Anyone fly for Gulfstream out there?

[flint4xx]

Maybe you anti-PFT people can get your college paid for by your future employer too. What about letting your future employer buy your ATP and all of your hours for you too? I know, since you're so worthy, why don't you just sit at home and wait for the recruiters to come to you. Everybody must pay their dues one way or another.

As for SW, the ENTIRE training program is set up for people with a MINIMUM EXPERIENCE LEVEL that includes alot of hours and being typed. It's short and intense. The company doesn't want to pay for washouts in training. Yes, it saves the company some money. It also allows the company to pay profit sharing and give job security. It also helps to promote the team player mentality. Everybody else had to go through the same thing to get here.

SO if there wasn't a type required and the competitive minimuns were 5000 of jet 121 time, what would you complain about then? You would still have to "pay" to get here.

Every employer has the right to set their own minimum qualifications. What about JetBlue requiring time in aircraft over 20,000 lbs.? What about Delta and military guys, or United and minorities?

To quote Bob Crandall, "This is a dirty rotten business." Get over it. The whining should stop at the gate.

 

[FlyinHigh]

Bobbysamd, regarding your question...

"Gulfjoke is also good, to go along with Gulfscab and Scabscream.

I'd love to know, though, in all seriousness, if any Gulfstream "grads" have gone on to real regional jobs.


Last edited by bobbysamd on 03-30-2002 at 05:23"
=====================================

I'm not sure of how many "grads" have gone to real regional jobs but several of us "grads" have gone to American, United, Delta, Northwest, Continental, Southwest, ATA, UPS, FEDEX, Airborne, DHL and USAirways. Other airlines don't focus on PFT. They focus on the quality of your flight time and experience. Fly safe, build your PIC Turbine time, don't cross a picket line and you should do OK.

If you were civilian, you paid for your training from the start. Do airlines really care if you bought your flight time at Embry-Riddle, Gulfstream, or some other flight school? They are more interested in the experience you've gained from whatever quality flight time you have accrued. Consider Gulfstream a graduate degree of ME turbine time a student doesn't yet have. If they had it, they wouldn't be applying to Gulfstream, a place that requires a down payment of upwards 20K!

I don't think anybody considers Gulfstream a "real airline" nor a place to make a career. It is a place to build quality PIC turbine time and valuable experience in a short amount of time; a stepping stone to another regional or major airline.

Good luck to all...

 

[bobbysamd]

Gulfstream "grads"

Fair reply. I appreciate your comments.

Several questions, then, and if these sound like sarcasm I don't intend it to be; I just want some information.

Does Gulfstream ever turn down any applicants, even though they have the $20K in hand? Must trainees put down only a deposit or must they fork up the entire $20K up front? Do any trainees ever wash out? And, if so, are they refunded any portion of their deposit or tuition? Can a person apply for a non P-F-T FO position at Gulfstream after completing the P-F-T portion? Does Gulfstream upgrade its FOs to Captain?

I honestly am seeking information and in no way am trying to incite a flame war. I don't like to see people ripped off or taken advantage of because they have an intense desire for a real flying career, such as I had at one time. I cannot abide the notion that paying money is the only way to get a job. I also appreciate your comment about not crossing a line.

 

[350DRIVER]

Out of over 2000 views we have only "one"Gulfjoke grad come out of the closet..... Yeah and you guys surely are "quality" as you put it-

by the way since you seem to be so "proud" of where your "quality" grads have went on to after Gulfjoke then go ahead and list a few numbers then..... BUT wait since "they" told you this coming up with "factual" figures would be impossible for you to do- nice try though...lol gave quite a few here another good laugh.....

 

[AWACoff]

The majors did/do hire people with just 1900 time. Great Lakes is another example. I'm guessing in Gulfstream's case that many of their captains were street captains. If that is true, we shouldn't be degrading the captains. They are simply doing their job. I do know of one FO who PFT'd at Gulfstream and later on became a "captain" for Gulfstream after getting 1500TT. He was the same person with a lack of morals I wrote about earlier in the thread. I'm sure he isn't the only one *CLARIFICATION*...isn't the only one who has upgraded after being an FO at Gulfstream. Flying single pilot while handicapped with a low time "FO" is not an easy job. Imagine flight instructing in the conditions we encounter on the line. It's not easy, I'm sure.

 

[350DRIVER]

I would have to assume that 1900 time is viewed as "gold" by most major airlines- due to the lack of an autopilot on board the 1900 the majors know that they are getting a sharp stick. No one has ranked on pilots who fly the 1900 INSTEAD this thread has concentrated on the whole Gulfstream system...

Awac I agree with you completely about the Gulfstream guys who were hired off the streets that "earned" the job and are now stuck babysitting the handicapped underachievers who "bought" or "rented" the right seat out.... I respect those guys who came off the streets to the utmost and I can only wish them the best however it is a true disgrace to the industry as a whole that a program of Gulfstreams magnitude is continuing to prosper and make its owner even that much richer.......

cheers....

 

[bobbysamd]

Gulfstream Captains

Absolutely. I agree with the above regarding Gulfstream captains. The place undoubtedly is a great education in CRM for them.

I don't quite understand the 1900 comment. As an example, Mesa sent plenty of 1900 (and Brasilia) drivers to the majors before it got jets. It's still 121 PIC multi turbine time. That certainly doesn't grow on trees and, to my knowledge, cannot be purchased.

 

[GIACAPT]

Anger Management

To answer bobbysamd’s questions:

-Applicants sometime do get turned down for training. Somewhere around the first or second day you go to a sim eval and they check you out there. I don’t know what percentage but it is low.
-The money is paid all at once after the sim eval.
-People do washout and their refund is on some scale based on where they are in training.
-Toward the end of your 250 hours a pilot goes to an interview and brings recommendations (if collected) from captains. Just like any other interview some are retained that should not be and others that most definitely should be hired are not. Go figure.
-As for upgrade, about 85% of present captains are former FOs. Street captains are rare.



Now for the general reply to the thread:

350Driver... is that on microsoft?
AWACOFF...your name says it all. Top notch, really top notch.

It is easy to see maturity and position(CA/FO) by the posts.

As for the figures of what pilot goes where, who knows but here is what I can recall in the past 2-3 years.

COex-several in '00 and '01
Airtran-constantly going
Spirit-2 or more
Air Wisc.-several
Comair-several
ASA-at least two
Delta-one maybe more
United-a couple before they flushed the pool
SWA-at least 4
Midway-oops
Peidmont-4 or 5
Eagle- a handfull
FedEx-one
UPS-at least 2
DHL-1 or more
TWA-before- 2
American-a bunch
ACA-more than 3
Vangaurd-a handfull
Frontier-1
NWA-1


This thread reminds me of schoolyard banter "your shoes are brand “X”..." or click-ish harassment. Some of the comments made above open a window into the writer’s character. It is precarious to paint 150 pilots with one brush. I am curious of how those individuals would respond if similar comments where made toward their pilot group.

I often forget about the small percentage of humanity that has a need to look down on someone or some group. I prefer to look up. Some of the stories I find here are amusing; “ My captain actually said…” (my eye) “We let him ride anyway.” (don’t you mean to say that the CAPTAIN let him ride?)

Many refer to the PFT FO at GIA as a radio and flap operator. In reality, most of them hit the line with good skills and the radio is their biggest challenge. We don’t have an auto-pilot and they fly every other leg just like everyone else.

Who is to say which way is the “right way” to progress to the regionals or the majors. With that mentality, teaching the art of flying with virtually no experience is a bit ironic. The terms “stone” and “glass house” come to mind.

Some people on this board use the word “Scab” freely without thought. This word incites strong feelings in some so please don’t use it so freely and inappropriately. Sure our lineage is steeped in controversy, but we are not all like our “parents”. Hell, by the time you figure out your “parents” aren’t popular you’ve already been born. I know we have “scab” roots and some remaining “scabs” at the company. They are few in number. Does this mean all of us are “scabs”? Moreover, are we the only company with these folks among us?? I didn’t think so. Why is it that no one is angry with other carriers (large and small) that have “scabs” in their ranks?

The bottom line is that I took this route not knowing what was in store. Now I am making the best of a less than perfect environment. PFT sucks, no doubt! But I disagree that it is the scourge of the industry that some will promote.
Hopefully my reply will illustrate that all of us at GIA are not inept, jerks, idiots, scabs, or wealthy. Although you will find a smattering of each, as you will at your airline if you look closely enough.

Pilot groups are like a families, we all have our black sheep.


(P.S.)
SWA= PFT!? Come on. Whoever considers SWA PFT because they require a type must (with that logic) consider EVERYONE with an FAA certificate a PFTer. If they want to rule out the serious from the not-so-serious future employees, it’s their prerogative. They seem to be doing something right. Requiring a type almost guarantees no washouts in captain upgrade. We all know that in any interview you are being screened as a future captain. Which is pretty important since they will be continuing to grow in the wake of poorly managed airlines. I can’t imagine where those other airlines obtain their flawed management style…

Take your job seriously, not yourself.

Humbly,
GIACAPT

 

[bobbysamd]

Hey, GIACPT . . . .

Good counterpoint.

Can you give a percentage of those who are actually turned down after the sim eval? Can you give a percentage of those who are hired after completing the 250 paid hours? I appreciate your "go figure" comment and your comment on how P-F-T sucks.

How is the training? Are trainees given help or encouragement, or is it a gauntlet? I realize this is a subjective question. I am concerned that people would be so harassed that they are either failed out or quit. I realize there are non-P-F-T airlines who take that kind of approached.

My opinion is not likely to change about ANY job, aviation or not, where you have to pay for training, but this is turning into a good discussion.

 

[GIACAPT]

I am always up for a healthy exchange. I know how a lot of folks feel about PFT and I am, by no means, trying to change anyone's mind. I just want to convey that we are not all bad. Hindsight is 20/20.

As for the percentage of those rejected after the sim, I would say approximately 5-10%. I am no cheerleader for the company but in (most) cases people who don't belong in an airplane get weeded out. Unfortunately there are instances...

The percentage for those hired by the company after 250 depends on GIA need and ability. Again, there are always exceptions to the rule. Prior to 9/11 i would say the percentage was somewhere in between 70-90%. Of course, since the bombings, it has been 0%.

The training is good enough. In my opionion, based on friends at other places, it is similiar to anywhere else. Attitude determines a lot. Imagine any airline where a person was having trouble and they blamed everything but themselves. They would have a shorter walk to the door than someone who was highly motivated and constantly striving to improve.
It isn't a gauntlet, but in the early days/weeks, it is firehose style stuff. Captain training is reputed to be tough but I enjoyed the experience. I think spending 1200 hours or more in the right seat can be useful or a waste depending upon the individual.
Our street captain wash-out rate was as high as 50-60% when they where hiring them.

You where correct when you said 121 turbine pic time does not grow on trees. Most of the captains here are former FOs and the rest are comprised of a few street captains and some old salts that have made GIA a home.


Disagreement is not necessarily a bad thing.