Anyone fly for Gulfstream out there?

[172driver]

I think my post was directed at the FO with 250 hrs that I keep reading about in this thread. I have no problem with somebody who has some legit time in an airplane paying to build multi-turbine time...I would if I could. You have paid your dues--instructed, built some time, made some decisions, seen some things. The post was not an attack on you.

How well do those low time guys handle the emergencies you're talking about? I'm really not one to talk at 600 hrs but...simulation is a lot different than reality. Also, the ability of your low timers to pass an FAA checkride doesn't make me feel any more confident that they are safe pilots in daily ops. Especially if it took them more than one shot at the ride as you seem to imply happens...that's scary.

I have students who pass FAA rides all the time who I would not put my family with in an emergency situation. The checkride and subsequent license is a license to learn. Learning only takes place with time and time should not be built with unknowing passengers aboard IMO. Following your logic, you would feel that a freshly minted instrument pilot is safe to carry passengers in IMC because they passed a checkride in smooth VFR conditions under the hood?

IMO, at 250 hrs nobody is qualified to fly a 1900 with passengers on board, period. How much IMC time, decision making time, actual emergency experience do they have on day one of being a FO? Not ripping on you or GIA...just saying that I think pilots should build some time, as you did, before carrying passengers.

If not, maybe your company should inform the passengers that they're flying with FO's who have about 1/4 - 1/8 the experience of a normal 121 FO. Let them make an informed decision about their safety.

 

[sharpeye]

you have a very interesting mind and concept that nobody at 250 hours has no right to fly passengers, period" Kind of interesting since I have a couple friends who are in the air force flying fighters and a b-1 carrying missles and bombs and have not much more time then 250. They can kill a lot more people with their toys then a 1900 could. I only saw one person who had to have a little extra training, and I emphasize a little, one extra sim period to pass his ride in the 1900 sim. And let me state to you again, since I'm not sure if you read my previous post, we then have to pass a checkride in the airplane. So now you are having to pass two checkrides. But I'm sure that wouldn't matter to you since in your tone of your message it seems like you have passed every checkride you had. And also do you think the capt onboard only has 250hours? I know you don't but you seem to have forgotten that its a 2 man crew. The other opinions and posts on here were about PFT and I can see where they are coming from and some have legit complaints, but as far as what you are saying, I have to say you need to rethink your ideas.

 

[AWACoff]

Great Lakes has been known to hire low time FOs. They have never had a fatal accident that was their fault (Quincy is one I'm sure many crews remember). The last accident we had was the unbelievable gear up landing on 4R in ORD. Guess what...both pilots were fairly high time (FO was ex-military). Low time pilots are not accidents waiting to happen. They just have to work a lot harder. I have to agree with a lot of what Sharpeye posted. Flight instructing does not prepare you for the type of weather 121 flights are dispatched into. Only 121 style flying (including 135, corporate, etc..) can prepare you for picking your way through squall lines, landing with a couple of inches of ice on the plane, dealing with irate passengers, etc. I think the biggest thing flight instructing does is help you operate in a 2 pilot enviroment. That was truly the hardest part for me. On the accident note...how many crashes has Gulfstream had? I'm guessing not that many....if any at all.

 

[sharpeye]

Gulfstream has yet to have one accident, an incident yes (taxiing and clipping a wingtip, by a high time capt I might add) but not an accident.

 

[flydog]

I think the Air Force provides much better training than Gulfstream does. I dont think you can compare a 250 hr GIA FO to a 250 hr F-16 pilot.

 

[350DRIVER]

How in the world are you comparing a well seasoned, highly trained and "PROVEN" 250 hour Air Force pilot to a 250 hour GIA pilot?

Are you feeling alright.??
That has to be one of the funniest posts I think I have ever read on a message board anywhere let alone an "aviation" one-

cheers

 

[sharpeye]

Actually I'm feeling fine, thanks for your concern hightimer. The comparison is easily made. Both are trained on the airplanes they are to fly. A well seasoned 250 hour AF pilot?? I don't think they are well seasoned when they get out of UPT (undergrad pilot training since I'm not sure you understand what that would mean). But yet, they are now soloing in a jet, with live ordinance. They were trained to do so. A GIA FO is trained to fly the plane he is on, the 1900. Do you know what type of training an AF pilot goes through? I doubt it, but just to let you know its really not all that different from regular airline training, they just do it all in different planes. When you realize its not how many hours someone has, but the quality of training, what the hours are in, what type of experience they have (such as weather) you will always have a misguided opinion on pilots. But till then, fly safe please.

 

[350DRIVER]

Glad you are feeling fine since your post would say otherwise-
You are comparing a "bought" job versus a "deserved" hard fought slot in the Air Force- funny how you used this comparison but at your TT I can understand your ignorance towards such a "comparison" as you put it so no worries regarding that aspect of the post- I never knew that you could compare AF training or any military training program for that matter against such a "bought" program as GIA is....

It is a true slap in the face towards any military pilot to put GIA and the AF in the same post as you did... It it quite humerous however that you "seem" to think the quality of training is the same since you are comparing the pilots at the 250TT mark to be "equal".... I think hell would have a better chance of freezing over before an AF pilot would "have" to buy his job-food for thought

As you put it-(I don't think they are well seasoned when they get out of UPT (undergrad pilot training since I'm not sure you understand what that would mean) ""- my stupidity then, guess they are just given or assigned multi-million dollar equipment to fly around without being "seasoned" pilots as you put it- guess its learn as you go huh....

But you did finally contradict yourself by mentioning "quality" of the training towards the end of your post- -enough said " . "

a "misguided" opinion huh?? I think as most can see its basically just a matter of "basic" common sense as well as logical reasoning-

coffee is best without additives for some-

 

[350DRIVER]

How many of the pilots who "donated" (for a better word) over $18,000 for the right seat did not make it to the line after training at GIA.?? I would say few to none washed out and I think it is a safe assumption to make that a "blank check" says alot more than the quality of "skills" of a 400TT wonder pilot who is now deemed to be a safe and competant pilot who can now safely carry your parents as well as mine on board the aircraft... I think its a great money maker though and one cannot argue that point..

 

[sharpeye]

you are the one thats typing in an uncalm unprofessional manner. I was in the air force and began pilot training, however, I left since the civilian side was a good market at the time, prior to 9-11, actually back in 98'; however, I still have several friends in the AF and know what they went through and what their training was like. And yes, it is very similar to regular airline training (as I said in my previous post and what I've gone through with GIA when I went through the program, whether PFT or not, and have also gone through training in the 767 and the 757). Are they seasoned pilots? I would say they are now, seeing how two are overseas in the fight against terrorism. Were they when they got right out of UPT? I'd say no, and they even admitted it to. That's the thing with some pilots, and you. You overestimate your abilities and what you have gone through. You are flying a kingair 350 according to your profile, but I bet I could give you a nice system's quiz on it and really see what you know. Getting your fresh private pilot certifcate you go through a lot different training then when you go to your first turboprop for a part 91 co. and then you go through another whole different type of training when you go through an airline ab initio training or 135 (some 135s I guess I should say, more of the ones who fly business jets). Flying is a never ending learning process. When I went through GIA program, again even though I paid to go through it, I worked my butt off to learn the systems along with every one else in that class, some who even have quite a few more hours then you (but they still aren't as smart as you though, now are they). Like I said in a previous post, you become more experienced by how much you fly and what conditions you fly in (they go hand in hand) Do you learn as much flying on nice sunny calm days or more when you are trying to pick your way around thunderstorms? Just as you are with a part 91 co. (I'm guessing) you have the option of whether or not you want to make the trip depending on the weather. At GIA or even where I'm flying now, we don't have that option. If you can get off the ground (basically if the airport is open) you are flying. If there is a storm off the departure end, well you better turn the radar on before you push the throttles up and find the best way through it. You gain more valuable experience flying for a 121 then you do instructing or a 91 co like what you are probably with. Would I fly on GIA? Yes I would, I was able to see probably the majority of the pilots fly and have no problem or fears flying them. I believe they know their systems and how to fly the aircraft. From what I see on your profile of 1400 I bet you are more within about 100-200hours of me since I haven't even added a lot of training that I've done (in the air force) but I'm fine with that because I'm flying what I want to now. You need to relax some and really think about what you say before you say it. I've read several of your other posts and they all seem to be written while you are upset. If you want to mature as a pilot and a person you need to learn how to have a reasonable discussion without getting your temper up or your feelings hurt.

 

[sharpeye]

JIM
Just wanted to say thank you for your post and thought it was really good. And I do want to say to you and 350Driver, I don't think I was making myself clear as far as a comparison for an AF pilot and a GIA pilot. I thought I was trying to but guess I didn't good enough. When I say the training is comparible I believe it is. In the AF they start out in T-37s, small light twins, two seater (side by side). they then go into T-38s small supersonic aircraft. After UPT they then go to the jet they bid on, depending on how up they finished in their class. They are heavily trained on the aircraft they are assigned to. Just like an GIA FO is heavily trained on the 1900 going through every possible emergency (and there isn't a capt in the sim, just the two FO beginners and they have to do the right immediate action items) They also have to do all the captain runups and anything else the capt would do. So actually they know everything about the airplane as would a capt on it. Do you they have the experience to make a decision in an emergency? Who knows, I think it defers with each one, but then again you have the experienced capt sitting next to them, and if not, just like what JIM said, they would most likely land at the nearest airport, and in these days, that probably wouldn't be to far away and they are very capable of doing that. Would I stick a GIA FO in a fighter? hell no, he wasn't trained on it. Would I stick an AF pilot in a 1900? no again, again he wasn't trained on it. I honestly wish there was a way for people like 350Driver to see the training process of a GIA FO and maybe some people would realize the guys and gals going through the program work hard, just because they pay doesn't guarentee a pass. I've seen otherwise. When you for over $18,000 whether it's mommy and daddy's or yours, it's not something you take too lightly and you want to do good so the students wanting to study and do their best isn't a problem.

 

[350DRIVER]

Sharpeye-
It is just my "opinion"- nothing more, nothing less...- some will agree and others will disagree. All that is posted, debated, and voiced here on this board should not be taken personally and I think for the most of the posts they are taken at "face value"...
I see where you are coming from and I can respect that however it is a difference of opinions, once again nothing more and nothing less...

Having said that I think that this is a great debate and for the most part the people against PFT (me being one of them) has kept all composure and why am I "upset" as you put it while I am responding.?- sit back relax and enjoy the debate!- If you are happy with your choices then great!

cheers

 

[172driver]

I'm out of this one but just wanted to say amen about the pattern work at DED. That place is a death trap!

 

[Checks]

I think everyone should PFT to "get ahead". You want to make CPT at Gulfstream? PFT. You want a job at the majors? PFT.

When I was a flight instructor I knew a few guys who flight instructed for free. Do you think that helped the flight instructing pay scale? NO! But after reading this thread I am convinced they were correct in working for free. Hey, they have to build hours like everyone else to "get ahead". Actually I think everyone should PFT for every job in aviation. It is a fun job and is way cool so if you REALLY want to "get ahead" then PFT is the way to go. Every employer should demand that of their pilots. If PFT was in place at EVERY airline then we all could "get ahead" I think I will suggest it to my employer.

You guys where right. Sorry it took me so long to see the light.

PFT for all pilot jobs!

 

[172driver]

Is this guy kidding or just rich? Why don't you pay for some of our training too if your $$ is burning a hole in your pocket?

 

[Timebuilder]

Interesting post, Jim.

That captain who put the guy off his plane finally had an opportunity to get back at all those guys at the airline who had given him a piece of their minds about PFT over the years. With his FO, he finally has someone to talk to . The jumper's better move WOULD have been to listen more, and talk less. If he had sat down on the jumpseat and started to bash Christians, he might have found a pilot who had flown for Mission Aviation Fellowship. Discretion is the better part of valor.

Military aviators start out as a group who have been screened out of the ranks to a standard that reduces the amout of "wasted" money spent on washouts every year. If you start with anunusual, high quality individual, you will have much greater quality in an aviator at 250 hours. I don't think an accurate comparison can be made to the FAA checkride requirements as an equivalency. The fact remains, the aviator's training was paid by you and I, and for a specific purpose. He hauls no paying passengers who are expecting a pair of pilots up front.

In general-

Consider this: granted, everyone has a right to make their own chioces in life, both good and bad. That said, when you go PFT with Gulf you are aiding and abetting an operator who is not acting in the best interests of aviation. If more pilots refused to sign up for this company and those like it, the operators would have no chioce but to change their business model and actually pay a pilot for his professional services, and to train that individual as a part of the cost of doing business as an airline. Is this starting to sound familiar? Yes, it's the basis of collective bargaining. If more pilots stand together on this, as opposed to exercising their singular self-interest, the PFT will go away like the dodo.

Forums like this are where the awareness starts. Ever see that movie from about 25 years ago called "Norma Rae"? Sally Field held up that sign that said "strike" and one by one those machinces were shut down, leading to a silence that was heard across the garment industry.

If we refuse to participate, and teach others about PFT, then we can change the way Gulfstream does business, if only a little at a time. It means putting aside what might be perceived as being good for you, but it can lead to changes that help to make aviation a profession, and not just a job that can be purchased.

End of speech.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

This Thread

350DRIVER and Others who keep responding:

You guys need to worry about more important things in life like getting laid, rather than who PFTed and who didn't. Im telling you it will make you sleep better at night.

 

[lancair1]

I'm interested in this question:

Pilot A: cfi with 800 dual given/ 150 multi

Pilot B: 800 hours tt/ 500 in a beech 1900


Who would you rather be the pilot of your 1900, king air, etc. after 800 hrs tt?

My problem with instructing is that the instructor doesn't even get to fly. It is very true that it is a tough job that cultivates leadership and skill level, but I can't seem to get around the fact that for the next 800 hours I'll get to touch the yoke 5% of the time.

Another question that is probably a deciding factor for quite a few people is whether you value flying a better plane or making more $ your first year.

 

[Checks]

Interesting but immaterial question. Of course flying a B1900 in 121 ops is better than flight instructing. The only problem is the PFT or PFW(Pay for Work) part of the equation. It erodes everyones pay scale.

 

[Timebuilder]

Let see, I'll ask another question. You'd like to marry a woman who will be a satisfying mate. You marry:

A) a woman who is bright, attactive, and blushes when she says she is really looking forward to your honeymoon.

B) a woman who knew 1000 men from the age of 17 while working at the Chicken Ranch in Nevada.

One has more experience on the equipment.

The other has more inner strength and character.

Who would you marry?



Just thought I might inject some levity.



If you are the operator, it's your responsibility to provide the advaced training for your hirees. I'd want to provide the training for the spouse, too.