ASA DTW CP pulls IAD pilot offline for refusing aircraft

[aussieflyboy]

If you are so tired and can only think straight with an operable auto pilot, you shouldn't be flying. Period.

My god. I can't believe any responsible pilot would think otherwise. Good grief. What if ANYTHING went wrong on this flight?!?!

This HAS to be some sort of flaming trolling expedition...

What he/she said...

 

[Stifler's Mom]

I'm asking hypothetical questions to see what people think.

I think that if I am tired enough, and know my body well enough, that hand flying for two hours to HSV or BFE, may not be wise. By the time I arrive at my destination, I may not be alert enough, I should be able to refuse the ac for safety reasons.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Toss out the unable to think straight part from earlier.

 

[BoilerUP]

Hand-flying an entire flight is much more tiring than handflying the takeoff and landing and letting Otto do his thing for the other 80%. Given that so much of normal ops today are with the autopilot engaged, even the most alert airline pilot is going to have highly atrophied hand-flying skills across all segments of a flight.

Throw in a long day, late night, running behind, inclement weather, busy airspace, a body not used to that circadian rhythm, other factors not mentioned or a combination thereof and you've got a recipe for a lousy ride for the pax at best, ATC violation or incident at worst.

Mission-oriented machismo or not, a man's always gotta know his limitations...

 

[PBRstreetgang]

This has BH written all over it, he hates it when he thinks pilots are mutinying, like refusing a POS A/C. Hand flying a 200 for 2 hours at FL380 is fatiguing. If I was at the end of a long day, with many messes I wouldn't have gone either.

 

[asayankee]

This has BH written all over it, he hates it when he thinks pilots are mutinying, like refusing a POS A/C. Hand flying a 200 for 2 hours at FL380 is fatiguing. If I was at the end of a long day, with many messes I wouldn't have gone either.

Can't hand fly in RVSM....but I still get your point.

 

[SLUF4]

But if you're tired and relying on the autopilot you shouldn't be flying. What if the autopilot fails during the flight? That being said, this guy probably did the right thing.

 

[CheeseHead13]

The story went like this...

First captain refused the POS because no autopilot on a 2hr blocked leg to HSV (for a roundtrip). DTW chief pilot (C.H.) became heated and called the captain unprofessional for refusing the aircraft and pulled her offline. Then at 1:00am the next captain refused the POS (now besides the autopilot being deferred, the APU was deferred along with the fuel indications) because the flight was into LGA on the Korry 3 arrival with a pretty green FO. The flight was completed using the perfectly good airplane that was at the remote parking. Flight arrived in LGA around 2:30am.

Because of the DTW chief pilot's decision, it caused the flight to be severely delayed when all it took was to the 15 minute aircraft swap when that is actually what happened anyway after the captain was pulled offline. When it's all said and done, I think the DTW chief was the "unprofessional" one here.

 

[Medeco]

Yeah, cause the level of work load isnt increased with a deferred AP...

The pilot had better push back hard on this one and fight to be made whole regarding the suspension.

So many factors at play here.

BTW, the nose gear steering was deferrable too, are you being unprofessional when refusing to operate the aircraft then?

Who gets blamed when something goes wrong and the deferral was a contributing factor?

The CREW does.

 

[Clutch]

It's not C.H....It's K.H. and he sounds like a really neat guy.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

The APU and packs are dererable too, even in the summer. Who here is taking that plane?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I had a similar issue with a ATL CP back in 1999. Refused a E-120 because of no working radar. Area forecast showed TP in the vicinity. I refused the airplane with out a radar. This former CP freaked out, and then made me and him fly the trip. (Removed the FO to prove to me that it was not needed) Of course we got a new radar control panel and blasted off.
In the end the radar was needed, but the action desire for you to fly an airplane with a perfectly legal deferral was the same. Stand your ground, you do not have to sign the dispatch release. One thing I learned from this is, be tactful and forceful. Do not refuse a jet on a company radio freq, and call them on the phone.

If they want to have administrative action on a pilot, so be it, but you have a moral and legal obligation not just to the yourself, but to your passengers and FAR's. They will get over it, but if they do not the grievance and arbitration process are great at resolving these sort of things.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Can't hand fly in RVSM....but I still get your point.

Pre RVSM days, planes did fly all the way up there before...

 

[Clutch]

nevermind * wrong thread

 

[BigPappa]

This would be the reply to a forceful CP from Captain Less Grossman (played by Tom C.).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S96DVTtvXqY&feature=related

 

[DeucesWild]

I thought we were paid to FLY airplanes? If we can not do that job without an autopilot, we need to find a different profession.

If you are one of the guys/gals who are not confident enough in your abilities to hand fly, you should be looking for a different job!

Good for the CP for pulling them offline.

 

[BigPappa]

It's not C.H....It's K.H. and he sounds like a really neat guy.

Unless you're him, who the F... cares!
I do have to say that if you refuse for "no AP" only, that on its own it is a bit lame.....

 

[IBNAV8R]

An autopilot deferred, by itself, is no problem. In fact I'm a staunch advocate of being able to hand-fly the airplane (raw data if need be) in any configuration at any time.

But, here's that thing:

Accidents (and incidents) are usually caused by many links in the chain. These links are usually not significant risks by themselves, i.e., deferred autopilot/pack/apu, weather, long day, FNG, short runway, etc. Many of these links are inevitable, and we willingly take them on knowing they are part of the task at hand.

At some point, though, the known links eventually, add up to make an unsafe situation - especially when we consider the latent risks inherent in any flight. It is up to pilots to decide when there are already too many links in the equation and either remove some of the links, or cut the chain altogether.

Unfortunately, the type and number of links allowed is not spelled out in black and white. And, there is only ONE person on the planet who can make that call.

 

[IBNAV8R]

P.S. I've had dispatch and MX change their tune most ricky-tick when informed their was a fed in the jumpseat right behind me.

 

[goahead]

fuad m. Is one of the best chief pilots asa has had in a while. He should teach new guys what effective leadership is. They could learn a lot from him.

bahahahahahahaha