Anyone fly for Gulfstream out there?

[bobbysamd]

I'm not done, yet . . . .

My friend, I indeed know what I'm talking about. I tried for six years to get a commuter job. I was plenty persistent; in fact, I sent some commuters resumes for all six years I tried for jobs.

I was close to 40, older than most commuter applicants. I changed careers long before career changing was in vogue. I started by sending stuff before I was qualified, and updated as I approached quals, when I earned new certificates, a new rating, and as I added time. I updated, and updated. I followed all the recommended advice about applying for jobs. I did have interviews, but for the overall output of paper I received very few responses and way fewer phone calls. I was as qualified as people who were nearly half my age; they were the ones who were hired.

Just imagine how you would feel if you were competing for a job with people who were nearly half your age but with otherwise identical qualifications, and these people got the job and not you. Once again, same qualifications except for age. I doubt that you would jump for joy. It's called age discrimination. I experienced it. It didn't take my abilities as a pilot or rocket scientist to figure it out.

I agree with you that it is your personality, intellect, logic, willingness to learn, humor, and general likeability that gets you through the interview. No matter how well you disguise it, your age can be figured out from your resume. So, how do you get to present your personality, intellect, logic, willingness to learn, humor, and general likeability when someone uses age to bar you from that chance?

Age discrimination is another form of prejudice. I wish you all the best. I hope you meet your career goals. And, I most certainly hope that you never have to experience age discrimination.

 

[kilomike]

Excellent posts, Bobbysamd and Timebuilder. Well said.

 

[Timebuilder]

Positive Rate,

You asked a question, and it deserves an answer.

>>How can you be so opinionated and "in the know" at 1000TT+/-?! This is the time soak it all in...experience as much as you can so as to learn and grow as a pilot. Make the most of your environment, be it a seminole, a 1900, or a freighter. I'm 22 with 1400TT and have flown the 121 line, been furloughed, and been rehired by an even better company because of sheer persistance....you do what you need to do in this business to succeed. Enable others to help you and encourage and help aspiring aviators whenever you can.<<

To answer the question in the first sentence: regulars here know that Bobby and I have similar backgrounds, we are both former broadcast journalists. I also did newspaper work, talk radio, acting, and a dozen assorted occupations as I gathered my life experience. Speaking for myself, I have navigated a meandering course from the time when I was 22. I had some pretty strong opinions then, and they were based mostly on "feelings" about the world and how I related to it. Eventually, I had to come down from my ivory tower and integrate factual experiences, empirical evidence, and hard-won insight into my opinions, and they changed dramatically. Even so, my opinions are stronger than ever. I try to temper them. Point: I learned to dig for facts.

Maybe you missed my post(s) explaining how I reached my conclusions about PFT. I sought out the opinions of professional pilots, people who had already flown more hours, and in a greater variety of equipment than I could hope to achieve in the short time that will constitute my career. Some of these guys had flown in WWII. Some flew Cubs before they could drive, before there was an FAA. I think they constitute a group of experienced aviators. They include my father, who flew in the Royal Canadian Air Force, and his friend who was a B-29 pilot in our own Army Air Corps.

I'm glad that a guy as young as yourself has already garnered the experiences you have mentioned. Well done. The point of these posts is to share opinons, based on facts, albeit anecdotal, regarding the pros (easy to identify) and the cons (not so easy to indentify) for other potential pilots on a controversial topic. This is one way to help aspiring aviators navigate some potentially tricky airspace on their way to a career. If I had made one or two different decisions in my teens, I might have been the 50 year old captain sitting across the desk from you at your next interview, smiling in my crisp Delta uniform. Or, I could be under a marker at Arlington. Only hindsight is 20-20.

Perhaps our culture is changing enough that eventually PFT will be a normal step for pilots. I hope that day never arrives, at least in my lifetime. This is just another conversation among pilots, and you can take from it what you will. I have found that those older pilots have a lot of wisdom, and I try to pass some along here.

I hope that clarifies things a little.

 

[bobbysamd]

Thanks, Timebuilder. I couldn't say it better.

Positive Rate and I discussed our exchange privately. He understands where I'm coming from. He's a nice guy and will do well in this business.

Time to reflect. My father, of blessed memory, told me when I decided to change careers that I should have made that decision ten years before, when I was 26. I could have P-F-T'd, just as other older career-changers might be doing. We've had plenty of posts from older folks, impatient maybe, who want their chance before it is "too late" and opt to P-F-T. Maybe I'd have attained my goals if I did. But it wouldn't have felt right. Just my instincts, born out of life experiences, work experiences, gut feelings, and pride, told me that something you work hard for means more in the long run than something for which you don't work hard. If it isn't worth putting forth the effort, it probably isn't worth it. Compare it to not studying for a test, working up a crib sheet, and getting an A. It's empty. It means nothing. Call me old-fashioned.

Really, this has been a good discussion. Hope people got something out of it

 

[TurboS7]

What you are talking about is a midwestern work ethic. Enjoy the process, my best memories are horsing a loaded BE-18 off a runway at MDW in the middle of the night. Landing a 206 on a beach at Bristol Bay, and being the last to land at DTW in the fog before they shut the airport down in an Aztec. All this modern junk isn't aviation it is just a job. I read a good article in AOPA April about type ratings and PFT. It might get you to your goals quicker but you will miss smelling the roses along the way.

 

[Timebuilder]

Agreed.

I sense Positive will do well, also. He's well on his way, having already accrued some great experience.

That work ethic aspect is KEY. That's why I mentioned our changing culture. In the not too distant future, this important idea could be lost for more and more instant gratification. We are already suffering from Future Shock (Alvin Toffler, 1970) as we are Slouching Toward Gomorra (Robert Bork, 1999).

Hopefully, it will be pilot groups who will resist social entrophy more effectively than others.

 

[publisher]

for the most part

for the most part, you guys are right. In an ideal world, one struggles through the CFI, then flies check runs and auto parts, then maybe moves up to a regional and then on.

We are really not in disagreement on that part.

I just had a guy in my office, 34 just got his CFI rating. Has plans to marry and had worked in responsible positions in other industries and wants to give it a try.

What he does not have is the time that it took someone earlier in life who started early to instruct full time, no where near enough to support him and wife. If he works somewhere, it will really restrict his ability to instruct. If he instructs, no marriage and no finances.

Frankly I think this guy is a candidate for an accelerated program. He is mature, knowlegeable, and all the things that one needs to be a pilot. He will not get there in the senario you would have him in.

 

[GIACAPT]

I was going to sign off for good from this thread but it was getting a little rich again.

Someone said a few pages back "there are many ways to get from point A to point B". soak that in for a while

Just because you think PFT is wrong doesn't mean it's a fact. The fact is that the most vocal people against PFT are instructors. Why is that. They seem to feel that the only way to progress in this business (with the coat of distinguished honor that they seem to feel they warrant) is the CFI route.

There are many, many other ways and places to gain experience and pay dues besides the right seat of a Cessna.

Again, there are many paths. What about these "prep" programs that cost a bundle and get a junior birdman hired at any one of a number of regionals?

Sure take aim at GIA, you might even have some of us (most of us) taking pot-shots along with you. However, to say (imply) that the PFT route is for scabs, losers, dishonorable people, or those without a work ethic is just plain horse-hockey.

If you are happy with the path you have chosen, great! However, why waste the energy on us if we are so lowly?


Some points to ponder:

Hipocracy
It is ironic that those who feel PFT is such an abhorent path in this career think it is completely logical to get a new CFI ticket and preach the gospel of the sky as if you have been in it for a hundred years.

Safety
The military can train junior birdmen to fly mach 2 (literally) in 300 hours. I think maybe, just maybe someone with 250 hours can be a productive crewmember at 240 knots.

Perspective
Doctors get out of medical school and are practicing medicine right away. Actually, they start playing doctor before they get out of med school. They are under the guidance of resident physicians however. Sounds a lot like a captain and co-pilot, huh?
Under the logic many of you subscribe to they didn't earn it unless they:
where a candystriper in highschool
an EMT in college
got a scholarship to pay for med school


I thought being a military pilot was the only way to the airlines. When I learned of PFT it showed me there was another route at my age. I hope to get my CFI someday though, when I feel that I have enough experience to pass on...


So long.

 

[350DRIVER]

GIACAPT-

Opinions are just that "opinions"- why not allow people to think,believe, and feel what they want to feel towards certain companies who preach PFT and strive on it.? Why ask why?
Do you need the reassurance in "your" mind to justify your actions and the path that you took.??

If you are happy with what you have done in aviation to get where you are today then that is all that should matter however you are in NO position to attempt to change someone's beliefs towards a company- I would have to say that a majority of your posts are nothing but "opinions" and thats fine if you are happy with what you said BUT you should not try and convince someone else about what you "feel" is right....

And its not just a matter of "taking aim" as you put it-much more is involved which you seem to be neglecting.... Look at what the experienced aviators are saying from this board, what airlines that you jumpseat on "or try" to are saying as well as an entire aviation industry and you may be able to open up your horizon..

cheers & enough said

 

[Airline Pilot27]

Sorry but...

I apologize to Gulfstream pilots if I seemed a little calous in my post on the first page of this subject. In responses to Gulfstream related issues I tend to get a little carried away. Gulfstream pilots handled themselves in a mature manner by responding to many such posts. For that I will give you credit but the facts remain:

- By paying 18000 dollars you are potentially depriving a qualified pilot to occupy that seat.
- By paying to fly you hurt not only the CFI but the commuter pilot seeking to increase his pay and quality of life. (how am I supposed to ask for a raise when a competing airline has pilots paying to perform that JOB)

Therefore it is a fact that you sirs are damaging our proffession. I have been in this industry long enough to see flight instructors teach for free to get students. To see pilots paying for training. To see pilots scab and become ostricized. But, in my opinion, to actually pay a company 18000 dollars to fly a revenue generating aircraft, just to get ahead is the most of selfish acts in our industry today. I am sorry but that is how I and many others that have "been there" feel.

 

[TurboS7]

I started this whole thing when I was 16 years old, I started flying professionally at the age of 18. I supported and paid for my college education by flight instructing. If I were at a position of being 33 and wanting to start a new career with a wife and a family and I had the cash, PFT is the only way to go. I can attest that until you get into the seat of a large airplane you will not make the kind of money you need to pay the bills. I don't mean the majors but any large aircraft. The big airplanes pay the bills. I made 60k flying Learjets and now with the 737-800 I get paid 88K per year with OT and a lot of hard work. I know this is just chicken feed for our major airlines friends but I am in the minor leagues and more than not I will stay here. I just don't have that much time left. I have flown a solid 500 hours per year since I started, so you guys can figure out my age. I agree with the previous post, if you don't have the time PFT is the way to go. If you do have the time to smell the roses and and get some great experience along the way, more power to you. The bottom line is getting to a job that you can pay the bills and give you one of the other pleasures in life-raising a family. There is nothing in the world like watching your high school son hit a home run.....nothing.

 

[Timebuilder]

Intersting, GIA.

NONE of the people who talked me out of going PFT were instructors. They were experienced aviators who ended up flying for majors after a host of experiences. No one paid for the priviledge.

Both military pilot trainees and medical residents are some of the most highly screened people on the planet. They are atypical, and that is why they are so successful. Both receive pay during this phase of their training.

As I have said, this board is a group of pilots who are sharing opinions and perspectives based on insight and experience. The more we can get together on the same page, the better off we will be in the long run. Keeping the new pilots informed about this topic helps to make it less prevalent.

As for age as a deciding factor: there is no one here who is as old as I am (of those who have posted) and I am not going to go PFT just because I have less time to burn than a 22 year old. I want to follow the advice I have been given because I value the source of the advice, not because I am working as an instructor.

 

[Sppedmode]

I think I'm sorry I even started this thread...

The only thing I don't understand about PFT is the fact that it is faster for older guys to build time. I don't agree, I instructed 800 hours in 12 months had 1200 total and 200 multi in less than 18 months from getting my pvt.

The other thing is what you learn about yourself from instructing. Its one thing to get through a checkride or what not, but when you are responsible for teaching a pvt or intr. student, you really have to know your $hit. I learned more from instructing than I ever did getting all my ratings. You find out your limits in the airplane by letting the student control the a/c until it's time for you to take the controls. Lets face it, when you become a capt, f/o's are going to be looking to you to teach them something new.

When I go on 3-4 day trips with capts, I wait and ask them thier background on the second or third day. I can always tell who was an instructor, who was military, and who just built their time on there own or PFT. The pilot who instructed always ends up teaching me something new about the airplane or gives me tips on flying. All are usually very tactful and careful not to intimidate or put others down. Again, just an observation...

To me, PFT is just taking the easy way out...even if you have the money and are 30-40 years old. You will learn so much more if you instruct to get your hours and feel better about yourself :

 

[Freight Dog]

The big airplanes pay the bills. I made 60k flying Learjets and now with the 737-800 I get paid 88K per year with OT and a lot of hard work.

Uh oh... maybe walking instead of crossing would have been better, yeah?

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T for older people

As always, I read Pub's comments with interest. The fellow to whom he refers, at age 34, can still become qualified with having to resort to an "accelerated" program.

I was going on 38 when I got my first full-time aviation job. It was flight instructing at ERAU. I will say that going in I had 1340 hours and 51 of multi, so I was ahead of a lot of folks except for multi. Of course, it is multi PIC that matters. Within a year, I had over 2200 total and 270 of multi and my ATP. In those days, 1989, I was light in multi - and that was during a hiring boom and another alleged pilot shortage. Today, I might have had interviews with my 270 multi hours. A year and half later, my totals stood at 2650 and 565 multi. Most people needed 500 hours of multi in those days to be competitive - again, during a hiring boom and alleged pilot shortage. I actually turned down an interview with a commuter because I had signed a contract with Riddle. I interviewed with the same commuter later.

Get in with the right place and you can build time and go on to greener pastures.

I'm not saying that instructing is the only way to build time. Instructing is a time-honored, traditional, entry-level aviation job. If you can find real work doing other flying right out of flight training at 250 hours, more power to you. As a practical matter, instructing is about the only entry-level job available to most 250-hour pilots (MAPD notwithstanding).

Unless I don't understand how the medical profession works, although you are an M.D. upon graduation from medical school, you are still supervised closely as an intern and resident. You are not really practicing medicine. You are "practicing" medicine. And, you are paid.

As always, just more opinions.

 

[172driver]

The debate is hilarious but I keep coming back to the same thought. I'd sure hate for my little sister to be on board if something happened to the captain! What if something happened to the captain and the a/c? 250 hrs of flying shiny new airplanes doesn't expose the FO to much...lost comms, system failures, ice, t'storms, or even IMC for that matter.

Trained in South Florida too...what do these guys have...3-5 hrs of IMC time? Oh well, I guess hood time is the same thing, right?
I can just see the FO experiencing the leans for the first time with a load of passengers.

BTW...I don't see why Comair is grouped with GIA throughout this thread. Yes, the academy is owned by the airline but the CFI's there pay their dues the same as anywhere else... 152's in the middle of a hot, sticky FL summer for 1000+ hrs with no guarantee of a job at the end.

 

[bobbysamd]

Comair differentiation

Good point which should be made, again. Comair may be associated with the airline and does offer "the interview," but it is still just a large flight school. The certificates earned there can be marketed anywhere.

Same with MAPD, even though its training is very Mesa-specific. One would need a CFI or something to get a job if not hired by Mesa.

 

[BoredToDeath]

172driver wrote:

BTW...I don't see why Comair is grouped with GIA throughout this thread. Yes, the academy is owned by the airline but the CFI's there pay their dues the same as anywhere else... 152's in the middle of a hot, sticky FL summer for 1000+ hrs with no guarantee of a job at the end.

Many years ago Comair was the biggest PFTer of them all. Once you were hired I think it cost something like $12,000 to get the job. The only difference was that you got to keep the job after 250hrs unlike Gulfscum.

I felt for the instructors back then, they did work hard, but I belive they worked hard enough to not have had to shell out more of mom and dads money to be an airline pilot.

 

[publisher]

Bobby,

Bobby,

My example is still valid... Right now, it may not be possible for someone with a newly minted CFI to get much work in the area that this fellow lives. That year and half or so you are talking about is one thing when you are single and have few responsiblities and another when you have a mortgage.

Your statement=== get in the right place-- may not be that easy for someone.

Furthermore, not all programs are really PFT. Tab Express offers an accelerated option which, whether you like it or not, is certainly not PFT.

I can see the argument on the GIA case, the paying for a job that would supposedly go to another paid pilot. That does not mean that there are not other programs like the Airnet program or TAB's that help you get there faster.

While instructing is certainly meritorius, the fact is that a whole bunch of people would have skipped that part if they could have.

Flying checks single pilot night IFR in a Beech Baron between CMH and CRW and CLT through the winter will get you sharp too. All without having to put up with a student.

 

[sharpeye]

172Driver:
This post is mostly for him, sorry guys.

" I'd sure hate for my little sister to be on board if something happened to the captain! What if something happened to the captain and the a/c? 250 hrs of flying shiny new airplanes doesn't expose the FO to much...lost comms, system failures, ice, t'storms, or even IMC for that matter.
Trained in South Florida too...what do these guys have...3-5 hrs of IMC time? Oh well, I guess hood time is the same thing, right?"

I just want to reply to that comment real quick: First the 1900s aren't new and shiny. Do they have problems, system failures? I experienced a couple minor ones while flying them just like there are with any airline. Did I experience ice, sure did, several times, even in good old florida. IMC? several times again, passengers even got sick due to a bad thunderstorm we had to fly through since it was too big to go around, get the radar set up, find a line between the stronger cells and work your way through. I know you only have 600 hours, and right now I only have a little more than 500 over you, does that make me a better pilot, who knows, but I think I have more experience in different situations then you. In a previous post on this subject, I said I was an instructor, did it for around 8 or 9 months, helped start up a flight school along with some training programs, went to gulfstream to get turbine time so I could go back to my old company and fly on a charter they were setting up with raytheon. Know what? After the sim training at gulfstream, they were talking about getting me type rated in the 1900 and do instructing since there weren't any permanent positions availabe due to 9-11. I must have done something right when they failed my engines, put them on fire, gave me the low oil pressure, electrical fire, had me fly through a level 5, failed both my engines and then failed my gear, in IMC, and still was able to follow the glide slope and put it down on the runway. I'm not trying to brag, I've had a lot of sim training in the past in T-37s, 727s, 757s, and 767s full motion sims.

To be honest, I don't care whether or not people agree or disagree with PFT. Someone in an earlier post told GIACapt I believe that he didn't have the right to try and change people's minds about PFT and Gulfstream, but isn't that what everyone else is trying to do on this board?? Just that they are trying to convince everyone that PFT is wrong, and GIACapt just happens to be in disagreement. Everyone has their own opinion. Do some major airline pilots dislike gulfstream? I would have to say probably quite a few, but I've met some who could care less, some who ask who are they, and some have even told me they hate it, but they don't hold anything against people who go there. Everyone has their reasons to go there, some better then others, but they do. If you get a position where you are able to hire someone, why not give them a shot, put them in a sim, test their abilities, if they took it as a fast route and still can't fly, I'm sure you'll be able to tell. But I think it is safe to say I think you would be surprised. We all went through the same checkrides the FAA mandates for any airline in any airplane. If they don't perform they aren't allowed to continue until they do. I know this for a fact for I saw it happen to someone.

Please finish up with the personal attacks because you do not know anything specific about the company except from what you have heard, you don't know what kind of conditions the guys fly through. I'm sure most of your time is spent in VFR weather since probably most is flight training, I did the same thing when I was an instructor so your IMC time might be down, but just like any airline, as in gulfstream, if there is a flight scheduled it leaves no matter what the weather is, unless the airport is closed. It makes for some fun and exciting flying. Good luck to you.