ASA DTW CP pulls IAD pilot offline for refusing aircraft

[altimaklr]

If you are too fatigued to fly without an A/P, how will you be able to handle an emergency? Can't fly the arrival into LGA? How about setting V/S to 1.5 and follow the FD. It's not rocket science and any captain, let alone FO should be able to do it. If you are too tired to fly without AP, then you are too tired to fly with it on and you should call out fatigued. If they MEL is legal and pax safety is not compromised (ie APU in the summer, etc), then stop being lazy and do your job.

 

[urflyingme?!]

Baloney. You guys are splitting hairs here. Guy refuses an Aircraft, last time I checked he was the PIC PILOT IN COMMAND. I've seen a guy who wouldn't do another trip without a BUG WASH. You know what happened? He got it. I've refused an aircraft for a seat cushion, and I'm an FO. We all complain about scheduling claiming "It's legal" and we know how weak that is. Just like the QRH operating in a vacuum. When we have more than one emergency it all goes out the door. Same here. Sure the MEL is legit, but pile on 5 other things and then the only person capable of determining if it is safe is the PIC. Not some suit in DFW.

 

[Speedtape]

Was the airplane certified w/o an autopilot?


NO autopilot--stay low where the air is thicker. It is much easier to hand fly in mid-20's.

 

[spudskier]

Why is DTW CP getting involved in IAD? Where's RP?

 

[dustrpilot]

Tired or not, the plane was a POS and needed some attention. That's reason enough right there. There was a perfectly good spare sitting there, swap into it and press on.
I don't know about too many other planes, but the CRJ MEL can have some serious gotchas with the right combinations of multiple deferrals. Its hard enough to keep up with them on a good day, much less the last leg after a trying day. Sounds as though this plane was a problem all day, so good on the crews for turning it down.

 

[bri5150]

An autopilot deferred, by itself, is no problem. In fact I'm a staunch advocate of being able to hand-fly the airplane (raw data if need be) in any configuration at any time.

But, here's that thing:

Accidents (and incidents) are usually caused by many links in the chain. These links are usually not significant risks by themselves, i.e., deferred autopilot/pack/apu, weather, long day, FNG, short runway, etc. Many of these links are inevitable, and we willingly take them on knowing they are part of the task at hand.

At some point, though, the known links eventually, add up to make an unsafe situation - especially when we consider the latent risks inherent in any flight. It is up to pilots to decide when there are already too many links in the equation and either remove some of the links, or cut the chain altogether.

Unfortunately, the type and number of links allowed is not spelled out in black and white. And, there is only ONE person on the planet who can make that call.

I was trying to formulate the perfect response to this thread, but now I don't have to. You couldn't have said it better. Right on. If this is the first leg after coming off a couple days off and the a/p is the only issue, let's go. If it is the last leg on day three flying through thunderstorms, no thanks.

Taking off with working equipment and having it fail enroute is different than taking off with equipment you know has failed. There is a 99.9% chance the a/p will be working when I land if I take off with it working. There is a 100% chance it will be broken when I land if I take off with it broken.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Why is DTW CP getting involved in IAD? Where's RP?

Because SH wanted blood and KH was the man to take it.

 

[kingairpilot]

I thought we were paid to FLY airplanes? If we can not do that job without an autopilot, we need to find a different profession.

If you are one of the guys/gals who are not confident enough in your abilities to hand fly, you should be looking for a different job!

Good for the CP for pulling them offline.

Wow, really? Go fly some real airplanes, in real weather, dealing with real people. This is not a macho bitchfest. It is a serious discussion that deals with SAFETY. If a pilot feels that SAFETY is being compromised, then it is up to that pilot to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

Remember, Just because you CAN does not mean that you SHOULD.

ka

ps, I am so glad that I was able to tunnel out of that place.

 

[crazy8]

Sounds like an adventure and welcome change from the same old, every flight is the same, let the A/P take us there, daily routine we get accustomed to.

You were weak to rufuse the aircraft.

I thought we were paid to FLY airplanes? If we can not do that job without an autopilot, we need to find a different profession.

If you are one of the guys/gals who are not confident enough in your abilities to hand fly, you should be looking for a different job!

Good for the CP for pulling them offline.

Pay no attention to the obvious trolling....this guy sounds like he has a few aliases on this forum.

 

[Simon Says]

Sounds like an adventure and welcome change from the same old, every flight is the same, let the A/P take us there, daily routine we get accustomed to.

You were weak to rufuse the aircraft.

Tell me why you think I was weak to refuse the aircraft and I will show you what the attitude profile of "machoism" and how that has lead to multiple aircraft disasters.

I have almost 15k hours and did not feel weak nor did I feel like less of a pilot. In fact, I don't think a whole lot of pilots have the ballz to refuse a perfectly legal flight based on safety. And I am sure you will agree that their is a difference between legal and safe. As PIC, I need to evaluate every situation for legallity, safety, and practicallity. All 3 have different definitions that I need to follow.

So, how was I weak to refuse a perfectly legal flight.