Anyone fly for Gulfstream out there?

[Rook]

Oh by the way...


Whoever flamed Checks for having rotor wing time needs to take a deep breath and get over themselves. I wish I had time in an Apache not to mention this guy did graduate from a demanding military flight training program. Props to you checks.

Rook

600' AGL Autopilot on.

'WHEW!'

 

[EZTarget]

Flame Away

I just recently found this website and since then I have spent alot of time reading the threads. You ladies and gents post some really interesting and entertaining info. Then I came across this thread. At first I thought it was laughable. Five pages (and just as many beers) later, I couldn't believe what I was reading.

I know more of our guys surf this site, but I see GIACAPT is the only one to reply. I also noticed that he/she has kept their cool and not resorted to the slandering that many of the other repliers have. So I grabbed another beer, registered (with a name that even the feeblest of minds will be able to attack), and now I'm jumping into the lion's den.

My background (bear with me):
Wanted to fly from day one. Worked since I could handle a hay bale. Wanted to go to Air Force Academy then fly jets. Eyes not good enough. Work concrete summers in high school and start flying my senior year. Graduate No. 8 and football MVP.
Choice: Play DII or DIII football at a small college or go to state school on academic scholarship.
Decision: Go to Embry-Riddle (more flame bait)
Work three part-time jobs (simultaneously) through college and graduate in 3.5 years Magna Cum Laude.
Choice: Pay more than $8000 for all my instructor ratings or a bit more than twice that to go to Gulfstream.
Decision: I'm already in debt, why stop now?
Paid for the 250 hours, got hired, upgraded and still work a second job to pay my debts. Sometimes I work both jobs in the same day and I have gone five weeks without a day off.

Now I discover this website and find out that I'm not even human and should be ashamed to call myself a pilot.

My point:
At some point we all "Pay Our Dues." I wanted to fly military - couldn't. So instead I worked my a$$ off in non-flying jobs to help pay my bills. Yeah, I skipped instructing, banner-towing, etc. Had I known then what I do now, would I do it get again? Tough call - the jury is still out.

Some clarifications:

- You pay the Academy for 250 hours
- After that, the Airline may hire you depending on its needs - no guarantees
- The Airline doesn't hire FO's that haven't gone through the Academy
- The Airline did hire street captains but stopped due to the high failure rates (note: the majority of street captains we have on property are excellent pilots and quality individuals)
- Not all FO's that come here are low time. I've had FO's with more time than me.
- We have had several military pilots come through; many were street captains (expectedly good ones)
- SCAB = Still Collecting All Benefits, someone who crosses a picket line or never strikes in the first place. Yes, our owner and some of our management our SCABs. Very few pilots here are SCABs, and even less would ever think about becoming one. We are unionized, Teamsters (probably more flame bait), and are in the ratification process of our initial contract.

Beer break.

Most of these posts suggest that the pilots here are low time with no skill. I have flown with FO's with low time, high time, military time, instructing time, jet time, etc. and have found there's no way to judge them by the amount and type of their time. I've had high time guys that suck and no time guys that would put many of us to shame. You say we should've paid our dues by instructing, and that a 1200hr CFI is a qualified commuter/regional FO candidate. We have many pilots here that instructed. There are a couple that I'm sure were great instructors but are missing a few fries in their Happy Meal when it comes to 121 flying. Yet, these are same types you say are "qualified" to sit right seat in an RJ just because they paid their dues.

Pee break.

I understand many of ya'll don't like PFT. But please consider some of what you're slinging. Our pilots, FO's and Captains, are well-trained professionals. Just like any other airline (I've been nervous watching some major crews operate that I have jumpseated on) we have a very small number of pilots that perhaps would be better cleaning the airplanes then flying them. We have good maintenance and an excellent safety record. Anybody that can put up with what we is bound to have good character. We are not all SCABs.

The aviation industry is a very small community. I'm sorry many of you have already judged me yet have not even met me; nor seen how I fly or manage a cockpit. If you ever had the chance, I'm sure you wouldn't being making these unfounded accusations and insults. Perhaps you would, but only behind the mask of your computer.

Beer and pee break.

I wish everyone in our profession the very best. I've taken the steps that I thought were appropriate and I sleep very well at night. In the end, I have only to answer to God.

OPEN FIRE!!

 

[bobbysamd]

Gulfstream non-flame

You sound like a reasonable guy. There is nothing wrong intrinsically with going to Riddle (getting past the Riddle Runaround and other training manager bureaucracy is another matter). There is nothing wrong with choosing flying over football.

"Paying dues" carries a much deeper, philosophical meaning than to only remit money.

Maybe you can give us information on what percentage of Gulfstream "grads" actually go on to real 121 or 135 jobs after their stint there. I've asked that question several times. I'd bet that it's only a small percentage. I'd bet that most "grads" have to step back to something like flight instructing, or cannot find a flying job altogether. What happens to the 250 hours you paid for if you wash out of training? That's a free $19.8K to the company if there is no refund. I made less than that in my last aviation job. I'd bet the company has more incentive to wash out people than to train them to proficiency. Now, if you're refunded money if you indeed wash out, that's another matter.

Come back and update us on your career advancement after Gulfstream, and the reaction your Gulfstream experience draws.

 

[GooodLaaa]

PPP

As a CFI at SRQ i see these guys coming in and out constantly...and constantly(seriously) tower is yelling at them. It seems as the Captains have a student in the cockpit of a turboprop. What a mess. Just today they had to go around. The transmission from Gulflights AC was....NICE PLANNING. After I was cleared back to land I stated it was ironic for them to be a critic. I wanted to suggest to the tower that he should just vector them to limbo.

As an aside, I advertise to my students that I'm flying a C172/ Pipers and have 4 times the TT and experience(Aviation B.S. Degree) those guys have, and then ask them if they want to put their families on the planes. I try to do my part to get the word out. Hope others do too.

Grunting it out the way it should be done,
CJC

 

[sharpeye]

Well, first let me state right off yes I went to Gulfstream through the 250 program. Let me give you a little bit of my background as well. I did the instructing route for almost a year, actually helping start up a flight school. Then where I was working, they were looking into starting a charter but I did not meet insurance requirements to right seat in any of the jets due to no turbine experience. I had about 750TT, about 120ME, formal training in 767 and 757sims totaling about 40hours, none of that counting towards TT. I went down to Gulfstream and started class. In my class there was only one person with 270TT. The rest of the students in my class were all former instructors with from what I remember atleast 6-700TT and a couple over 1000TT. The talk about someone washing out I can comment on for there was one student who just wasn't on the power curve flying the sim. The discussion was raised a couple of times of what to do. I know that if they did wash him out they were going to refund some, not all, of the initial payment. Basically they were going to figure out how much the training he had had up to that point, and refund him the rest. However, what ended up happening was they gave him some extra sim training, and then even extra training in the actual aircraft before his final checkride in the airplane. You must pass a checkride in the sim, then go back to ft lauderdale and get another checkride before you carry passengers. Anyway, I went through the program, got my 250, and now I meet the insurance requirements and have a job flying for a charter company through raytheon's charter management program. As far as FOs finishing the 250 and then leaving gulfstream to go to a regional or somewhere else, I only know of 2 that had done it in the past, however, I know of several of the guys going to comair and other regionals after building some time there, upgrading and getting PIC turbine. When I was there, they were not hiring any new FOs due to 9-11 and guys still out on furlough, however, from what I last heard they were supposed to begin rehiring sometime during summer and were also looking at a deal between them and NWAL to send guys who finish their 250 to them for right seat RJ positions (this after an interview by NWAL and going through their training program). Just some info I wanted to put out and show some people why they go to gulfstream. I met some FOs who I was a little questionable of whether or not they should be flying the plane, but for the majority, I had no problem riding them or family members flying them. I think in every company there are always a few who are a little questionable whether or not they should be there. Who knows. Good luck to all in whatever decisions you make.

 

[bobbysamd]

Gulfstream info

Thank you, sir. Finally, some real information about the place.

I find it interesting that most people in your class had some time built up, thus proving that experience counts, even for P-F-T. I also found it interesting that the place saved that one trainee. They did the right thing apparently, but as a practical matter it saved the place from having to refund his tuition.

Thanks for the post.

 

[Timebuilder]

Indeed, nothing like firsthand info.

I'm glad to hear that some experienced instructors were on hand, but saddened that they felt they had buy that seat.

 

[TurboS7]

I have no problem flying Gulfstream, and I fly them as a passenger all over the place. I would put my family on then in a heart beat, they have done some things that I chaulk to inexperience, but the worse commuter ride I have ever had was on American Eagle out of Miami. The pilot elected to fly directly through a buildup throwing the F/A and all the junk in the airplae to the ceiling. I don't mind rough rides but in this case it was clear blue all the way around the cell. I figured the pilot was trying to build up his instrument time so he could move up to the majors. I have flown GIA and they went around every buildup out there and gave us a very smooth ride in some really rotten weather. All this stuff about PFT is BS, if a guy has the bucks and it gets him to his goal more power to him. I see it no diffrent then someone that sells their body to the military for 4 to 8 years then goes to the majors. As for the quality of experience the check flying, instructing, hard core midwest and NE instrument flying makes you a better pilot, no question. But then I am sure that flying off a carrier at night with an F-18 does the same. Basically this all comes down to flight dicipline, procedures, and airmanship. It doesn't matter where you have come from it is what you have done with what you have. I know 747 pilot's that arn't worth a hoot, and some that are fantastic. I know Scab pilot's that arn't worth a hoot and others that can fly circles around everyone. Maybe this dicussion should lead to what makes a really good pilot vs. bashing an airline or the people that fly for it. We can all profit from a real evalulation of what we are about and what we can do safer. Avbug, DFJ, and others have contributed some great stuff to this board to give everyone a broadview of what aviation and the true pressures that exist are about. Maybe we should all expend our energies in that direction. Got to go....

 

[Rook]

Good post EZ target.


Rook

600' AGL Autopilot on.

'WHEW!'

 

[Timebuilder]

Turbo, I'm glad you had a safe ride on GIA. You certainly have enough experience to recognize a good ride.

I agree the military pilots have indeed paid their dues. I would, however, take issue if military pilots had to pay Uncle Sam for the privelidge of flying for 4 to 8 years, and that's where military flying differs from PFT. If you haul pasengers in the military, none are paying for the privelidge.

I don't agree that paying passengers should be on board, most not knowing that one of their pilots is actually a passenger, too.

As long as PFT has appologists, though, shady operators will be able to take advantage of the rush to seniority.

I have never met a Captain who endorsed PFT, or even a FO at a major airline. If there is truly an apathy toward how you get your experience, I have yet to see it.

One more thing: someone closed the other PFT thread, likely out of frustration. A reminder: this is where an important exchange takes place, in the arena of ideas. Many young pilots are new to the board, and to aviation in general. If no one here stands up and points out the negatives of a particular type of operation, then we accept the risk of those operations becoming more commonplace.

I believe that such a trend would be a great detriment to our industry. For you posters who think that this anti-PFT post is because I didn't have the money, think again. I had the money, and some experienced older pilots led me in the right direction. I think we owe it to the newbies to pass that leadership along.

What makes a good pilot? Maybe, it starts with caring about aviation.

 

[GIACAPT]

Re: Gulfstream info

Thank you, sir. Finally, some real information about the place.


"Finally"

Did you not read the direct responses to your questions that I posted?

 

[flydog]

How do you furlough a Gulfstream FO? Wouldnt you hire more if they are paying money to be there?

 

[GIACAPT]

P.S. GIACPT is a moron!

Ah, a personal attack. Pure genius. Yeah, that's the way to disaggree.

Can you imagine your future FO stating "Captain, we were only cleared to 12,000 (as you blast through it)."

Checks,
What will you do, call him a name?

 

[Timebuilder]

GIACAPT
I won't presume to speak for Bobby, but I read your post. I thought it was a good one.

I particularly like the part where you shared that most in the class were experienced instructors, and yourself helping to found a flight school. No doubt, you gained a great deal of valuable experience in the process.

Most of the Gulfstrem discussion here on the board revolves around the GIA route as an alternative to instructing, and I think that would be a mistake for many young pilots.

Thanks for helping to bring the guys you flew with up to speed. I credit your instructing background for giving you the means to do so.

Oh, EZ Target-

I hope you noticed that I have made no personal attacks, on you or anyone else. What I deplore is the operator, scab or not, who sells a job that pilots have a right to expect should be a paid, trained position, and where passengers have a right to expect two quality people, perhaps GIACAPT and yourself at the controls, working as dedicated employees.

Paid employees.

 

[PositiveRate]

Timebuilder et al...

"One more thing: someone closed the other PFT thread, likely out of frustration. A reminder: this is where an important exchange takes place, in the arena of ideas. Many young pilots are new to the board, and to aviation in general. If no one here stands up and points out the negatives of a particular type of operation, then we accept the risk of those operations becoming more commonplace. "

Your Time: 1029

The other thread was closed for good reason...it's a baseless debate. Reading through this "discussion" (for pure lack of anything beter to do at the moment), I have seen many intelligent posts countering the negative PFT propaganda you and your buddies spam out. These posts are from high timers who have weathered the storm of an aviation career. Their points are thought out, logical and open minded.

Get over it already. Focus on progressing your career instead of whining about the path others take.

How can you be so opinionated and "in the know" at 1000TT+/-?! This is the time soak it all in...experience as much as you can so as to learn and grow as a pilot. Make the most of your environment, be it a seminole, a 1900, or a freighter. I'm 22 with 1400TT and have flown the 121 line, been furloughed, and been rehired by an even better company because of sheer persistance....you do what you need to do in this business to succeed. Enable others to help you and encourage and help aspiring aviators whenever you can.

If, during an interview, a captain asked you (or any of the other PFT Police) and an actual PFT'er what your thoughts on that method of building time were...and let's say you answered that it's a degredation of professional flying and a disgrace, blah, blah, blah....and then the other guy thought for a minute and said...well for a number of reasons, namely, x,y,z i felt this was a good choice for me and as a result it has allowed me to grow as a pilot and experience the 121 environment while at the same time honing my skills to the professional standards demanded by leading airlines like yours, etc...

well. you wouldn't get the job and he would.

I pute my vote in to close this forum.

 

[bobbysamd]

Hey, GIACPT . . . .

I thought that I acknowledged your insightful comments earlier. Yes, you did provide some good information and insight about Gulfstream. I second Timebuilder's comments above about your dedication.

That dedication is another reason why I deplore P-F-T and perhaps the airline hiring process as a whole. H.R. tends to hire by the numbers. It looks at certificates and ratings, time, and age. It does NOT look at the whole person. That's too hard for these coneheads to do. It would require them to think and reflect. Sometimes, you have an applicant who may not fit the profile 100%, but, if you'd give him/her a chance, you'd get a loyal, dedicated and steady employee who would be grateful forever that you gave him the chance. It's a pity, and wrong, and unfair that such people oftentimes must stoop to having to buy their chance. It is so wrong.

I'm the first to admit that life isn't fair. An airline pilot whom my parents met once told them there are pilots who are hired and pilots who are not hired. No, life is not fair.

Once again, thanks for your excellent comments.

 

[PositiveRate]

"What I deplore is the operator, scab or not, who sells a job that pilots have a right to expect should be a paid, trained position, and where passengers have a right to expect two quality people..."

Write a letter if it irks you that much...

It's a free market, capatalist society...that means, GIA and other PFT operations are free to make money as they see fit...within the confines of the law and the FARs of course.

Get in the game if you want, but don't sit on the sidelines commentating on every move of the players.

There, I'm done.

 

[PositiveRate]

ok, i'm not done....

"That dedication is another reason why I deplore P-F-T and perhaps the airline hiring process as a whole. H.R. tends to hire by the numbers. It looks at certificates and ratings, time, and age. It does NOT look at the whole person. That's too hard for these coneheads to do. It would require them to think and reflect. "

I'm sorry, you don't know what you're talking about. Truly, I sympathize with you if you had a hard time geting in the door when things sucked back in the day, but that is not the way hiring works....more importantly, try not to spoil it for all the aspiring pilots who might be following this thread. The certificates, time, etc. get you in the door. It's YOU...the person that will get you the job. YOU includes personality, intellect, logic, willingness to learn, humor, and general likeability.

Don't obsess over dumb stuff like this. Worry about becoming a really good pilot and learning from mistakes when the inevitably happen. Worry about growing as a person too. It's only cool to be bitter once you're union ;-)

 

[GIACAPT]

Sayonara

PositiveRate has a good point.

I must bid farewell as the horse is, indeed, dead.

I sincerely enjoyed the exchange. This board is just like many facets of life. The majority of the players have their head and heart in the right place but there are a few that try to bring the populous down to their level.

The folks like BobbySamd, Timebuilder, Fixin2land (hilarious name), PositiveRate, EZTarget, and many others are for whom this forum exists. They are people who can disaggree and still know it is not the end of the world.

I personally feel you can tell a lot about a persons character from the way they treat their enemies. Or, in this case, how they interact when under the guise of a screen name.

I only wish I had x-ray vision so I could avoid the petty people on this board in the real world. They are the pilots with whom I would not let my family fly. Their attitudes are symptomatic of personality traits that are usually found in the wreckage.

Great people talk about ideas.
Small people talk about people.

 

[PositiveRate]

My idle day is done, and like GIACAPT...I'm outta' here too.

Good luck to all in the future.