I started this whole thing when I was 16 years old, I started flying professionally at the age of 18. I supported and paid for my college education by flight instructing. If I were at a position of being 33 and wanting to start a new career with a wife and a family and I had the cash, PFT is the only way to go. I can attest that until you get into the seat of a large airplane you will not make the kind of money you need to pay the bills. I don't mean the majors but any large aircraft. The big airplanes pay the bills. I made 60k flying Learjets and now with the 737-800 I get paid 88K per year with OT and a lot of hard work. I know this is just chicken feed for our major airlines friends but I am in the minor leagues and more than not I will stay here. I just don't have that much time left. I have flown a solid 500 hours per year since I started, so you guys can figure out my age. I agree with the previous post, if you don't have the time PFT is the way to go. If you do have the time to smell the roses and and get some great experience along the way, more power to you. The bottom line is getting to a job that you can pay the bills and give you one of the other pleasures in life-raising a family. There is nothing in the world like watching your high school son hit a home run.....nothing.
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Timebuilder
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Intersting, GIA.
NONE of the people who talked me out of going PFT were instructors. They were experienced aviators who ended up flying for majors after a host of experiences. No one paid for the priviledge.
Both military pilot trainees and medical residents are some of the most highly screened people on the planet. They are atypical, and that is why they are so successful. Both receive pay during this phase of their training.
As I have said, this board is a group of pilots who are sharing opinions and perspectives based on insight and experience. The more we can get together on the same page, the better off we will be in the long run. Keeping the new pilots informed about this topic helps to make it less prevalent.
As for age as a deciding factor: there is no one here who is as old as I am (of those who have posted) and I am not going to go PFT just because I have less time to burn than a 22 year old. I want to follow the advice I have been given because I value the source of the advice, not because I am working as an instructor.
NONE of the people who talked me out of going PFT were instructors. They were experienced aviators who ended up flying for majors after a host of experiences. No one paid for the priviledge.
Both military pilot trainees and medical residents are some of the most highly screened people on the planet. They are atypical, and that is why they are so successful. Both receive pay during this phase of their training.
As I have said, this board is a group of pilots who are sharing opinions and perspectives based on insight and experience. The more we can get together on the same page, the better off we will be in the long run. Keeping the new pilots informed about this topic helps to make it less prevalent.
As for age as a deciding factor: there is no one here who is as old as I am (of those who have posted) and I am not going to go PFT just because I have less time to burn than a 22 year old. I want to follow the advice I have been given because I value the source of the advice, not because I am working as an instructor.
Sppedmode
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I think I'm sorry I even started this thread...
The only thing I don't understand about PFT is the fact that it is faster for older guys to build time. I don't agree, I instructed 800 hours in 12 months had 1200 total and 200 multi in less than 18 months from getting my pvt.
The other thing is what you learn about yourself from instructing. Its one thing to get through a checkride or what not, but when you are responsible for teaching a pvt or intr. student, you really have to know your $hit. I learned more from instructing than I ever did getting all my ratings. You find out your limits in the airplane by letting the student control the a/c until it's time for you to take the controls. Lets face it, when you become a capt, f/o's are going to be looking to you to teach them something new.
When I go on 3-4 day trips with capts, I wait and ask them thier background on the second or third day. I can always tell who was an instructor, who was military, and who just built their time on there own or PFT. The pilot who instructed always ends up teaching me something new about the airplane or gives me tips on flying. All are usually very tactful and careful not to intimidate or put others down. Again, just an observation...
To me, PFT is just taking the easy way out...even if you have the money and are 30-40 years old. You will learn so much more if you instruct to get your hours and feel better about yourself
:
The only thing I don't understand about PFT is the fact that it is faster for older guys to build time. I don't agree, I instructed 800 hours in 12 months had 1200 total and 200 multi in less than 18 months from getting my pvt.
The other thing is what you learn about yourself from instructing. Its one thing to get through a checkride or what not, but when you are responsible for teaching a pvt or intr. student, you really have to know your $hit. I learned more from instructing than I ever did getting all my ratings. You find out your limits in the airplane by letting the student control the a/c until it's time for you to take the controls. Lets face it, when you become a capt, f/o's are going to be looking to you to teach them something new.
When I go on 3-4 day trips with capts, I wait and ask them thier background on the second or third day. I can always tell who was an instructor, who was military, and who just built their time on there own or PFT. The pilot who instructed always ends up teaching me something new about the airplane or gives me tips on flying. All are usually very tactful and careful not to intimidate or put others down. Again, just an observation...
To me, PFT is just taking the easy way out...even if you have the money and are 30-40 years old. You will learn so much more if you instruct to get your hours and feel better about yourself
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Freight Dog
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bobbysamd
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P-F-T for older people
As always, I read Pub's comments with interest. The fellow to whom he refers, at age 34, can still become qualified with having to resort to an "accelerated" program.
I was going on 38 when I got my first full-time aviation job. It was flight instructing at ERAU. I will say that going in I had 1340 hours and 51 of multi, so I was ahead of a lot of folks except for multi. Of course, it is multi PIC that matters. Within a year, I had over 2200 total and 270 of multi and my ATP. In those days, 1989, I was light in multi - and that was during a hiring boom and another alleged pilot shortage. Today, I might have had interviews with my 270 multi hours. A year and half later, my totals stood at 2650 and 565 multi. Most people needed 500 hours of multi in those days to be competitive - again, during a hiring boom and alleged pilot shortage. I actually turned down an interview with a commuter because I had signed a contract with Riddle. I interviewed with the same commuter later.
Get in with the right place and you can build time and go on to greener pastures.
I'm not saying that instructing is the only way to build time. Instructing is a time-honored, traditional, entry-level aviation job. If you can find real work doing other flying right out of flight training at 250 hours, more power to you. As a practical matter, instructing is about the only entry-level job available to most 250-hour pilots (MAPD notwithstanding).
Unless I don't understand how the medical profession works, although you are an M.D. upon graduation from medical school, you are still supervised closely as an intern and resident. You are not really practicing medicine. You are "practicing" medicine. And, you are paid.
As always, just more opinions.
As always, I read Pub's comments with interest. The fellow to whom he refers, at age 34, can still become qualified with having to resort to an "accelerated" program.
I was going on 38 when I got my first full-time aviation job. It was flight instructing at ERAU. I will say that going in I had 1340 hours and 51 of multi, so I was ahead of a lot of folks except for multi. Of course, it is multi PIC that matters. Within a year, I had over 2200 total and 270 of multi and my ATP. In those days, 1989, I was light in multi - and that was during a hiring boom and another alleged pilot shortage. Today, I might have had interviews with my 270 multi hours. A year and half later, my totals stood at 2650 and 565 multi. Most people needed 500 hours of multi in those days to be competitive - again, during a hiring boom and alleged pilot shortage. I actually turned down an interview with a commuter because I had signed a contract with Riddle. I interviewed with the same commuter later.
Get in with the right place and you can build time and go on to greener pastures.
I'm not saying that instructing is the only way to build time. Instructing is a time-honored, traditional, entry-level aviation job. If you can find real work doing other flying right out of flight training at 250 hours, more power to you. As a practical matter, instructing is about the only entry-level job available to most 250-hour pilots (MAPD notwithstanding).
Unless I don't understand how the medical profession works, although you are an M.D. upon graduation from medical school, you are still supervised closely as an intern and resident. You are not really practicing medicine. You are "practicing" medicine. And, you are paid.
As always, just more opinions.
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172driver
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The debate is hilarious but I keep coming back to the same thought. I'd sure hate for my little sister to be on board if something happened to the captain! What if something happened to the captain and the a/c? 250 hrs of flying shiny new airplanes doesn't expose the FO to much...lost comms, system failures, ice, t'storms, or even IMC for that matter.
Trained in South Florida too...what do these guys have...3-5 hrs of IMC time? Oh well, I guess hood time is the same thing, right?
I can just see the FO experiencing the leans for the first time with a load of passengers.
BTW...I don't see why Comair is grouped with GIA throughout this thread. Yes, the academy is owned by the airline but the CFI's there pay their dues the same as anywhere else... 152's in the middle of a hot, sticky FL summer for 1000+ hrs with no guarantee of a job at the end.
Trained in South Florida too...what do these guys have...3-5 hrs of IMC time? Oh well, I guess hood time is the same thing, right?
I can just see the FO experiencing the leans for the first time with a load of passengers.
BTW...I don't see why Comair is grouped with GIA throughout this thread. Yes, the academy is owned by the airline but the CFI's there pay their dues the same as anywhere else... 152's in the middle of a hot, sticky FL summer for 1000+ hrs with no guarantee of a job at the end.
bobbysamd
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Comair differentiation
Good point which should be made, again. Comair may be associated with the airline and does offer "the interview," but it is still just a large flight school. The certificates earned there can be marketed anywhere.
Same with MAPD, even though its training is very Mesa-specific. One would need a CFI or something to get a job if not hired by Mesa.
Good point which should be made, again. Comair may be associated with the airline and does offer "the interview," but it is still just a large flight school. The certificates earned there can be marketed anywhere.
Same with MAPD, even though its training is very Mesa-specific. One would need a CFI or something to get a job if not hired by Mesa.
BoredToDeath
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172driver wrote:
Many years ago Comair was the biggest PFTer of them all. Once you were hired I think it cost something like $12,000 to get the job. The only difference was that you got to keep the job after 250hrs unlike Gulfscum.
I felt for the instructors back then, they did work hard, but I belive they worked hard enough to not have had to shell out more of mom and dads money to be an airline pilot.
Many years ago Comair was the biggest PFTer of them all. Once you were hired I think it cost something like $12,000 to get the job. The only difference was that you got to keep the job after 250hrs unlike Gulfscum.
I felt for the instructors back then, they did work hard, but I belive they worked hard enough to not have had to shell out more of mom and dads money to be an airline pilot.
publisher
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Bobby,
Bobby,
My example is still valid... Right now, it may not be possible for someone with a newly minted CFI to get much work in the area that this fellow lives. That year and half or so you are talking about is one thing when you are single and have few responsiblities and another when you have a mortgage.
Your statement=== get in the right place-- may not be that easy for someone.
Furthermore, not all programs are really PFT. Tab Express offers an accelerated option which, whether you like it or not, is certainly not PFT.
I can see the argument on the GIA case, the paying for a job that would supposedly go to another paid pilot. That does not mean that there are not other programs like the Airnet program or TAB's that help you get there faster.
While instructing is certainly meritorius, the fact is that a whole bunch of people would have skipped that part if they could have.
Flying checks single pilot night IFR in a Beech Baron between CMH and CRW and CLT through the winter will get you sharp too. All without having to put up with a student.
Bobby,
My example is still valid... Right now, it may not be possible for someone with a newly minted CFI to get much work in the area that this fellow lives. That year and half or so you are talking about is one thing when you are single and have few responsiblities and another when you have a mortgage.
Your statement=== get in the right place-- may not be that easy for someone.
Furthermore, not all programs are really PFT. Tab Express offers an accelerated option which, whether you like it or not, is certainly not PFT.
I can see the argument on the GIA case, the paying for a job that would supposedly go to another paid pilot. That does not mean that there are not other programs like the Airnet program or TAB's that help you get there faster.
While instructing is certainly meritorius, the fact is that a whole bunch of people would have skipped that part if they could have.
Flying checks single pilot night IFR in a Beech Baron between CMH and CRW and CLT through the winter will get you sharp too. All without having to put up with a student.
172Driver:
This post is mostly for him, sorry guys.
" I'd sure hate for my little sister to be on board if something happened to the captain! What if something happened to the captain and the a/c? 250 hrs of flying shiny new airplanes doesn't expose the FO to much...lost comms, system failures, ice, t'storms, or even IMC for that matter.
Trained in South Florida too...what do these guys have...3-5 hrs of IMC time? Oh well, I guess hood time is the same thing, right?"
I just want to reply to that comment real quick: First the 1900s aren't new and shiny. Do they have problems, system failures? I experienced a couple minor ones while flying them just like there are with any airline. Did I experience ice, sure did, several times, even in good old florida. IMC? several times again, passengers even got sick due to a bad thunderstorm we had to fly through since it was too big to go around, get the radar set up, find a line between the stronger cells and work your way through. I know you only have 600 hours, and right now I only have a little more than 500 over you, does that make me a better pilot, who knows, but I think I have more experience in different situations then you. In a previous post on this subject, I said I was an instructor, did it for around 8 or 9 months, helped start up a flight school along with some training programs, went to gulfstream to get turbine time so I could go back to my old company and fly on a charter they were setting up with raytheon. Know what? After the sim training at gulfstream, they were talking about getting me type rated in the 1900 and do instructing since there weren't any permanent positions availabe due to 9-11. I must have done something right when they failed my engines, put them on fire, gave me the low oil pressure, electrical fire, had me fly through a level 5, failed both my engines and then failed my gear, in IMC, and still was able to follow the glide slope and put it down on the runway. I'm not trying to brag, I've had a lot of sim training in the past in T-37s, 727s, 757s, and 767s full motion sims.
To be honest, I don't care whether or not people agree or disagree with PFT. Someone in an earlier post told GIACapt I believe that he didn't have the right to try and change people's minds about PFT and Gulfstream, but isn't that what everyone else is trying to do on this board?? Just that they are trying to convince everyone that PFT is wrong, and GIACapt just happens to be in disagreement. Everyone has their own opinion. Do some major airline pilots dislike gulfstream? I would have to say probably quite a few, but I've met some who could care less, some who ask who are they, and some have even told me they hate it, but they don't hold anything against people who go there. Everyone has their reasons to go there, some better then others, but they do. If you get a position where you are able to hire someone, why not give them a shot, put them in a sim, test their abilities, if they took it as a fast route and still can't fly, I'm sure you'll be able to tell. But I think it is safe to say I think you would be surprised. We all went through the same checkrides the FAA mandates for any airline in any airplane. If they don't perform they aren't allowed to continue until they do. I know this for a fact for I saw it happen to someone.
Please finish up with the personal attacks because you do not know anything specific about the company except from what you have heard, you don't know what kind of conditions the guys fly through. I'm sure most of your time is spent in VFR weather since probably most is flight training, I did the same thing when I was an instructor so your IMC time might be down, but just like any airline, as in gulfstream, if there is a flight scheduled it leaves no matter what the weather is, unless the airport is closed. It makes for some fun and exciting flying. Good luck to you.
This post is mostly for him, sorry guys.
" I'd sure hate for my little sister to be on board if something happened to the captain! What if something happened to the captain and the a/c? 250 hrs of flying shiny new airplanes doesn't expose the FO to much...lost comms, system failures, ice, t'storms, or even IMC for that matter.
Trained in South Florida too...what do these guys have...3-5 hrs of IMC time? Oh well, I guess hood time is the same thing, right?"
I just want to reply to that comment real quick: First the 1900s aren't new and shiny. Do they have problems, system failures? I experienced a couple minor ones while flying them just like there are with any airline. Did I experience ice, sure did, several times, even in good old florida. IMC? several times again, passengers even got sick due to a bad thunderstorm we had to fly through since it was too big to go around, get the radar set up, find a line between the stronger cells and work your way through. I know you only have 600 hours, and right now I only have a little more than 500 over you, does that make me a better pilot, who knows, but I think I have more experience in different situations then you. In a previous post on this subject, I said I was an instructor, did it for around 8 or 9 months, helped start up a flight school along with some training programs, went to gulfstream to get turbine time so I could go back to my old company and fly on a charter they were setting up with raytheon. Know what? After the sim training at gulfstream, they were talking about getting me type rated in the 1900 and do instructing since there weren't any permanent positions availabe due to 9-11. I must have done something right when they failed my engines, put them on fire, gave me the low oil pressure, electrical fire, had me fly through a level 5, failed both my engines and then failed my gear, in IMC, and still was able to follow the glide slope and put it down on the runway. I'm not trying to brag, I've had a lot of sim training in the past in T-37s, 727s, 757s, and 767s full motion sims.
To be honest, I don't care whether or not people agree or disagree with PFT. Someone in an earlier post told GIACapt I believe that he didn't have the right to try and change people's minds about PFT and Gulfstream, but isn't that what everyone else is trying to do on this board?? Just that they are trying to convince everyone that PFT is wrong, and GIACapt just happens to be in disagreement. Everyone has their own opinion. Do some major airline pilots dislike gulfstream? I would have to say probably quite a few, but I've met some who could care less, some who ask who are they, and some have even told me they hate it, but they don't hold anything against people who go there. Everyone has their reasons to go there, some better then others, but they do. If you get a position where you are able to hire someone, why not give them a shot, put them in a sim, test their abilities, if they took it as a fast route and still can't fly, I'm sure you'll be able to tell. But I think it is safe to say I think you would be surprised. We all went through the same checkrides the FAA mandates for any airline in any airplane. If they don't perform they aren't allowed to continue until they do. I know this for a fact for I saw it happen to someone.
Please finish up with the personal attacks because you do not know anything specific about the company except from what you have heard, you don't know what kind of conditions the guys fly through. I'm sure most of your time is spent in VFR weather since probably most is flight training, I did the same thing when I was an instructor so your IMC time might be down, but just like any airline, as in gulfstream, if there is a flight scheduled it leaves no matter what the weather is, unless the airport is closed. It makes for some fun and exciting flying. Good luck to you.
172driver
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I think my post was directed at the FO with 250 hrs that I keep reading about in this thread. I have no problem with somebody who has some legit time in an airplane paying to build multi-turbine time...I would if I could. You have paid your dues--instructed, built some time, made some decisions, seen some things. The post was not an attack on you.
How well do those low time guys handle the emergencies you're talking about? I'm really not one to talk at 600 hrs but...simulation is a lot different than reality. Also, the ability of your low timers to pass an FAA checkride doesn't make me feel any more confident that they are safe pilots in daily ops. Especially if it took them more than one shot at the ride as you seem to imply happens...that's scary.
I have students who pass FAA rides all the time who I would not put my family with in an emergency situation. The checkride and subsequent license is a license to learn. Learning only takes place with time and time should not be built with unknowing passengers aboard IMO. Following your logic, you would feel that a freshly minted instrument pilot is safe to carry passengers in IMC because they passed a checkride in smooth VFR conditions under the hood?
IMO, at 250 hrs nobody is qualified to fly a 1900 with passengers on board, period. How much IMC time, decision making time, actual emergency experience do they have on day one of being a FO? Not ripping on you or GIA...just saying that I think pilots should build some time, as you did, before carrying passengers.
If not, maybe your company should inform the passengers that they're flying with FO's who have about 1/4 - 1/8 the experience of a normal 121 FO. Let them make an informed decision about their safety.
How well do those low time guys handle the emergencies you're talking about? I'm really not one to talk at 600 hrs but...simulation is a lot different than reality. Also, the ability of your low timers to pass an FAA checkride doesn't make me feel any more confident that they are safe pilots in daily ops. Especially if it took them more than one shot at the ride as you seem to imply happens...that's scary.
I have students who pass FAA rides all the time who I would not put my family with in an emergency situation. The checkride and subsequent license is a license to learn. Learning only takes place with time and time should not be built with unknowing passengers aboard IMO. Following your logic, you would feel that a freshly minted instrument pilot is safe to carry passengers in IMC because they passed a checkride in smooth VFR conditions under the hood?
IMO, at 250 hrs nobody is qualified to fly a 1900 with passengers on board, period. How much IMC time, decision making time, actual emergency experience do they have on day one of being a FO? Not ripping on you or GIA...just saying that I think pilots should build some time, as you did, before carrying passengers.
If not, maybe your company should inform the passengers that they're flying with FO's who have about 1/4 - 1/8 the experience of a normal 121 FO. Let them make an informed decision about their safety.
you have a very interesting mind and concept that nobody at 250 hours has no right to fly passengers, period" Kind of interesting since I have a couple friends who are in the air force flying fighters and a b-1 carrying missles and bombs and have not much more time then 250. They can kill a lot more people with their toys then a 1900 could. I only saw one person who had to have a little extra training, and I emphasize a little, one extra sim period to pass his ride in the 1900 sim. And let me state to you again, since I'm not sure if you read my previous post, we then have to pass a checkride in the airplane. So now you are having to pass two checkrides. But I'm sure that wouldn't matter to you since in your tone of your message it seems like you have passed every checkride you had. And also do you think the capt onboard only has 250hours? I know you don't but you seem to have forgotten that its a 2 man crew. The other opinions and posts on here were about PFT and I can see where they are coming from and some have legit complaints, but as far as what you are saying, I have to say you need to rethink your ideas.
Great Lakes has been known to hire low time FOs. They have never had a fatal accident that was their fault (Quincy is one I'm sure many crews remember). The last accident we had was the unbelievable gear up landing on 4R in ORD. Guess what...both pilots were fairly high time (FO was ex-military). Low time pilots are not accidents waiting to happen. They just have to work a lot harder. I have to agree with a lot of what Sharpeye posted. Flight instructing does not prepare you for the type of weather 121 flights are dispatched into. Only 121 style flying (including 135, corporate, etc..) can prepare you for picking your way through squall lines, landing with a couple of inches of ice on the plane, dealing with irate passengers, etc. I think the biggest thing flight instructing does is help you operate in a 2 pilot enviroment. That was truly the hardest part for me. On the accident note...how many crashes has Gulfstream had? I'm guessing not that many....if any at all.
3
350DRIVER
Actually I'm feeling fine, thanks for your concern hightimer. The comparison is easily made. Both are trained on the airplanes they are to fly. A well seasoned 250 hour AF pilot?? I don't think they are well seasoned when they get out of UPT (undergrad pilot training since I'm not sure you understand what that would mean). But yet, they are now soloing in a jet, with live ordinance. They were trained to do so. A GIA FO is trained to fly the plane he is on, the 1900. Do you know what type of training an AF pilot goes through? I doubt it, but just to let you know its really not all that different from regular airline training, they just do it all in different planes. When you realize its not how many hours someone has, but the quality of training, what the hours are in, what type of experience they have (such as weather) you will always have a misguided opinion on pilots. But till then, fly safe please.
3
350DRIVER
Glad you are feeling fine since your post would say otherwise-
You are comparing a "bought" job versus a "deserved" hard fought slot in the Air Force- funny how you used this comparison but at your TT I can understand your ignorance towards such a "comparison" as you put it so no worries regarding that aspect of the post- I never knew that you could compare AF training or any military training program for that matter against such a "bought" program as GIA is....
It is a true slap in the face towards any military pilot to put GIA and the AF in the same post as you did... It it quite humerous however that you "seem" to think the quality of training is the same since you are comparing the pilots at the 250TT mark to be "equal".... I think hell would have a better chance of freezing over before an AF pilot would "have" to buy his job-food for thought
As you put it-(I don't think they are well seasoned when they get out of UPT (undergrad pilot training since I'm not sure you understand what that would mean) ""- my stupidity then, guess they are just given or assigned multi-million dollar equipment to fly around without being "seasoned" pilots as you put it- guess its learn as you go huh....
But you did finally contradict yourself by mentioning "quality" of the training towards the end of your post- -enough said " . "
a "misguided" opinion huh?? I think as most can see its basically just a matter of "basic" common sense as well as logical reasoning-
coffee is best without additives for some-
You are comparing a "bought" job versus a "deserved" hard fought slot in the Air Force- funny how you used this comparison but at your TT I can understand your ignorance towards such a "comparison" as you put it so no worries regarding that aspect of the post- I never knew that you could compare AF training or any military training program for that matter against such a "bought" program as GIA is....
It is a true slap in the face towards any military pilot to put GIA and the AF in the same post as you did... It it quite humerous however that you "seem" to think the quality of training is the same since you are comparing the pilots at the 250TT mark to be "equal".... I think hell would have a better chance of freezing over before an AF pilot would "have" to buy his job-food for thought
As you put it-(I don't think they are well seasoned when they get out of UPT (undergrad pilot training since I'm not sure you understand what that would mean) ""- my stupidity then, guess they are just given or assigned multi-million dollar equipment to fly around without being "seasoned" pilots as you put it- guess its learn as you go huh....
But you did finally contradict yourself by mentioning "quality" of the training towards the end of your post- -enough said " . "
a "misguided" opinion huh?? I think as most can see its basically just a matter of "basic" common sense as well as logical reasoning-
coffee is best without additives for some-
3
350DRIVER
How many of the pilots who "donated" (for a better word) over $18,000 for the right seat did not make it to the line after training at GIA.?? I would say few to none washed out and I think it is a safe assumption to make that a "blank check" says alot more than the quality of "skills" of a 400TT wonder pilot who is now deemed to be a safe and competant pilot who can now safely carry your parents as well as mine on board the aircraft... I think its a great money maker though and one cannot argue that point..
you are the one thats typing in an uncalm unprofessional manner. I was in the air force and began pilot training, however, I left since the civilian side was a good market at the time, prior to 9-11, actually back in 98'; however, I still have several friends in the AF and know what they went through and what their training was like. And yes, it is very similar to regular airline training (as I said in my previous post and what I've gone through with GIA when I went through the program, whether PFT or not, and have also gone through training in the 767 and the 757). Are they seasoned pilots? I would say they are now, seeing how two are overseas in the fight against terrorism. Were they when they got right out of UPT? I'd say no, and they even admitted it to. That's the thing with some pilots, and you. You overestimate your abilities and what you have gone through. You are flying a kingair 350 according to your profile, but I bet I could give you a nice system's quiz on it and really see what you know. Getting your fresh private pilot certifcate you go through a lot different training then when you go to your first turboprop for a part 91 co. and then you go through another whole different type of training when you go through an airline ab initio training or 135 (some 135s I guess I should say, more of the ones who fly business jets). Flying is a never ending learning process. When I went through GIA program, again even though I paid to go through it, I worked my butt off to learn the systems along with every one else in that class, some who even have quite a few more hours then you (but they still aren't as smart as you though, now are they). Like I said in a previous post, you become more experienced by how much you fly and what conditions you fly in (they go hand in hand) Do you learn as much flying on nice sunny calm days or more when you are trying to pick your way around thunderstorms? Just as you are with a part 91 co. (I'm guessing) you have the option of whether or not you want to make the trip depending on the weather. At GIA or even where I'm flying now, we don't have that option. If you can get off the ground (basically if the airport is open) you are flying. If there is a storm off the departure end, well you better turn the radar on before you push the throttles up and find the best way through it. You gain more valuable experience flying for a 121 then you do instructing or a 91 co like what you are probably with. Would I fly on GIA? Yes I would, I was able to see probably the majority of the pilots fly and have no problem or fears flying them. I believe they know their systems and how to fly the aircraft. From what I see on your profile of 1400 I bet you are more within about 100-200hours of me since I haven't even added a lot of training that I've done (in the air force) but I'm fine with that because I'm flying what I want to now. You need to relax some and really think about what you say before you say it. I've read several of your other posts and they all seem to be written while you are upset. If you want to mature as a pilot and a person you need to learn how to have a reasonable discussion without getting your temper up or your feelings hurt.
JIM
Just wanted to say thank you for your post and thought it was really good. And I do want to say to you and 350Driver, I don't think I was making myself clear as far as a comparison for an AF pilot and a GIA pilot. I thought I was trying to but guess I didn't good enough. When I say the training is comparible I believe it is. In the AF they start out in T-37s, small light twins, two seater (side by side). they then go into T-38s small supersonic aircraft. After UPT they then go to the jet they bid on, depending on how up they finished in their class. They are heavily trained on the aircraft they are assigned to. Just like an GIA FO is heavily trained on the 1900 going through every possible emergency (and there isn't a capt in the sim, just the two FO beginners and they have to do the right immediate action items) They also have to do all the captain runups and anything else the capt would do. So actually they know everything about the airplane as would a capt on it. Do you they have the experience to make a decision in an emergency? Who knows, I think it defers with each one, but then again you have the experienced capt sitting next to them, and if not, just like what JIM said, they would most likely land at the nearest airport, and in these days, that probably wouldn't be to far away and they are very capable of doing that. Would I stick a GIA FO in a fighter? hell no, he wasn't trained on it. Would I stick an AF pilot in a 1900? no again, again he wasn't trained on it. I honestly wish there was a way for people like 350Driver to see the training process of a GIA FO and maybe some people would realize the guys and gals going through the program work hard, just because they pay doesn't guarentee a pass. I've seen otherwise. When you for over $18,000 whether it's mommy and daddy's or yours, it's not something you take too lightly and you want to do good so the students wanting to study and do their best isn't a problem.
Just wanted to say thank you for your post and thought it was really good. And I do want to say to you and 350Driver, I don't think I was making myself clear as far as a comparison for an AF pilot and a GIA pilot. I thought I was trying to but guess I didn't good enough. When I say the training is comparible I believe it is. In the AF they start out in T-37s, small light twins, two seater (side by side). they then go into T-38s small supersonic aircraft. After UPT they then go to the jet they bid on, depending on how up they finished in their class. They are heavily trained on the aircraft they are assigned to. Just like an GIA FO is heavily trained on the 1900 going through every possible emergency (and there isn't a capt in the sim, just the two FO beginners and they have to do the right immediate action items) They also have to do all the captain runups and anything else the capt would do. So actually they know everything about the airplane as would a capt on it. Do you they have the experience to make a decision in an emergency? Who knows, I think it defers with each one, but then again you have the experienced capt sitting next to them, and if not, just like what JIM said, they would most likely land at the nearest airport, and in these days, that probably wouldn't be to far away and they are very capable of doing that. Would I stick a GIA FO in a fighter? hell no, he wasn't trained on it. Would I stick an AF pilot in a 1900? no again, again he wasn't trained on it. I honestly wish there was a way for people like 350Driver to see the training process of a GIA FO and maybe some people would realize the guys and gals going through the program work hard, just because they pay doesn't guarentee a pass. I've seen otherwise. When you for over $18,000 whether it's mommy and daddy's or yours, it's not something you take too lightly and you want to do good so the students wanting to study and do their best isn't a problem.
3
350DRIVER
Sharpeye-
It is just my "opinion"- nothing more, nothing less...- some will agree and others will disagree. All that is posted, debated, and voiced here on this board should not be taken personally and I think for the most of the posts they are taken at "face value"...
I see where you are coming from and I can respect that however it is a difference of opinions, once again nothing more and nothing less...
Having said that I think that this is a great debate and for the most part the people against PFT (me being one of them) has kept all composure and why am I "upset" as you put it while I am responding.?- sit back relax and enjoy the debate!- If you are happy with your choices then great!
cheers
It is just my "opinion"- nothing more, nothing less...- some will agree and others will disagree. All that is posted, debated, and voiced here on this board should not be taken personally and I think for the most of the posts they are taken at "face value"...
I see where you are coming from and I can respect that however it is a difference of opinions, once again nothing more and nothing less...
Having said that I think that this is a great debate and for the most part the people against PFT (me being one of them) has kept all composure and why am I "upset" as you put it while I am responding.?- sit back relax and enjoy the debate!- If you are happy with your choices then great!
cheers
Checks
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2001
- Posts
- 447
I think everyone should PFT to "get ahead". You want to make CPT at Gulfstream? PFT. You want a job at the majors? PFT.
When I was a flight instructor I knew a few guys who flight instructed for free. Do you think that helped the flight instructing pay scale? NO! But after reading this thread I am convinced they were correct in working for free. Hey, they have to build hours like everyone else to "get ahead". Actually I think everyone should PFT for every job in aviation. It is a fun job and is way cool so if you REALLY want to "get ahead" then PFT is the way to go. Every employer should demand that of their pilots. If PFT was in place at EVERY airline then we all could "get ahead" I think I will suggest it to my employer.
You guys where right. Sorry it took me so long to see the light.
PFT for all pilot jobs!
When I was a flight instructor I knew a few guys who flight instructed for free. Do you think that helped the flight instructing pay scale? NO! But after reading this thread I am convinced they were correct in working for free. Hey, they have to build hours like everyone else to "get ahead". Actually I think everyone should PFT for every job in aviation. It is a fun job and is way cool so if you REALLY want to "get ahead" then PFT is the way to go. Every employer should demand that of their pilots. If PFT was in place at EVERY airline then we all could "get ahead" I think I will suggest it to my employer.
You guys where right. Sorry it took me so long to see the light.
PFT for all pilot jobs!
Timebuilder
Entrepreneur
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 4,625
Interesting post, Jim.
That captain who put the guy off his plane finally had an opportunity to get back at all those guys at the airline who had given him a piece of their minds about PFT over the years. With his FO, he finally has someone to talk to
. The jumper's better move WOULD have been to listen more, and talk less. If he had sat down on the jumpseat and started to bash Christians, he might have found a pilot who had flown for Mission Aviation Fellowship. Discretion is the better part of valor.
Military aviators start out as a group who have been screened out of the ranks to a standard that reduces the amout of "wasted" money spent on washouts every year. If you start with anunusual, high quality individual, you will have much greater quality in an aviator at 250 hours. I don't think an accurate comparison can be made to the FAA checkride requirements as an equivalency. The fact remains, the aviator's training was paid by you and I, and for a specific purpose. He hauls no paying passengers who are expecting a pair of pilots up front.
In general-
Consider this: granted, everyone has a right to make their own chioces in life, both good and bad. That said, when you go PFT with Gulf you are aiding and abetting an operator who is not acting in the best interests of aviation. If more pilots refused to sign up for this company and those like it, the operators would have no chioce but to change their business model and actually pay a pilot for his professional services, and to train that individual as a part of the cost of doing business as an airline. Is this starting to sound familiar? Yes, it's the basis of collective bargaining. If more pilots stand together on this, as opposed to exercising their singular self-interest, the PFT will go away like the dodo.
Forums like this are where the awareness starts. Ever see that movie from about 25 years ago called "Norma Rae"? Sally Field held up that sign that said "strike" and one by one those machinces were shut down, leading to a silence that was heard across the garment industry.
If we refuse to participate, and teach others about PFT, then we can change the way Gulfstream does business, if only a little at a time. It means putting aside what might be perceived as being good for you, but it can lead to changes that help to make aviation a profession, and not just a job that can be purchased.
End of speech.
That captain who put the guy off his plane finally had an opportunity to get back at all those guys at the airline who had given him a piece of their minds about PFT over the years. With his FO, he finally has someone to talk to
. The jumper's better move WOULD have been to listen more, and talk less. If he had sat down on the jumpseat and started to bash Christians, he might have found a pilot who had flown for Mission Aviation Fellowship. Discretion is the better part of valor.Military aviators start out as a group who have been screened out of the ranks to a standard that reduces the amout of "wasted" money spent on washouts every year. If you start with anunusual, high quality individual, you will have much greater quality in an aviator at 250 hours. I don't think an accurate comparison can be made to the FAA checkride requirements as an equivalency. The fact remains, the aviator's training was paid by you and I, and for a specific purpose. He hauls no paying passengers who are expecting a pair of pilots up front.
In general-
Consider this: granted, everyone has a right to make their own chioces in life, both good and bad. That said, when you go PFT with Gulf you are aiding and abetting an operator who is not acting in the best interests of aviation. If more pilots refused to sign up for this company and those like it, the operators would have no chioce but to change their business model and actually pay a pilot for his professional services, and to train that individual as a part of the cost of doing business as an airline. Is this starting to sound familiar? Yes, it's the basis of collective bargaining. If more pilots stand together on this, as opposed to exercising their singular self-interest, the PFT will go away like the dodo.
Forums like this are where the awareness starts. Ever see that movie from about 25 years ago called "Norma Rae"? Sally Field held up that sign that said "strike" and one by one those machinces were shut down, leading to a silence that was heard across the garment industry.
If we refuse to participate, and teach others about PFT, then we can change the way Gulfstream does business, if only a little at a time. It means putting aside what might be perceived as being good for you, but it can lead to changes that help to make aviation a profession, and not just a job that can be purchased.
End of speech.
B-J-J Fighter
Royce Gracie in Action
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2001
- Posts
- 1,118
I'm interested in this question:
Pilot A: cfi with 800 dual given/ 150 multi
Pilot B: 800 hours tt/ 500 in a beech 1900
Who would you rather be the pilot of your 1900, king air, etc. after 800 hrs tt?
My problem with instructing is that the instructor doesn't even get to fly. It is very true that it is a tough job that cultivates leadership and skill level, but I can't seem to get around the fact that for the next 800 hours I'll get to touch the yoke 5% of the time.
Another question that is probably a deciding factor for quite a few people is whether you value flying a better plane or making more $ your first year.
Pilot A: cfi with 800 dual given/ 150 multi
Pilot B: 800 hours tt/ 500 in a beech 1900
Who would you rather be the pilot of your 1900, king air, etc. after 800 hrs tt?
My problem with instructing is that the instructor doesn't even get to fly. It is very true that it is a tough job that cultivates leadership and skill level, but I can't seem to get around the fact that for the next 800 hours I'll get to touch the yoke 5% of the time.
Another question that is probably a deciding factor for quite a few people is whether you value flying a better plane or making more $ your first year.
Timebuilder
Entrepreneur
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 4,625
Let see, I'll ask another question. You'd like to marry a woman who will be a satisfying mate. You marry:
A) a woman who is bright, attactive, and blushes when she says she is really looking forward to your honeymoon.
B) a woman who knew 1000 men from the age of 17 while working at the Chicken Ranch in Nevada.
One has more experience on the equipment.
The other has more inner strength and character.
Who would you marry?
Just thought I might inject some levity.
If you are the operator, it's your responsibility to provide the advaced training for your hirees. I'd want to provide the training for the spouse, too.
A) a woman who is bright, attactive, and blushes when she says she is really looking forward to your honeymoon.
B) a woman who knew 1000 men from the age of 17 while working at the Chicken Ranch in Nevada.
One has more experience on the equipment.
The other has more inner strength and character.
Who would you marry?
Just thought I might inject some levity.
If you are the operator, it's your responsibility to provide the advaced training for your hirees. I'd want to provide the training for the spouse, too.
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