APA Pilots polled. No to age 60.

[Tejas-Jet]

Tejas: The result of the CAL heart attacks proved the system works...THE CURRENT SYSTEM! It also illustrates that it is perhaps strained.--->Maybe flying was just too much for those individuals. What kind of airplanes were they flying when this happened? If a pilot is feeling "strained" maybe he/she should quit/retire. I don't feel "strained" at all. I really have fun when I'm out flying...maybe thats the secret....enjoy what you do...or find something else.Hard for you to grasp because you're looking no further than your own interests.--->....and the interests of like-minded pilots.

Why don't YOU wright a "honest" letter to somebody?---->I already have. My 2 Senators and my Congressman are already firmly in favor of this age change. No need for anymore letters. Tell the them you have NOT lost a pension, have NOT been furloughed, --->They really don't care about that...we both know all they are going to do is contact the FAA if they need some additional information on this age issue..and although tens of thousands of pilots have retired before you, and tens of thousands will retire after you...YOU are more uniqely deservant than anybody else of a windfall! Tell them your so f-ing special they ought to feel lucky they represent you!--->Duuuude, relax....we aren't going to settle this on FI.com It's an FAA thing...it's an ICAO thing. The horse was let out of the barn when the ICAO and the US went along with letting this happen. You can't turn back the clock. The NPRM is coming soon....Then the rule will change....I just hope you are in a left seat by then ( see, I do care about you.)[/quote

 

[Freight Dog]

Tejas and fogey... you say it's safe. At your own airline, 3 separate incidents this year of pilots having heart attacks. Luckily they were in cruise flight. Imagine it being captain's leg on a visual approach and he croaks on short final and slumps over the controls.

Unfortunately, it'll take one of those and metal getting bent for the FAA to wake up and see that this is indeed about safety first and foremost.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Tejas and fogey... you say it's safe. At your own airline, 3 separate incidents this year of pilots having heart attacks.--->Didn't happen at "my house." It was somebody else. Luckily they were in cruise flight. Imagine it being captain's leg on a visual approach and he croaks on short final and slumps over the controls.

Unfortunately, it'll take one of those and metal getting bent for the FAA to wake up and see that this is indeed about safety first and foremost.--->Well...theres lots of guys over age 60 doing all kinds of flying....crop dusting...CFI's ...corporate....test flying....There should be a wealth of data on this sort of thing. Methinks that theres not an epidemic on this[/quote]

Tejas

 

[Tejas-Jet]

If you want to give money to the APA's PAC it is acalled CAPA-PAC. They are in with IPA, SWAPA, NPA and IBT...

I say more donations from ALPA guys to the APA's PAC...it would really be appreciated by all of us here at SWA.

Or was all that talk about donating to APA's PAC a few days ago nothing but FI bluster?

Tejas

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Tejas, glad your not going to be a captain for an additional five years. You must be afraid to upgrade.

With SWA promoting a fly till you die law and CAL promoting a new EU/US cabotage treaty the profession is disappearing everyday.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Tejas, glad your not going to be a captain for an additional five years. You must be afraid to upgrade.

With SWA promoting a fly till you die law and CAL promoting a new EU/US cabotage treaty the profession is disappearing everyday.

Well then...I would guess it's time for you to leave if it's getting that bad.

And...it's only fly till you die if you die before age 65....if you don't ...then it's not.

 

[Deuce130]

Call me cynical, but the age 60 rule is all about dollars and has nothing to do with safety. If the big money donors (ie, corporate types from the airlines) want the rule changed to age 65, then it will happen. I have no doubt that FDX, UPS, SWA, DL, UA, AA et al have looked at the bottom line and determined what would cost them the least and then went with it. Hired a few lobbyists, made a few political donations to the right politicos, done deal. Looks like raising the age to 65 is cheaper for them in the long run. As far as ALPA, the silence is easily explained - dues. 64 year old MD-11 Captain with 20 years on property at 1.9% dues a year or 34 year old F/O with 3 years on property at 1.9%? They'll get five more years of dues from the guys who've maxed out the pay scale. ALPA will side with the money, not the membership on this one.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

As far as ALPA, the silence is easily explained - dues. 64 year old MD-11 Captain with 20 years on property at 1.9% dues a year or 34 year old F/O with 3 years on property at 1.9%? They'll get five more years of dues from the guys who've maxed out the pay scale. ALPA will side with the money, not the membership on this one.

So America is for sale? And ALPA values the difference between the senior captain and the junior fo.

I would tend to agree with your assessment, however I hope its not the case. Because if it is ALPA is worthless and completely fails to stand up for the entire reason of its existence. ALPA is not about its bank accounts, ALPA is about pilots careers.

And after the last five years, its does appear ALPA is more concerned with itself than those it represents.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Well then...I would guess it's time for you to leave if it's getting that bad.

And...it's only fly till you die if you die before age 65....if you don't ...then it's not.

Tejas, I curious. How did you transition from a C195 to a B737? With 14,000 hours listed you have way to much time to be from the military.

If you are from the commuters or night frieght you must realize what life is like outside the little SWA bubble you live in today. And if you were from the type of flying 95% of us do you must know how bad life can be. Yet your current world view is that everyone has it just like SWA and therefore flying till 65 is desirable. So you are either very ignorant, stubborn, or selfish.

I would guess selfish with a complete disregard for anyone besides yourself. You tell your MESA buddies they have to work another five years because you want another five years.

If I did not get any of the above right I did nail your selfishness.

 

[airfogey]

ALPA's going to get their 1.96% from the same amount of people regardless of any age change. Personally I would not mind if every retiree between 60-65 that wanted to come back did. ALPA had 12000 members in 1978 and over 60000 today--most growth has come from expansion and more people flying. The industry has always been feast or famine--look at the history. Carriers hired off the street and taught people to fly in the mid 60's, there was virtually no growth and stagnation from 70-77. Many of the "legacy" carriers got unsustainable contracts during the late 90's, unfortuantely many of the pilots laid off from these carriers after 9-11 shouldn't have been there in the first place if theyhad had productive contracts prior to 9-11. Fortunately or unfortunately the SWA model is the future of aviation--I just wish that my carrier(not CAL by the way) would leave ALPA and get a union that represents our interests.

Airfogey

ps I'm quite a few years from 60 myself btw

 

[vetrider]

I would hazard a guess that APA and ALPA are both impotent in this process. APA is whizzing into the wind, and ALPA is in a reactionary mode.

Take ALPA for instance. They fought it till 1970(?) or so, nothing doing. In recent years they wanted to keep it, yet now it is on the way to changing. Prater all but says "yep, shes changing it, we better figure out how were gonna deal with it."

Now lets move to Blakey. In announcing the forthcoming NPRM, she parrots a few letters from the pro change crowd touting their vast experience and praises Al Haynes(deserved) to such an extent that she doesn't even acknowlege any of the other fine folks in that DC-10 cockpit at all. My take, she is doing what she thinks is right, and its obvious who's viewpoint she has taken.

All you guys that want waivers? Do your apaad blitzing and write your own letters. I think that will have more effect than any union out there. Marion is already on your side. The anti change and waiver folks can write too, but its obvious Marion isn't having any of that.

Airfogey, were you for AWAPA?

 

[airfogey]

I would hazard a guess that APA and ALPA are both impotent in this process. APA is whizzing into the wind, and ALPA is in a reactionary mode.

Take ALPA for instance. They fought it till 1970(?) or so, nothing doing. In recent years they wanted to keep it, yet now it is on the way to changing. Prater all but says "yep, shes changing it, we better figure out how were gonna deal with it."

Now lets move to Blakey. In announcing the forthcoming NPRM, she parrots a few letters from the pro change crowd touting their vast experience and praises Al Haynes(deserved) to such an extent that she doesn't even acknowlege any of the other fine folks in that DC-10 cockpit at all. My take, she is doing what she thinks is right, and its obvious who's viewpoint she has taken.

All you guys that want waivers? Do your apaad blitzing and write your own letters. I think that will have more effect than any union out there. Marion is already on your side. The anti change and waiver folks can write too, but its obvious Marion isn't having any of that.

Airfogey, were you for AWAPA?

Yes I was for AWAPA, and the more I see of ALPA, the more I wish we had created AWAPA.

Airfogey

 

[Flopgut]

Tejas: The result of the CAL heart attacks proved the system works...THE CURRENT SYSTEM! It also illustrates that it is perhaps strained.--->Maybe flying was just too much for those individuals. What kind of airplanes were they flying when this happened? If a pilot is feeling "strained" maybe he/she should quit/retire. I don't feel "strained" at all. I really have fun when I'm out flying...maybe thats the secret....enjoy what you do...or find something else.Hard for you to grasp because you're looking no further than your own interests.--->....and the interests of like-minded pilots.

Why don't YOU wright a "honest" letter to somebody?---->I already have. My 2 Senators and my Congressman are already firmly in favor of this age change. No need for anymore letters. Tell the them you have NOT lost a pension, have NOT been furloughed, --->They really don't care about that...we both know all they are going to do is contact the FAA if they need some additional information on this age issue..and although tens of thousands of pilots have retired before you, and tens of thousands will retire after you...YOU are more uniqely deservant than anybody else of a windfall! Tell them your so f-ing special they ought to feel lucky they represent you!--->Duuuude, relax....we aren't going to settle this on FI.com It's an FAA thing...it's an ICAO thing. The horse was let out of the barn when the ICAO and the US went along with letting this happen. You can't turn back the clock. The NPRM is coming soon....Then the rule will change....I just hope you are in a left seat by then ( see, I do care about you.)[/quote

Be careful speculating about these individuals who suffered heart attacks and their suitability to the job. CAL pilots went through he!! 25 years ago; The rest of the industry got the same in the last 6 years. Want to know what these latest work rule changes, paycuts, and industry churn will do to pilot? Look at a CAL pilot. And BTW; does it even occur to you that some of this equipment flies 14+ hour legs? You just going to dismiss the affects of this type of flying and the rule change? (I don't know why I'm even asking that!)

Just cause your stock ticker is LUV doesn't mean you're the only pilot group who loves doing this! Those CAL pilots love[d] it, and look at the wicked master they served all those years? X number of years service and a certain age should get a decent retirement that works for everybody. Simply working longer doesn't get any pilot to that point, so much as it in fact, PRECLUDES and DELAYS a larger number from getting to that point. YOU like it because it helps YOU, I don't like it and I don't care what seat I'm in. It might change, but continued inflexibilty on the part of pilots like myself is part of the process, so understand I'm not going to stop disageeing with you and argueing the merits [safety] of age 60 retirement.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

well said flopgut

 

[airfogey]

Does anybody remember that as of Nov 23, 2006 pilots working for foreign airlines, including Americans, are now able to fly into our skies while American pilots flying for American carriers cannot, so if you can get your unions and the FAA to keep our retirement at 60 then you'd better get them to deny foreign airlines this right--cause your gonna have the mother of all age discrimination lawsuits it they don't.
Also, I have seen research on American airlines accidents--in all of their accidents in their history the captain has been 53 yrs of age or younger--so I guess in the interest of safety, all captains at American should be 54 yrs old or older.

Airfogey

 

[FoxHunter]

Also, I have seen research on American airlines accidents--in all of their accidents in their history the captain has been 53 yrs of age or younger--so I guess in the interest of safety, all captains at American should be 54 yrs old or older.

Airfogey

Perhaps in the interest of safety APA would permit Direct Entry Captains selected from the recent age 60 forced retirements at all the ALPA carriers??

 

[Occam's Razor]

Does anybody remember that as of Nov 23, 2006 pilots working for foreign airlines, including Americans, are now able to fly into our skies while American pilots flying for American carriers cannot,

Does anyone remember that they undergo more stringent medical testing than our FAA requires of us?

...so if you can get your unions and the FAA to keep our retirement at 60 then you'd better get them to deny foreign airlines this right--cause your gonna have the mother of all age discrimination lawsuits it they don't.

Already had 'em!

Got your scorecard handy? Perhaps you can tell us how many the whiners have won?

 

[TWA Dude]

It pains me to say it, I wish ALPA was better, but if UAL had bought TWA, no TWA pilots would be flying for them.

So what you're saying is that an arbitrator (remember, that's what ALPA Merger Policy demands) would've awarded a staple job to TWA? On what precedent do you base that opinion on? We'll be hearing from our arbitrator by June but nobody expects that he'll staple all or for that matter any active US Airways pilots to the AWA list. And USAir in May 2005 was at least as bad off, if not more so, than TWA was in January 2001.

 

[hoover]

=“The FAA should consider the concerns of the men and women in the cockpits who have personally witnessed the impact of advancing age on their fellow pilots,” said APA President Captain Ralph Hunter. “APA strongly supports the current mandatory retirement age of 60 until the FAA can definitely establish that there will be no decrease in the current level of flight safety. Without this assurance, any change would be tantamount to conducting an experiment on the traveling public.”

A true professional doesn't need a regulation to do what is in the best interest of safety. If you think you are not as safe as you need to be, because of advancing age, or for any reason, it is incumbent on you to step out of the cockpit.

APA and ALPA say they are concerned about safety, but apparently only if they can hide behind a government regulation and not have to stick their necks out.

The justification for abolishing age 60 lies in the fact that the government should not be allowed to tell anyone when they have to stop working. As long as person is competent and capable, he should be allowed to keep working as long as he wants.

And on a side note, if it is true that age 60 is safer than age 65, then doesn't it logically follow that age 55 is safer than 60? How about age 50? If could just as easily go the other way. Something to think about.

 

[walkthasky]

What is so sad is that only 40 % of the F.O.'s voted...