pilot to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

Remember, Just because you CAN does not mean that you SHOULD.

ka

ps, I am so glad that I was able to tunnel out of that place.

 

[crazy8]

Sounds like an adventure and welcome change from the same old, every flight is the same, let the A/P take us there, daily routine we get accustomed to.

You were weak to rufuse the aircraft.

I thought we were paid to FLY airplanes? If we can not do that job without an autopilot, we need to find a different profession.

If you are one of the guys/gals who are not confident enough in your abilities to hand fly, you should be looking for a different job!

Good for the CP for pulling them offline.

Pay no attention to the obvious trolling....this guy sounds like he has a few aliases on this forum.

 

[Simon Says]

Sounds like an adventure and welcome change from the same old, every flight is the same, let the A/P take us there, daily routine we get accustomed to.

You were weak to rufuse the aircraft.

Tell me why you think I was weak to refuse the aircraft and I will show you what the attitude profile of "machoism" and how that has lead to multiple aircraft disasters.

I have almost 15k hours and did not feel weak nor did I feel like less of a pilot. In fact, I don't think a whole lot of pilots have the ballz to refuse a perfectly legal flight based on safety. And I am sure you will agree that their is a difference between legal and safe. As PIC, I need to evaluate every situation for legallity, safety, and practicallity. All 3 have different definitions that I need to follow.

So, how was I weak to refuse a perfectly legal flight.